Cwm Prysor - 'The Bala Branch'

[Tom F]

Tom,

That’s a really neat paint tin rack. It looks laser cut. Was it a one off, or is it commercially available?

Edit: not sure what a “pain tin” is, but it sounds unpleasant!

Found it on eBay, so should be commercially available Simon.

[Tom F]

Hornby AA15 body repainted (annoying they have put unusual allocation patches on their latest releases, meaning a repaint has been in order).

 

 

Transfers tomorrow but most likely she will represent an AA19 of Ruabon (most Bala freights would originate from Ruabon).

[Regularity]

Found it on eBay, so should be commercially available Simon.

There are a lot of them, some for specific brands...

 

Got one by MK Hobby.

[Tom F]

There are a lot of them, some for specific brands...

 

Got one by MK Hobby.

 

 

That's the one!

[Regularity]

To my eyes, they look the same colour, it’s just the 1955 one, the Toad looks grubbier.

It’s all an interpretation after all.

 

It is indeed, and that makes judging colour and tone so much more difficult from monochrome pictures.

Also, lettering in different positions suggests a repaint somewhere along the line.

[Tom F]

Morning all!

 

I’d appreciate some advice.

I’m looking at the carriage workings for some of the Wrexham-Bala services as seen here:

 

I’m wondering about the meaning of the X plus would a Van Second be what I’d think as a Brake 3rd?

[KeithHC]

Does not SX mean Sunday or Saturday excepted.

 

Keith 

[Tom F]

Does not SX mean Sunday or Saturday excepted.

 

Keith

 

Yes I believe so, I’m wondering about the X marked after the coach type, i.e Second X.

[jwealleans]

'Van' was quite a common term for what the LNER called 'brake'.  So yes, Van Second would be what a proper railway called Brake Third.

 

No idea what the X signifies - non-vestibuled?  The LMS used it to indicate fitted freight stock at one time, but passenger stock would have been fitted by definition.  Dual braked woudl also have been irrelevant by this time.

 

Mr. Foren?

[Tom F]

'Van' was quite a common term for what the LNER called 'brake'. So yes, Van Second would be what a proper railway called Brake Third.

 

No idea what the X signifies - non-vestibuled? The LMS used it to indicate fitted freight stock at one time, but passenger stock would have been fitted by definition. Dual braked woudl also have been irrelevant by this time.

 

Mr. Foren?

Thanks Mr W!

 

That makes sense regarding Van Second....otherwise there wouldn’t be a Brake in the train! The X could indeed indicate none vestibuled by this time! Let’s hope Mr Hornby may produce something otherwise I might be coming begging to you!

 

I’ll try and grab some shots of the actual train for reference. I’d combine two particular diagrams to represent two different trains, diagrams 15,16 and 19.

 

 

I’ve messaged Mr Foren too.

Edited December 24, 2018 by 9793

[Regularity]

No idea what the X signifies - non-vestibuled? 

 

Classic case of everyone knowing what it meant at the time, so it isn’t clearly written down! Or at least, if it is written down, not in a manner which is clear to us.

But if it signifies non-vestibuled, would they need to exclude 70’ stock?

Pure speculation, but it could be for eXpress (vestibuled/side corridor?), from eXtra (spare) stock, or even that it doesn’t matter what type of stock it is.

 

Any photos Tom, either that you can comment on, or link to/paste?

[jwealleans]

Is there not a glossary at the start of the book?

[Tom F]

Is there not a glossary at the start of the book?

Possibly, but I don’t have the book! I’m hopefully seeing the chap it belongs to in a few weeks.

[St Enodoc]

Thanks Mr W!

 

That makes sense regarding Van Second....otherwise there wouldn’t be a Brake in the train! The X could indeed indicate none vestibuled by this time! Let’s hope Mr Hornby may produce something otherwise I might be coming begging to you!

 

I’ll try and grab some shots of the actual train for reference. I’d combine two particular diagrams to represent two different trains, diagrams 15,16 and 19.

 

99BCF6B4-2E67-4E13-AFCD-4B8A747D9ADF.png

 

I’ve messaged Mr Foren too.

Tom, I can't help with the 'X' but note that each of the diagrams you mention is headed "2 D.W." which is an abbreviation for 2 Day Working. In other words, sets 15 and 20 each consist of similar sets of three coaches, rotating through the two diagrams (likewise for sets 16 and 19). For example, on Monday the first set of three coaches works diagram 15 and the second set works diagram 20, while on Tuesday the first set works diagram 20 and the second set works diagram 15. Unless these two sets of coaches need to be on the scenic part of the layout at the same time (which I don't think they do) and as long as you aren't worried about the actual coach numbers, you could use a single set of coaches for both diagrams.

[martinT]

'Van' was quite a common term for what the LNER called 'brake'.  So yes, Van Second would be what a proper railway called Brake Third.

 

Ah - but the GWR differentiated between Van 3rds & Brake Thirds! To quote from the July 1925 Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains:

'Brake-thirds with Van-ends are described in this Programme as Van-Thirds, and Brake-thirds with brake compartment in centre are described as Brake-thirds.'

The same Programme marked non-gangwayed stock with a '+'.

 

However by September 1948 things had changed a bit. A Bristol Division Carriage Programme has the instruction: 'Carriages marked X must be corridor stock' - which may be your answer.

 

HTH

Martin

[Tom F]

Ah - but the GWR differentiated between Van 3rds & Brake Thirds! To quote from the July 1925 Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains:

'Brake-thirds with Van-ends are described in this Programme as Van-Thirds, and Brake-thirds with brake compartment in centre are described as Brake-thirds.'

The same Programme marked non-gangwayed stock with a '+'.

 

However by September 1948 things had changed a bit. A Bristol Division Carriage Programme has the instruction: 'Carriages marked X must be corridor stock' - which may be your answer.

 

HTH

Martin

 

 

That does indeed help Martin!

 

Thank you!

 

I suspect coaching stock changed, as the photos I have are mostly from 1958-1961 as the stock appears Non Corridor. The carriage working that we are referring to is from 1956. However with Hornby Collett's readily available, this may have made my life a lot easier!

Edited December 24, 2018 by 9793

[Tom F]

Here is another oddity for some carriage buffs!

 

My WTT I'm looking at is the Summer 1956 timetable. The carriage workings I took photo references from I believe is also from 1956. The 1.5pm Wrexham-Bala and 3.25pm Bala-Wrexham is marked in the WTT as 'Rail Motor', which I presume means 'Auto Working'. See below

 

 

However under Diagram 6 of the Carriage Working, it suggests the train is made up of Van Second and Second. It also brings in a Brake Composite to be used later on for the 5.45pm Bala-Wrexham train (for School Pupils).

 

 

I'm somewhat confused that this is marked as a rail motor in the WTT but the carriage working is suggesting otherwise. I've photos of the Bala-Wrexham auto train in the 1950s, (dates including 1957 and 1958).

Wouldn't the carriage working specify 'auto coach' rather than 'van second and second' (especially as they are shown with an X for Corridor Stock). Could an auto coach train run with a 'Brake Comp' at the rear?

Perplexed a bit.....but loving this kind of research!

[Captain Kernow]

I'm somewhat confused that this is marked as a rail motor in the WTT but the carriage working is suggesting otherwise. I've photos of the Bala-Wrexham auto train in the 1950s, (dates including 1957 and 1958).

Wouldn't the carriage working specify 'auto coach' rather than 'van second and second' (especially as they are shown with an X for Corridor Stock). Could an auto coach train run with a 'Brake Comp' at the rear?

If there's one thing I've learned during my career on the 'big' railway, it's that terminology used by British Railways and the like is sometimes rather different to that used by model railway enthusiasts, even if referring to the same thing.

 

Although I don't specifically know the answer to your question, Tom, is it perhaps possible that the term 'van second and second' could refer to auto-fitted vehicles? I believe that some (?all?) autocoaches had a guards compartment?

Edited December 24, 2018 by Captain Kernow

[JZ]

Days of the week are usually abbreviated to M, T, W, Th, F, S, Su. So SX is Saturdays excepted..

[Tom F]

Days of the week are usually abbreviated to M, T, W, Th, F, S, Su. So SX is Saturdays excepted..

 

 

Hi JZ

Yes I'm aware of what SX refers to, it was the X marked after coach types, which has now been verified to mean Corridor Stock.

 

 

If there's one thing I've learned during my career on the 'big' railway, it's that terminology used by British Railways and the like is sometimes rather different to that used by model railway enthusiasts, even if referring to the same thing.

 

Although I don't specifically know the answer to your question, Tom, is it perhaps possible that the term 'van second and second' could refer to auto-fitted vehicles? I believe that some (?all?) autocoaches had a guards compartment?

 

 

Hi Tim

 

Thanks for that, it's a bit puzzling but I'm wondering if an Autocar could be referred to as a 'Brake'. Also the 1.5pm is shown to have a Brake Composite attached at Wrexham which is left at Bala for the 5.45pm for school students. I presume non auto coaches could run with an auto train, but obviously the loco would have to be at the front.

Edited December 24, 2018 by 9793

[Regularity]

Hi JZ

Thanks for that, it's a bit puzzling but I'm wondering if an Autocar could be referred to as a 'Brake'.

 

Doesn’t have to using the auto fittings. Autocoaches were used in normal service, for example on the Lambourn branch, where there were ground level halts because of the retractable steps.

Also the 1.5pm is shown to have a Brake Composite attached at Wrexham which is left at Bala for the 5.45pm for school students. I presume non auto coaches could run with an auto train, but obviously the loco would have to be at the front.

The autocoach could still be at the front: just the non-auto stock needs to be at the rear of the train, so could be autocoach-engine-others or engine-autocoach-others.

[tanatvalley]

The 1.5 pm Wrexham to Bala and the return departure from Bala at 3.25 pm to Wrexham are shown in the 1st October 1945 until further notice CWP as part of the roster for No. 2 Croes Newdd Auto and 2 trailers. There is a note ‘A’ against the 3.25 pm working that Third, Van Third attached for Bala scholars - Saturday’s and school holidays excepted.

 

Do you have photos of the auto train workings for your 1956 CWP?

 

GWR and BR CWPs for Chester Division are extremely rare. I only know of 3 - GWR 1922, GWR 1945 and BR WR Summer 1957. The BR one was included in a display in the 1980s held at Bala Museum (?).

 

‘X’ is corridor stock.

[Tom F]

The 1.5 pm Wrexham to Bala and the return departure from Bala at 3.25 pm to Wrexham are shown in the 1st October 1945 until further notice CWP as part of the roster for No. 2 Croes Newdd Auto and 2 trailers. There is a note ‘A’ against the 3.25 pm working that Third, Van Third attached for Bala scholars - Saturday’s and school holidays excepted.

 

Do you have photos of the auto train workings for your 1956 CWP?

 

GWR and BR CWPs for Chester Division are extremely rare. I only know of 3 - GWR 1922, GWR 1945 and BR WR Summer 1957. The BR one was included in a display in the 1980s held at Bala Museum (?).

 

‘X’ is corridor stock.

 

 

Many Thanks for that Alan, I think with the help of yourself and others....we are getting there.

 

The CWP on the pages I took photos of shows nothing regarding Auto trailers.

 

It could be that the one I took photos of was the 1957 book you mention. Part of me then would consider that maybe the autos had stopped, but there are two photos of the Wrexham-Bala Auto dated 1957 and 1958 in Martin Williams 'Ruabon-Barmouth' book.

[Pteremy]

The same thing happened on the Exe Valley - a general shortage of auto trailers (partly as a result of withdrawal of the most elderly ones) meant that from 1958 ex main line corridor stock was used instead/as well - auto trailers didn't disappear completely, but for a while were in the the minority. Then as more modern auto trailers became available (as other lines were closed or turned over to DMUs) their use increased from 1960 onwards until by the winter 1962 timetable services were predominantly auto trailers again. 

[big jim]

Hot off the press!!!

 

Derek Lowe (co author with Martin Williams of the new 'Bala Branch' book) has just emailed me to say that the book has arrived (days early) at the Lightmoor Publishing warehouse. This means it will most certainly be available for purchase at Warley this weekend.

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-bala-branch/L8474

 

9781911038474.jpg

Picked up the bala branch book for my Dad today from Ian Allen for Christmas, let him open it earlier as I won’t see him tomorrow and he’s absolutely made up with it, he says he knows one of the co authors, Martin so will get him to sign it for him

 

I only just happened to spot it as I was walking out of the shop, glad I stopped and picked it up