Cwm Prysor - 'The Bala Branch'

[Captain Kernow]

Just now, The Johnster said:

I believe they were allocated to Shrewsbury and Croes Newydd in those days, and are hence by no means impossible at Hereford, though they'd have struggled to time anything like a heavy train over Church Stretton; this was a busy main line and they would not have been popular with the signalmen.  Borrowing for an out of the way goods only branch would be a matter for Rule 1, but it would certainly be in line with some of the work they did out of Croes Newydd.

You, Sir, area a Gentleman and a Scholar!

 

Thank you.

 

[The Johnster]

I stoutly deny either of those accusations...

 

Many of my ex girlfriends will assert that I am anything but a gentleman, and my ex teachers will affirm that I am not a scholar!

 

Glad to be of assistance, though, o captain my captain.

[Tom F]

Well, I won't be buying one anytime soon (would love to) but the layout is the priority. Maybe one day I'll have my D5011 working into Bala with it's demolition train.

 

Today, I've begun dismantling the fiddle yards off Cwm Prysor (don't panic, everything will be back up tomorrow evening). Hindsight is a wonderful thing, if I had left Cwm Prysor on the original side of the shed, then all would have been fine. The reason I moved Cwm Prysor to the other side of the shed....was should finances allow a second shed, I'd model Trawsfynydd, so I moved CP over to the opposite side of the shed back in October.

However, I realised in the new year, I could do something far more interesting should I extend and Cwm Prysor was back where it originally started. Now there's a chance I might never have a second shed.......and Cwm Prysor and Bala will work on their own quite happily. However, should finances allow...a second shed could house the Ruabon- Barmouth and Bala Junction.

As I say,  it may not happen....and things will be fine as they are, but Cwm Prysor had to move now before the Bala boards arrive....it was now or never!

[Brinkly]

Evening Tom, 

 

I meant to ask you, did you have 'custom' made boards from Tim Horn? They do look rather good. I have a set of Tim's original 3ft by 1ft, making 9ft by 1ft in total length, but it is too narrow for anything meaningful in 4mm. What are the dimensions of Cwm Prysor if you don't mind me asking.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Denbridge]

On 21/04/2019 at 11:29, 9793 said:

 

Thanks Tim!
It's an incredible runner! I have it until next Saturday, and then the client comes to pick it up along with a few more HUO hoppers....however he is bringing me a 47 to weather!

I have finally made my mind up on DCC sound, it certainly adds something to the operation. I'll be contacting a certain gentlemen who is operating at York this weekend to see about getting one of my 57XX/8750s sound chipped. 

As for the identity, 9752 comes to mind, she worked the last goods train on the branch in 1961.

DCC sound is awesome in diesels. However I've yet to hear a 4mm steam engine that sounds realistic. The small speakers just can't deliver the wide range of sounds that capture a convincing steam loco sound.

[Worsdell forever]

I've seen 'the building'.

 

It's rather nice.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Denbridge said:

DCC sound is awesome in diesels. However I've yet to hear a 4mm steam engine that sounds realistic. The small speakers just can't deliver the wide range of sounds that capture a convincing steam loco sound.

Sound is one of the greatest potential areas for DCC to improve the believability of our layouts, and videos of Phil Bullock's blue diesel era layout Abbott's Wood opened my eyes to how good it is with diesels.  But I've yet to hear steam sound that cuts the mustard for me; there seems to be a conception that if the loco makes a white noise panting sound like a sheepdog with asthma 4 times every driving wheel revolution, that's enough.  It isn't.

 

Steam locos at work in service make all sorts of different noises according to their valve setting, cut off, regulator setting, and how hard they are working, and that's just from the chimney.  Safety valve noises are different on GW locos with the Swindon standard safety valve cover, which tends to project the noise directly upwards and give the illusion from below that the loco is quieter than other types, so from a modelling point of view you have to determine whether you want the impression of listening to the loco from the lineside or a platform, or an overhead location such as a bridge or hillside.  This does not even begin to address all the other noises steam locos make, sometimes when they are not moving, from leaks and components expanding and contracting as they heat up or cool down, or all the bangs, clanks, and rattles when they are in motion.

 

Different valve gears and piston stroke length/crank throw combinations also had a part to play; for example, Churchward style GW locos are said to 'bark' rather than chuff when they are working hard, which means that the 'attack' of the noise wave from the chimney as it reaches your eardrums is sharper and more pronounced than other types

 

Different chimney, smokebox, and internal draughting also makes for subtle differences between classes of locos.  3 cylinder locos (at least us GW types don't have to worry too much about these) have 6 exhaust beats per revolution, Maunsell's Lord Nelsons had 8, and those 3 cylinder types with Gresley/Holcroft conjugated valve gear famously made some very funky syncopated interpretations when the valve settings were out or a bit worn (it don' mean a thing if it ain't got that swing).  Preserved locos are usually far too well looked after for this sort of thing, but if you are modelling LNER/NER/ER or the ex LNER areas of Scotland in the steam era it needs to be taken into account; in fact whatever you model the effect that high mileage and wear had on what a loco sounded like needs to be taken into account for any layout with steam locos that does not represent the preservation era.

 

Steam DCC sound is, IMHO, 'not there' yet, but will no doubt continue to improve.  To be fair a system that encompasses all of the noises I have described in a way that responds to how hard the loco is working dynamically by measuring the load on the drawhook rather than monitoring the current consumption of the motor, which is not necessarily the same thing at exactly the same time, is a big ask, but this is what is probably needed!  The tiny speakers are not helping it though, even in 7mm, and I would like to see, I mean hear, this experienced through headphones of decent quality; this could give a very realistic binaural effect...

 

I know folks are going to respond to this with examples of speakers that they say are very good for their size, and no doubt some are, but as soon as one considers something to be good for it's size one has already accepted it's inadequacy.  The bandwidth of the frequency response required to simulate the sound of a big loco getting under way with a heavy load is simply beyond any speaker than can be fitted aboard a model railway locomotive, hence the asthmatic panting and the white noise safety valve blowoff.  This is why I would prefer hi-fi quality headphones to be used; the silly little 'ear buds' that mobile phones are supplied with ain't gonna cut it!

[Regularity]

Videos of DCC sound of any sort are always disappointing: witness the squeakiness of the standard two-tone horn.

 

But bandwidth aside, there are lots of soundfiles which are actual digital recordings of specific locos, and clearly advertised as such, so some of your criticism is ill-informed. These are combined with sophisticated programming, too. 

There are also many sound files set up to allow coasting, to varying the “attack” and volume of the exhaust sound, and for this to vary with the load on the loco: Soundtraxx have been producing “dynamic digital exhaust” for some years now. So again, there is no need to chuff to a stop, and although the load is not measured at the drawhook, it is measured by back emf.

 

I am not aware of a system which allows the operator to adjust the cutoff as well as the regulator to not only drive the loco, but also the sound. Not yet. I suspect it may come along in time. The issue is in dealing with the time-lag between the adjustment of the controls and the response to the load. That’s possible, but it requires more development in terms of controls (in terms of ergonomics, to have a “proper” reverser rather than forward and reverse), sound recordings (to show the impact of cut-off on the bark) and programming (to integrate these with the load, and the degree of inertia simulation assigned to the loco). All of this is technically possible, but it requires some fundamental changes to how recordings are made and to the control interface. 

 

But other than the valid points about speaker size and what boils down to poor bass response, steam sound is a lot further advanced than you seem to think is the case

 

[Martin S-C]

I would class the post above Regularity's as "rivet counting for sound". Asking for all that within the next ten years is somewhat silly, unless you have about a grand per loco to spend and have a pet electronics and acoustics engineer at your beck and call.

 

What controller on a model allows for cut off adjustments? None. So why ask for cut off sound?

 

Lets not place the bar unreasonably high.

 

Its a matter of personal preference. I have sound fitted in all my steam locos and find most of them delightfully convincing. Its all about a case of how much "convincing" one needs. If I'm in a 25ft by 12ft room with 3 or 4 steamers working away around a big layout, absolutely acoustic accuracy is wholly irrelevant because you are not going to hear it among the other ambient sounds of people talking and so on. If you want to talk about things like acoustic shadow which is the subject raised with the Swindon safety valves then you need to apply that argument to every sound - diesels as well. Your last paragraph immediately classes all diesel sounds as inadequate as well, and many of us know that isn't the case.

 

Each to his or her own of course, but please don't suggest steam sounds are not good enough yet - I can assure you they are - for some!

Edited April 22, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Tom F]

6 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

I've seen 'the building'.

 

It's rather nice.

 

Looks even nicer on the layout! 
Rather happy this evening!

 

 

Bob Dawson has done a wonderful job! 

 

[Regularity]

39 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I would class the post above Regularity's as "rivet counting for sound". Asking for all that within the next ten years is somewhat silly, unless you have about a grand per loco to spend and have a pet electronics and acoustics engineer at your beck and call.

 

What controller on a model allows for cut off adjustments? None. So why ask for cut off sound?

 

Lets not place the bar unreasonably high.

 

Its a matter of personal preference. I have sound fitted in all my steam locos and find most of them delightfully convincing. Its all about a case of how much "convincing" one needs. If I'm in a 25ft by 12ft room with 3 or 4 steamers working away around a big layout, absolutely acoustic accuracy is wholly irrelevant because you are not going to hear it among the other ambient sounds of people talking and so on. If you want to talk about things like acoustic shadow which is the subject raised with the Swindon safety valves then you need to apply that argument to every sound - diesels as well. Your last paragraph immediately classes all diesel sounds as inadequate as well, and many of us know that isn't the case.

 

Each to his or her own of course, but please don't suggest steam sounds are not good enough yet - I can assure you they are - for some!

I think you miss my point, Martin. Based on previous interactions with you, possibly wilfully.

I actually stated that there wasn’t a controller currently available that allowed for cutoff adjustments, and that it would have to be developed along with the appropriate sounds being recorded or modified, so you comment was entirely superfluous.

As for “rivet counting for sound”, if it’s meant pejoratively it wasn’t taken as such.

I search for realism in my modelling.

That may take the form of an accurate representation of the rivet pattern on, for example, a tank side, but not necessarily the exact same number: textures are more important here. I would like to be able to drive my models in a more authentic manner, too. So why not be able to use DCC to do this? Why not be able to specify the haulage class of each engine, then input the load equivalent setting to dynamically alter the inertia simulation settings? I then have to drive according to the capabilities of the engine and the lad put upon the drawbar. Why not then add the ability to set the cutoff as well as the regulator to determine the way the loco behaves? Similarly, with the brake - and quite a lot of this was possible when I was more than 40 years younger, for example with the Digitol Gemini controller with DC. To have the sound file adjust accordingly to these settings would be the icing on the cake. Unfortunately, some DCC sound files are more customisable than others, and so far learning to reprogram them is something too close to earning a living for me to find an attractive proposition at the moment.

Sound like pie in the sky? Maybe, but some of us like to have a vision for how things could be, not how they are. And for diesel locos, this is already available (at least, for North American outline):

http://www.protothrottle.com/

 

The main point was that steam sounds are a lot better than The Johnster says. A lot lot better, including the ability to coast and not chuff to a stop.

 

I think you may have been responding also to The Johnster, as I didn’t mention acoustic shadows or diesel sounds, in which case we are in accord.

 

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, Tom, but steam sounds are already a lot better than The Johnster’s pontification suggest, particularly with such sound files as those created by the likes of Paul Chetter. What’s needed next is a better controller to take us even closer to the driving experience: which may or may not require tweaks or enhancements to existing sound recordings.

 

If bass response is an issue, wire up your DCC so that the feed to the motor goes to your track, and set up an amplifier and larger speakers under the layout to give you the sound. Perfectly possible, though any issues you have with DC will continue as before.

 

There is always a solution. It may not be ideal, but that’s where rivet counters and idealists come in: we push the envelope, and everyone else gets better models as a result.

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

11 hours ago, Regularity said:

What’s needed next is a better controller to take us even closer to the driving experience: which may or may not require tweaks or enhancements to existing sound recordings.

 

Whatever the technological state of digital steam sound in however many years time and assuming the ability to replicate each aspect of driving a steam loco keeps pace, this will make for some rather concentrated operators at exhibitions, I suspect.

 

What larks!

 

What a brilliant job he's done of that station building, Tom. It really makes the scene.

 

[vulcanbomber]

13 hours ago, 9793 said:

 

Looks even nicer on the layout! 
Rather happy this evening!

 

 

Bob Dawson has done a wonderful job! 

 

I like the model figure is it ModelU or Dart?

[Tom F]

41 minutes ago, vulcanbomber said:

I like the model figure is it ModelU or Dart?

 

All figures on the layout are Modelu. The figure on the platform with the dog, is my actual late father who was scanned 6 months before he died. The dog is also my actual border collie, Lass.

The lady by the crossing keepers house is one from the Modelu Pendon Range. She is to represent Mrs Davies, who lived at the cottage. She was a bit of a nuisance to Iorworth Roberts, the signalman at Arenig. I have it from a reliable source that she would ring him regularly to tell him the train was on it's way.......of course the signal indicator already told him this information, and his response in strong Welsh was along the lines of 'I couldn't give a f**k!'

[Tom F]

Special thanks to my friend Simon Roberts who after stewarding alongside me at York yesterday, came back and helped me move Cwm Prysor back to the other side of the shed.

 

Everything is operational again, and this morning I've bedded the PW Hut and one of the station outhouses into place. Any how, I'll keep quiet and let the photos do the talking.

 

 

 

 

[leopardml2341]

18 hours ago, Regularity said:

Videos of DCC sound of any sort are always disappointing: witness the squeakiness of the standard two-tone horn.

 

But bandwidth aside, there are lots of soundfiles which are actual digital recordings of specific locos, and clearly advertised as such, so some of your criticism is ill-informed. These are combined with sophisticated programming, too. 

There are also many sound files set up to allow coasting, to varying the “attack” and volume of the exhaust sound, and for this to vary with the load on the loco: Soundtraxx have been producing “dynamic digital exhaust” for some years now. So again, there is no need to chuff to a stop, and although the load is not measured at the drawhook, it is measured by back emf.

 

I am not aware of a system which allows the operator to adjust the cutoff as well as the regulator to not only drive the loco, but also the sound. Not yet. I suspect it may come along in time. The issue is in dealing with the time-lag between the adjustment of the controls and the response to the load. That’s possible, but it requires more development in terms of controls (in terms of ergonomics, to have a “proper” reverser rather than forward and reverse), sound recordings (to show the impact of cut-off on the bark) and programming (to integrate these with the load, and the degree of inertia simulation assigned to the loco). All of this is technically possible, but it requires some fundamental changes to how recordings are made and to the control interface. 

 

But other than the valid points about speaker size and what boils down to poor bass response, steam sound is a lot further advanced than you seem to think is the case

 

 

18 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I would class the post above Regularity's as "rivet counting for sound". Asking for all that within the next ten years is somewhat silly, unless you have about a grand per loco to spend and have a pet electronics and acoustics engineer at your beck and call.

 

What controller on a model allows for cut off adjustments? None. So why ask for cut off sound?

 

Lets not place the bar unreasonably high.

 

Its a matter of personal preference. I have sound fitted in all my steam locos and find most of them delightfully convincing. Its all about a case of how much "convincing" one needs. If I'm in a 25ft by 12ft room with 3 or 4 steamers working away around a big layout, absolutely acoustic accuracy is wholly irrelevant because you are not going to hear it among the other ambient sounds of people talking and so on. If you want to talk about things like acoustic shadow which is the subject raised with the Swindon safety valves then you need to apply that argument to every sound - diesels as well. Your last paragraph immediately classes all diesel sounds as inadequate as well, and many of us know that isn't the case.

 

Each to his or her own of course, but please don't suggest steam sounds are not good enough yet - I can assure you they are - for some!

 

16 hours ago, Regularity said:

I think you miss my point, Martin. Based on previous interactions with you, possibly wilfully.

I actually stated that there wasn’t a controller currently available that allowed for cutoff adjustments, and that it would have to be developed along with the appropriate sounds being recorded or modified, so you comment was entirely superfluous.

As for “rivet counting for sound”, if it’s meant pejoratively it wasn’t taken as such.

I search for realism in my modelling.

That may take the form of an accurate representation of the rivet pattern on, for example, a tank side, but not necessarily the exact same number: textures are more important here. I would like to be able to drive my models in a more authentic manner, too. So why not be able to use DCC to do this? Why not be able to specify the haulage class of each engine, then input the load equivalent setting to dynamically alter the inertia simulation settings? I then have to drive according to the capabilities of the engine and the lad put upon the drawbar. Why not then add the ability to set the cutoff as well as the regulator to determine the way the loco behaves? Similarly, with the brake - and quite a lot of this was possible when I was more than 40 years younger, for example with the Digitol Gemini controller with DC. To have the sound file adjust accordingly to these settings would be the icing on the cake. Unfortunately, some DCC sound files are more customisable than others, and so far learning to reprogram them is something too close to earning a living for me to find an attractive proposition at the moment.

Sound like pie in the sky? Maybe, but some of us like to have a vision for how things could be, not how they are. And for diesel locos, this is already available (at least, for North American outline):

http://www.protothrottle.com/

 

The main point was that steam sounds are a lot better than The Johnster says. A lot lot better, including the ability to coast and not chuff to a stop.

 

I think you may have been responding also to The Johnster, as I didn’t mention acoustic shadows or diesel sounds, in which case we are in accord.

 

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, Tom, but steam sounds are already a lot better than The Johnster’s pontification suggest, particularly with such sound files as those created by the likes of Paul Chetter. What’s needed next is a better controller to take us even closer to the driving experience: which may or may not require tweaks or enhancements to existing sound recordings.

 

If bass response is an issue, wire up your DCC so that the feed to the motor goes to your track, and set up an amplifier and larger speakers under the layout to give you the sound. Perfectly possible, though any issues you have with DC will continue as before.

 

There is always a solution. It may not be ideal, but that’s where rivet counters and idealists come in: we push the envelope, and everyone else gets better models as a result.

 

 

 Is this really the place, especially considering the second sentence of the most recently quoted post?

 

I visit this thread to see what Tom is doing,  DCC pros and cons are better aired in that area of the forum?

 

Maybe a topic in DCC sound (with a link to that area) will allow those who want to follow the discussion to do so without it detracting from Tom's excellent modelling.

 

 

[Denbridge]

18 hours ago, Regularity said:

Videos of DCC sound of any sort are always disappointing: witness the squeakiness of the standard two-tone horn.

 

But bandwidth aside, there are lots of soundfiles which are actual digital recordings of specific locos, and clearly advertised as such, so some of your criticism is ill-informed. These are combined with sophisticated programming, too. 

There are also many sound files set up to allow coasting, to varying the “attack” and volume of the exhaust sound, and for this to vary with the load on the loco: Soundtraxx have been producing “dynamic digital exhaust” for some years now. So again, there is no need to chuff to a stop, and although the load is not measured at the drawhook, it is measured by back emf.

 

I am not aware of a system which allows the operator to adjust the cutoff as well as the regulator to not only drive the loco, but also the sound. Not yet. I suspect it may come along in time. The issue is in dealing with the time-lag between the adjustment of the controls and the response to the load. That’s possible, but it requires more development in terms of controls (in terms of ergonomics, to have a “proper” reverser rather than forward and reverse), sound recordings (to show the impact of cut-off on the bark) and programming (to integrate these with the load, and the degree of inertia simulation assigned to the loco). All of this is technically possible, but it requires some fundamental changes to how recordings are made and to the control interface. 

 

But other than the valid points about speaker size and what boils down to poor bass response, steam sound is a lot further advanced than you seem to think is the case

 

It doesn't matter one bit how good sound files are. The problem is that in small scales, it is currently impossible to transfer that  into a realistic within the model. I'm not convinced it will ever be possible.  The only realistic steam sounds I've heard were installed into Gauge one German steam locomotives. Even then I believe they also used speakers under the baseboard to create the sound.

[GWR8700]

Very much looking forward to seeing the extension to Bala.  I love layouts that contain a few seperate parts of a line, feels much more like a whole railway.

[leopardml2341]

1 hour ago, GWR8700 said:

Very much looking forward to seeing the extension to Bala.  I love layouts that contain a few seperate parts of a line, feels much more like a whole railway.

Tom will know what I'm talking about, but Geoff Taylor's "Barmouth Junction" is a fine example of that genre.

[Tom F]

2 hours ago, GWR8700 said:

Very much looking forward to seeing the extension to Bala.  I love layouts that contain a few seperate parts of a line, feels much more like a whole railway.

 

Thanks! Well hopefully we will have the boards come end of May/ beginning of June.

 

1 hour ago, leopardml2341 said:

Tom will know what I'm talking about, but Geoff Taylor's "Barmouth Junction" is a fine example of that genre.

 

Quite right Andy, Geoff's layout/layouts has been a massive inspiration (modelling quality alone) and how the trains actually go on a real journey. 

 

I believe Geoff's layout is in this months Hornby Mag.

[St Enodoc]

On 23/04/2019 at 18:14, Captain Kernow said:

What a brilliant job he's done of that station building, Tom. It really makes the scene.

Bob is, and has been for about the last 40 years, one of the best in his field. His trademark was always the use of computer "chads" to make brickwork. When the advance of technology rendered these unobtainable I believe that he found a way to make his own.

[Regularity]

On 23/04/2019 at 14:57, leopardml2341 said:

 

 Is this really the place, especially considering the second sentence of the most recently quoted post?

 

I visit this thread to see what Tom is doing,  DCC pros and cons are better aired in that area of the forum?

Well, firstly, I apologised for the hi-jack.

Secondly, sweeping and erroneous generalisations had been made, which I corrected. As Tom has hinted that he is at least intrigued by the possibilities of DCC sound, this was the correct place to make the correction, but ultimately he has to try it out for himself and decide but it’s surely better he starts with correct information?

I’ll ignore the other posts where people made a point already accepted.

[Martin S-C]

Possibly of some interest Tom, I saw Black Lion Crossing at York and snapped a few pics of Geoff's weathered wagons. I hope the images are of some use to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom F]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Possibly of some interest Tom, I saw Black Lion Crossing at York and snapped a few pics of Geoff's weathered wagons. I hope the images are of some use to you.

 

 

Hi Martin

Thank you greatly for posting those photos. I saw Black Lion Crossing briefly, but between stewarding and catching with friends, I didn't see enough of it. I've got all of Geoff's lovely books, although a number of photos are black and white, so it's lovely to see them in glorious technicolour. I'll save them onto my lap top if that is ok with yourself?

I managed to have a chat with Geoff, I've known him a few years going back to when there use to be the Retford running days. A lovely gentleman, and I'd say along with Ian Fleming, are the inspirations into my interest in wagons and rolling stock. I showed Geoff a couple of my recent 16Ts and he passed some very nice comments. 

 

Between commission work, I'm finally getting around to weathering an LNER 12T van I built a few years ago. Hope to have it finished over the weekend, and also some vital work that needs patching on the back scene ready for John Shaw to paint.

Edited April 25, 2019 by 9793

[Tom F]

Those wonderful posted images by Martin of Geoff Kent's stock have got me thinking about wagons and vans this evening. I did a nice deal with Ian Fleming on 6 Bachmann Presflos, which gives me a good dozen for the layout in total, I've also got enough 16Ts to keep me busy.

 

My baxuite van fleet need increasing though. I have plenty of Bachmann models to be work on in due course, and a few kit builds awaiting transfers. I mentioned I am working on an LNER 12T (Dia94). This is her current state (just a rough iPhone image), more washes work to follow:

 

I picked up these two books at York Show. A bit further south than I'm modelling, but the colour late 50 and early 60s photos are priceless reference material, in particularly from a weathering perspective.