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Brake vans with engines of different livery


GreenDiesel
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During the steam era, would it have been common to see a brake van of one livery pulled by an engine of a different livery? For example, would one have even seen a GWR engine hauling a goods train with (say) a Southern Railway or LMS brake van? Just curious -- thanks!  Rob

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I dare say it would have been possible for a while on some through freights, in the same way that some locos carried BR markings on their pre-nationalisation liveries. It would not be the large LMS or SR though as the large lettering was changed in the mid 1930s to much smaller lettering.

Edited by Poor Old Bruce
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If the OP has in mind the pre-Nationalisation era* then I think it would have been very unusual for the brake van - and guard - to be supplied by any other than the company operating the train, whether over its own line or by exercising running powers over another company's line. In most cases, a goods train would have been handed over, and most probably remarshalled, at the exchange sidings between the two companies. I believe it was different for passenger guards, who in some cases worked through with their train rather than being relieved at the frontier station.

 

Poor Old Bruce seems to have in mind the post-Nationalisation era, when I believe there was some migration of goods brake vans. In Firing Days at Saltley, Terry Essery recounts travelling in brake vans of "the North Eastern type" - though by this he might mean a BR standard van - and a Great Western one, remarking on the large verandah. He is writing about the ex-Midland lines (LMR, Midland Division) around Birmingham in the 1950s. As POB says, such vans if not repainted would most likely be in late Grouping livery, with small lettering - though I suspect this would have been blanked out and replaced with BR markings.

 

*Were brake vans pooled during WW2?

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*Were brake vans pooled during WW2?

Elsewhere we have been discussing GWR usage of brake vans. They were allocated to individual Guards and therefore 'depots' until IIRC sometime in 1942 when this was abandoned. Whether this led to pooling I still rather doubt but an interesting question for someone to investigate.

 

Paul

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Possibly on a joint line ?

 

Even on 'joint' lines there would be demarcation over who was responsible for what! - being a 'joint' line did not mean a fee for all amongst the relevant partners.

 

On the joint GWR / GC line into London for example only one of the partners would be responsible for the working of goods traffic at intermediate stations (the revenue from which would be split up in accordance with various legal agreements). Yes both GWR and GC / LNER goods trains and brake vans would be seen - but the owners of the brake vans would match that of the loco hauling the train.

 

As has been noted due to the guards compartment in passenger trains usually being included in a coach full of passengers / parcells, the swapping out of guards accommodation at places where trains transferred from one company to another was impractical - otherwise it would have been done with these trains too.

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Possibly on a joint line ?

The Severn and Wye Joint Railway was operated using GWR locomotives and MR brake vans pre grouping. Post grouping I think the GWR supplied both head and tail for the trains and the LMS just collected their share of the dosh.

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I dare say it would have been possible for a while on some through freights, in the same way that some locos carried BR markings on their pre-nationalisation liveries. It would not be the large LMS or SR though as the large lettering was changed in the mid 1930s to much smaller lettering.

............ yeah - but it did take a while for the old 'large' insignia to disappear : I guess brake vans might have been a higher priority for repainting than the humble-but-vital open goods or mineral wagon but some of those certainly retained the old lettering at nationalisation - don't forget the paintshop staff had better things to do between 1939 & 1945 !

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The Severn and Wye Joint Railway was operated using GWR locomotives and MR brake vans pre grouping. Post grouping I think the GWR supplied both head and tail for the trains and the LMS just collected their share of the dosh.

 

I suppose this would be a case where the division of joint responsibility was such that the Great Western was responsible for the locomotive department and the Midland for the goods traffic department. 

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Pre-nationalision, the normal situation would be for a train operated by a company to have a loco, crew, brake van, and guard supplied by that company, with the duties arranged for all of those elements to be returned to where they started.  Even when brake vans were pooled on the GW in 1942, the actual working practice of allocating van's to a duty continued unofficially, and branding and 'R U' markings appeared almost immediately.  

 

Through working was common, of course; Southern to Oxford, GW to Leicester, GW to Redhill etc, but the loco, van, and crew would work through together, so a train with a GW loco would have a GW brake van, and one with an LMS loco an LMS brake van, and so on, even if it was working on a 'foreign' railway.

 

The same applied to parcels and passenger stock, in the sense that any working off their own companies' metals would be in 'circuits', and return to their home railway as the next working.  After nationalisation, such parcels stock as was not in fixed working rakes was pooled nationally, and the entire network was flooded with Southern Railway PMVs within a few minutes; only a slight exaggeration!  Brake vans took a little longer to disseminate themselves, and the WR was particularly keen to retrieve any toads that had gone a'wanderin' as it was unofficially continuing the non-pool arrangements for it's own purposes.  The Southern were extremely assiduous in chasing down any of their lovely Queen Marys that had gone astray, but 'Midland' and the new standard vans, a version of the LNER 20 tonner became endemic everywhere over about 20 years.

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........... the new standard vans, a version of the LNER 20 tonner became endemic everywhere over about 20 years.

Then, of course, if the OP wants something 'a bit different' he could opt for the standard brake van that never became standard : each of the 'grouping' companies received an RCH-inspired van during the war - basically an LMS van with minimal verandas, leaving platforms with sand boxes at the ends .................. or, if his modelling period had been a bit later, he could run a Southern 'pillbox' with 'M' prefixed number !

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I'm intrigued, please tell us more?

 

Paul

 

I'm mainly modelling the Big Four era in N. The layout basically a GWR setting but the SR has running rights -- as does the LMS occasionally!  In other words, depending on my mood, I run an SR/GWR combination or an LMS/GWR mixture. I don't have too many brake vans, hence my question re mixing up brake vans of one livery with locos of another. Hope that makes sense ... Ultimately, I probably just need to buy more suitable brake vans!  Rob

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I'm mainly modelling the Big Four era in N. The layout basically a GWR setting but the SR has running rights -- as does the LMS occasionally! In other words, depending on my mood, I run an SR/GWR combination or an LMS/GWR mixture. I don't have too many brake vans, hence my question re mixing up brake vans of one livery with locos of another. Hope that makes sense ... Ultimately, I probably just need to buy more suitable brake vans! Rob

Utilise rule one... it's your trainset. Just my opinion but sometimes life is too short to get bogged down in slavishly following the prototype, so just do what you want to is my view ;)

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Pre-nationalision, the normal situation would be for a train operated by a company to have a loco, crew, brake van, and guard supplied by that company, with the duties arranged for all of those elements to be returned to where they started.  Even when brake vans were pooled on the GW in 1942, the actual working practice of allocating van's to a duty continued unofficially, and branding and 'R U' markings appeared almost immediately.  

 

Through working was common, of course; Southern to Oxford, GW to Leicester, GW to Redhill etc, but the loco, van, and crew would work through together, so a train with a GW loco would have a GW brake van, and one with an LMS loco an LMS brake van, and so on, even if it was working on a 'foreign' railway.

 

The same applied to parcels and passenger stock, in the sense that any working off their own companies' metals would be in 'circuits', and return to their home railway as the next working.  After nationalisation, such parcels stock as was not in fixed working rakes was pooled nationally, and the entire network was flooded with Southern Railway PMVs within a few minutes; only a slight exaggeration!  Brake vans took a little longer to disseminate themselves, and the WR was particularly keen to retrieve any toads that had gone a'wanderin' as it was unofficially continuing the non-pool arrangements for it's own purposes.  The Southern were extremely assiduous in chasing down any of their lovely Queen Marys that had gone astray, but 'Midland' and the new standard vans, a version of the LNER 20 tonner became endemic everywhere over about 20 years.

 

At some time after nationalisation, GBVs without duckets/guards' lookouts were branded as "not in commoun use" and any which strayed off region were supposed to be returned ASAP.

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I'm intrigued, please tell us more?

 

Paul

More ? .... how much do you want ? ....................... on our various preserved railways you may have noticed a number of 'Southern' pillbox brakes with not exactly inconspicuous twin vacuum brake cylinders on one end platform - not one of these ever ran in Southern Railway livery as they were an S.R. build for the Army from whence our preservationists have acquired them. Two of these Army brakes did, though escape to Civvy Street and were allocated M36xxxx numbers along with a variety of other 'oddball' wagons which entered B.R. service shortly after nationalisation : one of these two vans survives on the Bluebell Railway - but in a spurious S.R. livery rather than its much more interesting genuine B.R. identity ! : http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/wagon/49018.html

 

Well, though the Bluebell haven't restored M360328 to its correct identity, the Swanage Railway have recently turned out one of the other Army vans as M360329 ! : spurious but very smart !

Edited by Wickham Green
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 The Southern were extremely assiduous in chasing down any of their lovely Queen Marys that had gone astray, but 'Midland' and the new standard vans, a version of the LNER 20 tonner became endemic everywhere over about 20 years.

 

The reason for that was they were the only "modern" brake vans that could be used on the lines with restricted loading gauge on the South Eastern Section.

 

Notice the narrow bodies.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/brakevans04.html

 

 

 

Jason

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What would the situation be for a working that is ran on a different company's line for route knowledge?

 

I am thinking the Southern workings along the South Devon, I know that for the passenger workings they used GWR coaching stock, but for the freight service would a Southern guard also be on the working (and could a Southern break van be justified)? 

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The reason for that was they were the only "modern" brake vans that could be used on the lines with restricted loading gauge on the South Eastern Section.

 

Notice the narrow bodies.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/brakevans04.html

 

 

 

Jason

The 'Queen Mary's were exactly the same width as the four-wheeled 'pillboxes' ............ but they rode a darned sight better !

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What would the situation be for a working that is ran on a different company's line for route knowledge?

 

I am thinking the Southern workings along the South Devon, I know that for the passenger workings they used GWR coaching stock, but for the freight service would a Southern guard also be on the working (and could a Southern break van be justified)? 

Don't forget that "route knowledge" workings weren't and still aren't just for loco crew. The guard also needs to know the road, in fact in the days of loose coupled freights it could be literally disastrous if the guard didn't know exactly where he was on the railway so could use the van brakes to avoid breakaways or runaways.

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Don't forget that "route knowledge" workings weren't and still aren't just for loco crew. The guard also needs to know the road, in fact in the days of loose coupled freights it could be literally disastrous if the guard didn't know exactly where he was on the railway so could use the van brakes to avoid breakaways or runaways.

That was the logic I was working from, the question is more would it be a SR guard in a SR van or a in a GW van, I suspect the latter though modellers license may well make it the former

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A loco crew or guard regularly working over another railway's metals, with jobs in their link taking them in that direction, would have to have had and signed for the appropriate route knowledge, and knowledge of the different working practices, equipment, signalling, and rules and regulations of the 'foreign' railway.  The example of the South Devon diversions over the GW for Southern trains, and the corresponding diversion over the Southern via Okehampton for GW,  trains, which were catered for with regular workings over the alternative route for traincrews from each company to maintain route knowledge, largely concerned passenger workings with few freight trains, but when actual diversion took place due to per way possessions, breaches of the sea wall at Dawlish, derailments or other blockages, diverted freight trains ran with their own crews, guards, locos, and brake vans.

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