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Pre group wagon loads for single plank wagons.


Norton961
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I have a number of LNWR single plank wagons and a single plank P.O. wagon for which I would like to incorporate some loads, but can’t find any photos showing any loads.

I presume the P.O. wagon would have had products relating to its business but I don’t know what that was.

post-20690-0-07215100-1535632751_thumb.jpeg

 

I would presume that the LNWR single plankers would have had a variety of loads, but I don’t have any photos.

 

David

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According to Grace's guide, Morris and Griffin of Newport made agricultural fertilizers and glue, the specialties being phosphate fertilizers, bone glue and powdered blue. I don't know if this helps. The product would presumably have been in sacks or perhaps boxes or tins, none of which seems to me appropriate loads for this sort of wagon - others may, of course, know better.

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Usually low wagons carried heavy loads which weren't bulky (and didn't need a high sided wagon). Things like machinery, stone and castings. Obviously within the loading weight of the wagon.

 

It seems the Morris and Griffin wagon is probably real.

 

 

Morris & Griffin [Newport, Monmouthshire] [Flatbed wagon]

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf

 

Here's the Graces Guide page.

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Morris_and_Griffin

 

Found a bit of detail here at the bottom of the page. Seems it carried slurry tanks.

 

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/grcwPOcw.htm

 

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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Loads would have been similar to those in later periods; items to big to fit through the door of higher sided wagons.  One plankers have drop sides, and are used for large items of machinery.  Motor cars, horse drawn vehicles in those days, farm machinery, industrial machinery, indeterminate lumps of stuff under tarpaulins, that sort of thing.  I have no idea what a manufacturer of fertiliser or glue, presumably side products of an abattoir, would need one for, but I imagine it would be to do with inward traffic.  Maybe big carboys of some sort of chemical?

 

BR standard one plankers were used in the 70s to carry 'Invacars', those awful 3 wheeled fibreglass mobility that the NHS used to use to try to kill off disabled people with and which, to the city's shame, were made in Cardiff.  They were taken to the NCL depot at Davis St on flatbeds pulled by the last generation of Scammell Mechanical Horses and loaded in the depot's end loading dock, roped down.  I mention this to give an idea of the size, shape, and type of a typical load.  I have one which occasionally delivers the same Oxford grey Fordson tractor to Cwmdimath for a local farmer.

Edited by The Johnster
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Pile 'em high and sheet 'em over. How pre-group are you? Most of my pre-group wagon modelling has been Midland, LNW and GW. For the latter two, there's a progression in the standard merchandise wagon from one-plank wagons in the early days, moving on to 2-plank wagons in the 1870s then 4-plank from the late 1880s. On both lines, there were plenty of the earlier wagons still in use in the early 20th century. I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't have a bulky load - up to the limit of the loading gauge - on a 1-plank wagon so long as it didn't exceed the weight capacity of the wagon and was securely roped and sheeted. Most types of merchandise would be sheeted; sheets are a wonderful cop-out from worrying about what the actual load might be. 

 

Photos are very hard to come by - the best one can do is peer at photos of goods trains in the wild. Photos of goods wagons at rest in goods yards are unrepresentative because most are being loaded or unloaded or are awaiting their loads - so are unsheeted.

Edited by Compound2632
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One plankers have drop sides,

 

Maybe true of BR standards. The 19th-century 1-plank wagon almost universally had fixed sides, typically 11" deep - in particular the LNW D1 to which the OP refers; the same goes for 2-plank wagons such as the LNW D2. Centre doors came in with the 4-plank wagon. On the other hand, many 3-plank designs do seem to have had drop-sides - the Midland was especially partial to these; they seem to have been the standard merchandise wagon until the introduction of the 6-plank wagon to D299 in the early 1880s.

Edited by Compound2632
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Chaps,

thanks for the reply’s. The suggestion of using “sheets” to cover some indistinguishable load is an excellent one.

I have the first 2 volumes of LNWR wagons and photos of single plankers with loads are almost non existent.

As an aside looking forward to Vol 3 of LNWR wagons which has now been published.

 

I still need to decide what load to put on the Morris and Griffin wagon though.

 

David

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Vol 1 of LNWR wagons does show a 1 plank loaded with a furniture pantechnicon container and says it is a typical load.  There is also a picture of a 1 plank open (suspect a 6 or 7 ton) in Talbot's LNWR Miscellany (vol 1) with what appears to be a sand/gravel load (could be slag or ballast).

I don't think your Morris & Griffin wagon would have carried slurry - the picture of one in Montague's PO wagons from the Gloucester RWCCo is different - no end plank and a frame carrying rectangular tanks fixed to the wagon.  No help with what your wagon would actually have carried I'm afraid.

Edited by eastglosmog
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If you're making glue, it's dead animals, such as butchers waste. Thrown into iron skips, it would end up at a boiling works. It wouldn't be sheeted over; The smell would be enough!. It must have been a terrible sight. Flies everywhere, and in the winter, animal carcasses frozen together.

 

Remember that by law, the railways were Common Carriers, so any goods had to be carried. At least no-one else would pinch your wagon!

 

Every town of any size had an abattoir. Fresh meat came in on the hoof. Nothing was wasted, so our wagon and its load was fairly commonplace. 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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An illustration from pre-grouping times (that is pre the grouping that formed the LNWR) showing what could be loaded onto a 1 (or possibly zero) plank wagon:

attachicon.gifLondon and Birmingham 1837.jpg

 

Exactly so. The LNW's D1 one-plank wagon was in a direct line of descent from the very earliest L&MR and GJR merchandise wagons. 

 

If you're making glue, it's dead animals, such as butchers waste. Thrown into iron skips, it would end up at a boiling works. It wouldn't be sheeted over; The smell would be enough!. It must have been a terrible sight. Flies everywhere, and in the winter, animal carcasses frozen together.

 

Remember that by law, the railways were Common Carriers, so any goods had to be carried. At least no-one else would pinch your wagon!

 

Every town of any size had an abattoir. Fresh meat came in on the hoof. Nothing was wasted, so our wagon and its load was fairly commonplace. 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

Given the low value as well as unpleasantness in handling, I wonder how much rail transport there would have been? The processes involved are fairly basic - every small town would have had its family firms dealing with the by-products of the meat trade - to say nothing of the by-products of the hostelry trade, essential to the tanneries. 

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You can carry most things in a 1-plank wagon if they're capable of being restrained by ropes, and if you're prepared to spend the labour in the roping down; but you might need a fearsome load of ropes to make it safe. Taller wagons save you time and effort in the roping for things that can be wedged against the sides and ends. Earthenware drain-pipes packed in straw in a taller wagon would be less work than pipes elaborately roped down on a low wagon.

 

Some tall loads can be restrained sufficiently by the wagon sheet. The L&Y carried cotton bales like this IIRC.

 

Cleverness works too. Sacks and bales can be loaded in a interlocking pattern. IIUC, this means that the sheet can restrain the outside sacks laterally and at the ends, and the interlocking stops all the others from shifting. The downward pressure of the sheet stops the sacks from braking the interlocking by jumping upward.

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Exactly so. The LNW's D1 one-plank wagon was in a direct line of descent from the very earliest L&MR and GJR merchandise wagons. 

 

 

Given the low value as well as unpleasantness in handling, I wonder how much rail transport there would have been? The processes involved are fairly basic - every small town would have had its family firms dealing with the by-products of the meat trade - to say nothing of the by-products of the hostelry trade, essential to the tanneries. 

I agree about the various animal by-products firms dealing fairly locally; it's only in relatively recent times that the business has been concentrated on a few sites. I did read somewhere that there were only three sites in England and Wales that now dealt with carcasses that were fit for neither human nor animal consumption. Having worked near such a plant in the summer of 1976, I can vouch for the unpleasantness of the smell.

Curiously, the last fish traffic sent by rail from the Grimsby area was of fish offal, which went to somewhere like Melton Mowbray to be transformed into pet food.

I'm pushed to think how a single-plank wagon would fit into this. The only thing I can think of is baled hides and skins, going to one of the centres of the leather industry, such as Northampton.

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Exactly so. The LNW's D1 one-plank wagon was in a direct line of descent from the very earliest L&MR and GJR merchandise wagons. 

 

 

Given the low value as well as unpleasantness in handling, I wonder how much rail transport there would have been? The processes involved are fairly basic - every small town would have had its family firms dealing with the by-products of the meat trade - to say nothing of the by-products of the hostelry trade, essential to the tanneries. 

 

I'd agree with not shipping animal ick between towns. For Morris and Griffin, were their tanks perhaps carrying guano imported from south America? There was a huge trade in this back in the day and it was all for phosphate fertiliser. 

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I'd agree with not shipping animal ick between towns. For Morris and Griffin, were their tanks perhaps carrying guano imported from south America? There was a huge trade in this back in the day and it was all for phosphate fertiliser. 

A friend's ex-husband did his PhD on this trade.  Fison's plant in Avonmouth was still handling it in the mid/late 1970s. It didn't smell as bad as the animal by-products plant further along..

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For general merchandise, the height of the load is certainly not constrained by the height of the wagon sides. Mind you, I've a suspicion this photo was taken to illustrate how not to do it - possibly this one too. There are similar photos showing wagons neatly loaded with sacks and casks, so I think the Midland must have produced an illustrated guide for staff at some date early in the 20th century. I think the photo of L&Y one-plank wagon loaded with cotton bales that Guy may be thinking of is from the same Derby series, the Midland not having very many one-plank wagons. (The most numerous were described as for agricultural implements and did indeed have drop sides - there were only 300 of them c. 1900, roughly 0.25% of the total wagon stock.)

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One plank wagon loaded with casks. R&SBRy anyone? I got to this by searching on L in the Derby Registers - loaded/loading. Many tantalising descriptions there in addition to the digitised photos. I'd love to see "MR wagon 5516 loaded with hay". Also searching on W for wagon - "method of roping barrels". "Method of loading wine" is intriguing. 

 

I suspect that leather was tanned near source and then shipped by rail to major centres of leather goods manufacture.

Edited by Compound2632
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Vol 1 of LNWR wagons does show a 1 plank loaded with a furniture pantechnicon container and says it is a typical load.  There is also a picture of a 1 plank open (suspect a 6 or 7 ton) in Talbot's LNWR Miscellany (vol 1) with what appears to be a sand/gravel load (could be slag or ballast).

I don't think your Morris & Griffin wagon would have carried slurry - the picture of one in Montague's PO wagons from the Gloucester RWCCo is different - no end plank and a frame carrying rectangular tanks fixed to the wagon.  No help with what your wagon would actually have carried I'm afraid.

 

I think you've got to consider it's a RTR representation of a Morris and Griffin wagon. It's the closest you are going to get without altering/building it yourself.

 

 

 

Jason

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I'd agree with not shipping animal ick between towns...

 

Try this excellent description of significant processing businesses that amalgamated in 1920 -still pre-group! - to specifically concentrate on shipping animal ick to a single location for really efficient stink concentration. Try not to vomit.

 

http://www.themeister.co.uk/hindley/british_glues_chemicals.htm#Mr_Vivian_F_Suter

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Interesting that you seemingly could ride in your own (horseless) carriage once it was loaded on to a wagon (or should that be waggon?).

 

Did Motorail miss a trick?

Indeed you could in the early days - there is a tale (I think in Rolt's Red for Danger) of such a wag(g)on becoming detached in a tunnel and marooning the occupants, which must have scared them somewhat!

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I think you've got to consider it's a RTR representation of a Morris and Griffin wagon. It's the closest you are going to get without altering/building it yourself.

 

 

 

Jason

No, it is a different wagon entirely - Greaves list shows 2 wagons, one a flatbed and the other the slurry tank wagon.  The later is what is shown in Montague's GRCW book, and has a number 3.  I think the glostransport website has misidentified which wagon is depicted by the model.

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Indeed you could in the early days - there is a tale (I think in Rolt's Red for Danger) of such a wag(g)on becoming detached in a tunnel and marooning the occupants, which must have scared them somewhat!

If you use the Swiss car-carrying services through the Alps, you sit in your car throughout; on buying your ticket, you get a small piece of paper advising you not to open the windows too far, or get out of your vehicle. It was a bit of a culture shock for us, having been involved with the Channel Tunnel since 1991.

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Interesting that you seemingly could ride in your own (horseless) carriage once it was loaded on to a wagon (or should that be waggon?).

 

Did Motorail miss a trick?

 

It was the preferred method of travel for the gentry, who preferred not to be contaminated with the hoi polloi in even first class.  You could leave your country estate in your own horse drawn carriage, and sit there until you reached your destination, having been loaded onto a 'Carriage Truck'.  These developed, for the comfort of the gentry, into 'Covered Carriage Trucks', CCT's with end doors.  

 

Rolt also mentions whole special trains of carriage trucks with the gentry and nobility sitting enthroned in magnificence in them making their way to Scotland for the 'Glorious 12th'; must've been quite a sight!

 

I don't think Motorail missed much of a trick with this, and I am old enough to remember the Severn Tunnel Train Ferry, which also had passenger accommodation though IIRC you drove your own car on to the carflats, where railway staff secured them.  You could pay extra for a canvas sheet to protect your Ford Prefect from the Tunnel's slime.

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