New AEC GW railcar in 00

[TerryBewdley]

I have the dc kits sound decoder does anyone have a list of decoder functions as the sound-decoders use 1 thru 10 for sound.

 

Tia

[Adrian Stevenson]

https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=253_68&product_id=1957

[The Stationmaster]

Why has it got a red light at the back i wonder?  Presumably down to lack of research or somebody just thought it would be fun to do it?

[61661]

23 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Why has it got a red light at the back i wonder?  Presumably down to lack of research or somebody just thought it would be fun to do it?

Somewhat disappointed to see that your first assumption is a lack of research on our part or that we've just added this feature 'for a laugh'. The real railcars have a red electric light in the position modelled - a quick look in the cab of No.22 at Didcot will confirm that the driver has the option of using it. However, it appears that GWR/WR drivers didn't trust electricity so usually ran with an oil tail lamp at the back - a practice that continued well into BR days with the first generation DMUs. 

[Oldddudders]

30 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Somewhat disappointed to see that your first assumption is a lack of research on our part or that we've just added this feature 'for a laugh'. The real railcars have a red electric light in the position modelled - a quick look in the cab of No.22 at Didcot will confirm that the driver has the option of using it. However, it appears that GWR/WR drivers didn't trust electricity so usually ran with an oil tail lamp at the back - a practice that continued well into BR days with the first generation DMUs. 

Not my field, but even Southern Railway/Region EMUs with batteries and motor generator sets were not permitted to run without an oil tail-lamp until the early'60s. That red tail-light really, really matters, and reliance upon electricity was simply not accepted. 

[The Stationmaster]

43 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Somewhat disappointed to see that your first assumption is a lack of research on our part or that we've just added this feature 'for a laugh'. The real railcars have a red electric light in the position modelled - a quick look in the cab of No.22 at Didcot will confirm that the driver has the option of using it. However, it appears that GWR/WR drivers didn't trust electricity so usually ran with an oil tail lamp at the back - a practice that continued well into BR days with the first generation DMUs. 

The problem is Ben that they were required to carry a tail lamp at the rear - the red light was not permitted to be used in traffic hence my comment about lack of research.  Nothing to do with 'distrustful  Drivers' but no doubt a lot to do with early experience with the original streamline cars.  Hence from March 1937 until the day they finally disappeared from traffic all the GWR/exGWR diesel railcars of both the streamline and later type body HAD to carry an ordinary oil tail lamp, lit at those times when such lamps were required to be lit, and it was the Guard's job to see that it was there and to light it at the times it had to be lit.  

 

Strangely, and at a young age, having stood one night at the junction station for our branch waiting for someone to cycle 5 miles with the forgotten tail lamp for the railcar (the only train on the branch) it was something I learnt very early on (and  long before I joined the railway).

 

23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Not my field, but even Southern Railway/Region EMUs with batteries and motor generator sets were not permitted to run without an oil tail-lamp until the early'60s. That red tail-light really, really matters, and reliance upon electricity was simply not accepted. 

There were I think two problems - and oddly one of them was something which was still in mind with Class 373 Eurostars in the 1990s.   Firstly the little red light on the back of a railcar would not be easy to see in daylight but more importantly - and I think something the SR also had in mind - was the lack of power/battery power to keep the tail light illuminated should train be stopped for a long time or (on the SR ) if a train lost the 3rd rail supply.   That was certainly an early problem with Class 373s where it was found that with the original electrical arrangements and without load shedding the batteries wouldn't be able to keep the tail lights illuminated for more than about 45 minutes when line voltage was lost

 

[Pteremy]

So the red light is correctly modelled, because it was fitted, but should not be used. Fortunately there are switches to turn them off. Which leaves us with a more generic issue - fitting (working) tail lamps to models. And in this case an interesting modelling challenge - could the red light wiring be reconfigured to feed a tail lamp on one of the lamp irons provided? 

[Bulwell Hall]

If I remember correctly the same applied to London Transport - until the 1960s oil tail lamps had to be displayed, certainly on the surface lines and even on the tube I believe.

 

Gerry

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Pteremy said:

So the red light is correctly modelled, because it was fitted, but should not be used. Fortunately there are switches to turn them off. Which leaves us with a more generic issue - fitting (working) tail lamps to models. And in this case an interesting modelling challenge - could the red light wiring be reconfigured to feed a tail lamp on one of the lamp irons provided? 

If you happen to just run in 'daylight' and there are no tunnels on your layout then there's no need for the tail lamp to be lit and the Heljan cars do of course have the necessary lamp iron(s).  Incidentally the headlights - showing either the Class A or Class B code as appropriate - were only required to be turned on after sunset or when passing through a tunnel (and during fog or falling snow - either of which is probably unlikely on the vast majority of model railways).

[Dunsignalling]

23 hours ago, Pteremy said:

So the red light is correctly modelled, because it was fitted, but should not be used. Fortunately there are switches to turn them off. Which leaves us with a more generic issue - fitting (working) tail lamps to models. And in this case an interesting modelling challenge - could the red light wiring be reconfigured to feed a tail lamp on one of the lamp irons provided? 

Should be easy enough if the railcar only needs to travel one way, but how does one deal with the return trip on a terminus layout, other than by turning the car?

 

Many years ago, I saw a model locomotive on which the lamp irons were a live metal-plastic-metal laminate (similar to double-sided PCB) via which removeable lamps were energised, enabling fully prototypical operation of any class of train. Very impressive in both concept and execution!

 

Trouble is, the model in question was to Gauge 1 (if not larger) and I think it might be rather tricky to achieve in 4mm scale....

 

John

Edited August 21, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Michael Hodgson]

I think the problem with electric tail lamps is that just weren't sufficiently visible, rather than their unreliability.  A tungsten filament can certainly burn out or break, particularly because of the vibration of a moving vehicle.  Had they wanted to use them, the railways could have protected against that risk as they did with colour light signals - dual filament bulbs are available, so that if the main one fails, the standby comes into operation.  Cold-proving circuits can be devised to generate an alarm in the event that main or standby filament is damaged even thought the light is switched off.  On a single vehicle train or a DMU, it's easy enough to alert the driver that an electric red light isn't working - though it might have been more of a problem for trains whose composition varies such as conventional loco-hauled trains.

 

By day, what the signalman sees to confirm completeness of the train is actually the white body of the lamp.  That is more conspicuous than the early electric lights which weren't really that visible in daylight even when switched on.  Colour light signal lamps were fitted with fresnel lenses to focus the light in a narrow beam which is carefully aimed at approaching train drivers line of sight - whereas a tail lamp is seen at an oblique angle which varies as the train passes, so you can't use such clever optics to focus it on the signalman.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think the problem with electric tail lamps is that just weren't sufficiently visible, rather than their unreliability.  A tungsten filament can certainly burn out or break, particularly because of the vibration of a moving vehicle.  Had they wanted to use them, the railways could have protected against that risk as they did with colour light signals - dual filament bulbs are available, so that if the main one fails, the standby comes into operation.  Cold-proving circuits can be devised to generate an alarm in the event that main or standby filament is damaged even thought the light is switched off.  On a single vehicle train or a DMU, it's easy enough to alert the driver that an electric red light isn't working - though it might have been more of a problem for trains whose composition varies such as conventional loco-hauled trains.

 

By day, what the signalman sees to confirm completeness of the train is actually the white body of the lamp.  That is more conspicuous than the early electric lights which weren't really that visible in daylight even when switched on.  Colour light signal lamps were fitted with fresnel lenses to focus the light in a narrow beam which is carefully aimed at approaching train drivers line of sight - whereas a tail lamp is seen at an oblique angle which varies as the train passes, so you can't use such clever optics to focus it on the signalman.

Visibility maybe a problem but not I think for Signalmen (see second paragraph) and I suspect that battery life battery life/reliability was probably an issue as I noted above.  Interestingly in 1936 the GWR imposed additional conditions if a train was admitted to a Permissive section behind a railcar and those conditions were not altered in March 1937 when the requirement was introduced for railcars to carry a tail lamp (which were of course red at that time and already being criticised for not being particularly visible especially if they were dirty).  

 

It is of course a rather moot point as far as Signalmen were concerned because they knew full well that a railcar (until No.18 appeared in April 1937) was 'complete' because it couldn't be coupled to anything else (in normal traffic working) which suggests that the requirement to use a tail lamp had a wider implication than the ability of a Signalman to see that the railcar was complete.  These various factors all tend to indicate that whatever caused the change had little to do with Signalmen observing the electric tail light (which in any case was only illuminated after dark or when passing through a tunnel etc).  Incidentally there is no mention in the relevant minute books of Signalmen having any problem assuring themselves that a railcar was 'complete' in the manner required by the Block Regulations but the Permissive section situation was discussed and that led to the additional Instruction published in 1936.

[Pteremy]

So, so far as tunnels are concerned, if i have understood correctly, a tail lamp would have been lit at, presumably, the station before the tunnel, and then extinguished at the next station on the other side? Or might it have been lit at the start of the journey even though only needed on a section of the line (i.e. the tunnel)? 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

So, so far as tunnels are concerned, if i have understood correctly, a tail lamp would have been lit at, presumably, the station before the tunnel, and then extinguished at the next station on the other side? Or might it have been lit at the start of the journey even though only needed on a section of the line (i.e. the tunnel)? 

That the tail lamp would have to be lit when passing through the tunnel is the important bit - it would probably be put on already lit at the start of the journey and remain lit until turnround or the end of the diagram if working to & fro through a tunnel.  The railcar Instructions required the Driver to turn on the headlights before entering a tunnel and that also applied to the electric tail light while they were still in use (and turn them off after leaving the tunnel).

 

Thus if you had a railcar working on a route without any tunnels (and the weather was clear) the headlights would only be turned on, and the tail lamp lit, during the hours of darkness.  

And a nice  simple cut-off date for modellers - prior to March 1937 the railcars did not carry a tail lamp and the built-in red light would only be turned on as explained above.  From March 1937 the railcars had to have a standard tail lamp but it was only required to be lit as explained above. 

[Neal Ball]

20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That the tail lamp would have to be lit when passing through the tunnel is the important bit - it would probably be put on already lit at the start of the journey and remain lit until turnround or the end of the diagram if working to & fro through a tunnel.  The railcar Instructions required the Driver to turn on the headlights before entering a tunnel and that also applied to the electric tail light while they were still in use (and turn them off after leaving the tunnel).

 

Thus if you had a railcar working on a route without any tunnels (and the weather was clear) the headlights would only be turned on, and the tail lamp lit, during the hours of darkness.  

And a nice  simple cut-off date for modellers - prior to March 1937 the railcars did not carry a tail lamp and the built-in red light would only be turned on as explained above.  From March 1937 the railcars had to have a standard tail lamp but it was only required to be lit as explained above. 

You have an encyclopaedic knowledge Mike aka @The Stationmaster, did you ever finish that book? I seem to recall it was about signalling, but your knowledge clearly extends to the GWR daily workings as well.

 

Perhaps part 1 should be signalling and part 2 the daily operation.

[Dunsignalling]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That the tail lamp would have to be lit when passing through the tunnel is the important bit - it would probably be put on already lit at the start of the journey and remain lit until turnround or the end of the diagram if working to & fro through a tunnel.  The railcar Instructions required the Driver to turn on the headlights before entering a tunnel and that also applied to the electric tail light while they were still in use (and turn them off after leaving the tunnel).

 

Thus if you had a railcar working on a route without any tunnels (and the weather was clear) the headlights would only be turned on, and the tail lamp lit, during the hours of darkness.  

And a nice  simple cut-off date for modellers - prior to March 1937 the railcars did not carry a tail lamp and the built-in red light would only be turned on as explained above.  From March 1937 the railcars had to have a standard tail lamp but it was only required to be lit as explained above. 

Which begs the question as to whether/how long the built-in tail lamps would have remained functional thereafter....

 

Surely, there would have been no need to maintain in working order equipment for which there was no longer any operational requirement. 

 

Or was the imposition of a normal tail lamp additional to the pre-existing arrangement?

 

John

Edited August 24, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[jonnyuk]

Running Issues - i've took delivery of the LokPilot decoder and for the most part very happy, i do find it frustrating through that when you change direction you have to set about 3 different light options but thats a minor grumble.

 

My main issue is the jerking running and very slow top speed, the loco runs with a very slight jerk, almost like its its got some inertia (its not the decoder because it did with my temporary one, i was hoping it was the decoder), the top speed is really poor, i can't believe it would run that slowly. anybody else had issues?

 

[amdaley]

1 hour ago, jonnyuk said:

Running Issues - i've took delivery of the LokPilot decoder and for the most part very happy, i do find it frustrating through that when you change direction you have to set about 3 different light options but thats a minor grumble.

 

My main issue is the jerking running and very slow top speed, the loco runs with a very slight jerk, almost like its its got some inertia (its not the decoder because it did with my temporary one, i was hoping it was the decoder), the top speed is really poor, i can't believe it would run that slowly. anybody else had issues?

 

Have you tried the railcar on DC & if you did, did you have the same jerky running? 

Tony. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by amdaley

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which begs the question as to whether/how long the built-in tail lamps would have remained functional thereafter....

 

Surely, there would have been no need to maintain in working order equipment for which there was no longer any operational requirement. 

 

Or was the imposition of a normal tail lamp additional to the pre-existing arrangement?

 

John

That's a good question John.  By the time of the 1940 build there was no need for the red light at all but whether the works carried on in their own way using new wiring drawings based on the earlier ones is another question.

 

3 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

You have an encyclopaedic knowledge Mike aka @The Stationmaster, did you ever finish that book? I seem to recall it was about signalling, but your knowledge clearly extends to the GWR daily workings as well.

 

Perhaps part 1 should be signalling and part 2 the daily operation.

The 'knowledge ' is down to several things - first my day-to-day working life over a large part of three decades which not only involved learning but as importantly taught me how the various source documents inter-acted with each other and the importance of amendments and alterations to that material plus knowing how to interpret stuff; secondly a life long interest in the subject from long before my working years and which has continued after them; and thirdly gradually building a library of original source material to which I am adding whenever I get the chance (and, when necessary, have the money to do so); and lastly trying not to rely on memory but checking stuff against original documents before I post anything, particularly dates.

[jonnyuk]

On 24/08/2021 at 10:35, amdaley said:

Have you tried the railcar on DC & if you did, did you have the same jerky running? 

Tony. 

well i stripped the loco down last night, could not see any reason for the lurching movement, put it back together and seems to run better so go figure (broken a pickup wire from the boggie to the pcb in the process so had to fashion a new wire).

change of topic  slightly. now having ran it along side the Dapol railcar i have to say the Heljan is a better model

1: more refined in the detail such as wipers, handles, mouldings

2: whether its accurate or not but i prefer the colours on the Heljan model, they look sharper, less drab
3: better lighting (although its a fav with having to switch lights on/off when you change direction)
4: better interior and cab, although for the money the cab should be painted and picked out
5: against is the decoder choice, stick another £25 on the buying price to get the right decoder rather than using a 21 pin out of the bit draw.

 

overall it looks a better model, finish, colour, detail, lighting than the Dapol one (i know they are different loco's)

Now would i pay £160 for it, NO. I paid £110 from hattons for a pre-owned and for me that sits just right. I'm a happy bunny with my purchase.

[jonnyuk]

mystery deepens, i have just by chance determined that if i press 0 on my prodigy express to turn on the directional lights the loco drops in speed to a fast crawl and lurches a little, reset the system and it runs fine again. Its only the directional lighting that causes this, all other lighting functions are fine. i wonder if this is some feature of the decoder where by you press a button it and drops into a predefined running profile?

[jonnyuk]

i've not been able to suss the above, anybody else has similar issues?

[Neal Ball]

16 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

i've not been able to suss the above, anybody else has similar issues?

Ive not had that issue no, are you using an ESU?
I always struggle to get anything above F9 on my Prodigy, it just doesn’t like the shift key. Plus of course it only goes to F19 - so I’m struggling to get any lights to work.

 

I remain not impressed that Heljan have specified using only an ESU decoder. 

[Neal Ball]

duplicated post

Edited September 9, 2021 by Neal Ball

[jonnyuk]

7 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Ive not had that issue no, are you using an ESU?
I always struggle to get anything above F9 on my Prodigy, it just doesn’t like the shift key. Plus of course it only goes to F19 - so I’m struggling to get any lights to work.

 

I remain not impressed that Heljan have specified using only an ESU decoder. 

yep i'm using the recommended decoder, everything works but when i put directional lighting on the speed drops to a crawl which is why i suspect its a decoder configuration. 

I agree with your comment about Heljan forcing you to use 1 decoder, unless your a whiz with re-programming, how many of us can do that.

i've worked in IT for 25 years and very IT literate (also a developer), could i get to grips with re-programming, not a chance!