BR large logo blue on a class 87?

[Talltim]

The Hornby 58 also had details missing due to its early release, most obviously the cover plates over the cabling/piping set in the web of the chassis ‘girders’

[adb968008]

On 01/10/2019 at 23:04, andyman7 said:

 

 

Large logo livery was first trialled on 56036 when built in 1978. From 56084 onwards, all new class 56s began to be painted in that livery,

Its history starts a little further back, 1967 actually, on a few 73’s..

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by adb968008

[BernardTPM]

There were a number of examples of extra large yellow ends around that time, including the example of the Trans-Pennine that Trix based their blue/grey version on.

Edited October 3, 2019 by BernardTPM

[andyman7]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its history starts a little further back, 1967 actually, on a few 73’s..

 

That's the early blue wraparound yellow used on some multiple units and locos when the yellow panel was being expanded. The logos and numbers most definitely aren't large though.........

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, andyman7 said:

That's the early blue wraparound yellow used on some multiple units and locos when the yellow panel was being expanded. The logos and numbers most definitely aren't large though.........

 

The point being evolution...

The “livery” to be precise, grey roof, yellow cabs didn’t start with a 56.

just the logo and numbers.

 

The design is a copy. The implication it was “first trialled” on a 56 is therefore incorrect. The 56 was a subsequent iteration of a previous trial design, just like Stratford grey roof 47’s, the white stripe 31/4’s.

 

The implication your making is like saying the xp64 set was not the first blue/grey set, because it too differed from production. Or also it could be construed as saying Rocket was the first trialled steam locomotive, because it’s called Rocket and everyone knows it.

 

56036 was the final test livery, before approval, and subsequently gave a name to the production colour scheme. It can claim to be the first successful version, but not the first trialled version. Scientifically that’s a huge difference.

 

in model terms, a final painted EP is not a production model, just because it’s the approved version for production, it’s a final test, that just happens to be the first approved.. The first of however many of those unapproved EPs before it is the “first trialled” version.

 

or finally to put it another way...

when was the last time you bought version 1.0.0 of some software that was considered production release ?

Edited October 3, 2019 by adb968008

[royaloak]

The livery (all of it) is called large logo because it has, well, a large logo and numbers, what the 73s wore was wrap around yellow, it cant be large logo because they didnt carry large logos, just because certain elements were carried over doesnt make them the same livery.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, royaloak said:

The livery (all of it) is called large logo because it has, well, a large logo and numbers, what the 73s wore was wrap around yellow, it cant be large logo because they didnt carry large logos, just because certain elements were carried over doesnt make them the same livery.

Could you point me to where BR called it large logo blue, as in 1978, I understand BR called it a variant of BR blue, and this I understand is what magazines also referred to it.

 

A named anointed by trainspotters, is not an official name that retrospectively gets applied in history.

 

it is a variant, one that as a final evolution of a test that started a decade earlier, was adopted. The livery wasnt just applied by rogue depot painters overnight, there will be a long paper trail of designs, memos, letters, meeting minutes in an era that decisions weren't taken in a second over email but sent via mail (internal and external), its easy to look back and apply modern thought processes and methods to the past, especially as enthusiasts with only limited insights.

 

The loco it was applied to was new, the committee deciding it would have been older and have prior experience and knowledge. This wasnt a B&Q bodge, or someone vinyl printing their homework. It was a centralised decision, that no doubt took much longer to evolve due to strict policies on BR livery rules at that time. They didn't set out to create “large logo blue”, they set out to improve existing Blue, through different experiments, for example seeing how full yellow cabs weather over time, and if light grey roofs would reflect heat and assist cooling as with aircraft.

 

it was an evolution, not a new invention, in a time where decisions took much longer. It is a variant of an existing test, that was deemed successful. Just because the 73 didnt have a large logo doesn't mean its completely unrelated. If the 73 had successfully worn red cabs, chances are 56036 would also have red cabs.

 

using your logic, revised Network South East isnt a revision at all, its a completely new livery. Calling engineers livery “Dutch” doesn't mean its from Holland, nor did its designers set out to copy NS. They are end results, not starting results, and they are related to previous efforts.

 

BR isnt known for its livery skills, thats why most of them were outsourced. 56036 is a revision of blue, the result of iterations of tests. Train-spotting names are just that, and can distort accuracy and under values the scientific work that lead to trainspotters enjoyment.

Edited October 4, 2019 by adb968008

[Jim76]

Wasn’t it official referred to as ‘Revised Blue’?

[andyman7]

Blimey, can we not get quite so heated on this? 

 

When I was a train-mad kid, 56036 turned up in a 'new' livery that eventually got rolled out on to other classes. We called it large logo and it was new to us. That was all I was saying. 

 

I don't have an issue with digging out the facts but would prefer that anyone wanting to go down that route can provide sources and data. In particular, although the BR design manual and BR's approach to liveries in the 1970s was strict, there is enough evidence of local and depot deviations to suggest that things weren't quite as controlled as HQ wanted. 

 

The early wrap around yellow fronts applied to class 73s and some DMU/EMU classes were not perpetuated beyond around 1970, so I'd be very happy to see the evidence that the 1978 version was an evolution - between 1970 and 1978 there was no deviation from the standard yellow front application. adb968008 is right to say that there will have been notes and memos, but the key is actually to be able to produce or reference them - otherwise it is just more conjecture.

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Blimey, can we not get quite so heated on this? 

 

When I was a train-mad kid, 56036 turned up in a 'new' livery that eventually got rolled out on to other classes. We called it large logo and it was new to us. That was all I was saying. 

 

I don't have an issue with digging out the facts but would prefer that anyone wanting to go down that route can provide sources and data. In particular, although the BR design manual and BR's approach to liveries in the 1970s was strict, there is enough evidence of local and depot deviations to suggest that things weren't quite as controlled as HQ wanted. 

 

The early wrap around yellow fronts applied to class 73s and some DMU/EMU classes were not perpetuated beyond around 1970, so I'd be very happy to see the evidence that the 1978 version was an evolution - between 1970 and 1978 there was no deviation from the standard yellow front application. adb968008 is right to say that there will have been notes and memos, but the key is actually to be able to produce or reference them - otherwise it is just more conjecture.

 

The benefits of a full wrap around yellow cab have existed continuously since 1967. It was not forgotten in 1970.. High Speed Test locomotives at RTC continuously wore it, even though the blue / grey was reversed, same too the Western Pullman.. it wasnt forgotten, 43000 never wore anything but.

 

my only passion in this, is knowing someone who worked on livery design at Derby, and was instrumental on RES/Parcels livery, though he didn't leave me the evidence you ask (though I do possess some technical drawings from the mid-1980’s) relating to liveries then, he did give me the stories. Sadly he passed away over 2 decades ago.

 

But I do know livery was first a science, then second an aesthetic, Another example of experimentation was white DMUs in the early 1970’s including thickness of the stripes, use of brown below frames instead of black, Another such example is the use of a white overhead safety stripe (IIRC yellow was considered) later an orange one etc..

BR paired much back in the 70’s but research continued...the marketing of the results came afterwards...Whilst  ive no idea what possessed a white DMU, but it serves to visibly demonstrate to you, that the design team was continually active throughout the 70’s. 

I do know some served a whole career dedicated to railway paint science, and whilst it appears creative (and today it is) it appeared much more bureaucratic and functional... The grey, the yellow, the white cantrail, the large numbers weren't just aesthetic, they were functional. Though i’m guessing the logo was, possibly inspired by the large union jack 47’s the year before and a marketing thing.

The sum of the whole was “Large logo blue”, the parts were embedded in past science, not invented an after hours joke in the paint shop in 1978.

Edited October 5, 2019 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

There was also two (or possibly three) Eastfield Class 37's that received similar more yellow treatment but no large logos.  I know 37111 and 37112 were the two most known ones but supposedly one other was done as well.

[brushman47544]

On 03/10/2019 at 09:29, BernardTPM said:

There were a number of examples of extra large yellow ends around that time,.

Nobody seems to have mentioned 33012 https://railphotoprints.uk/p735303296/h3b3fbbb9#h3b3fbbb9

 

25 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

There was also two (or possibly three) Eastfield Class 37's that received similar more yellow treatment but no large logos.  I know 37111 and 37112 were the two most known ones but supposedly one other was done as well.

At least 37027 went into the more yellow with standard size logo before being given the full large logo version.

[BernardTPM]

I certainly didn't mention it in relation to very early examples of enlarged yellow ends, but then again 33012 wasn't painted that way in the 1960s (not even numbered that way at that time, of course).

[MidlandRed]

On 3 October 2019 at 08:25, adb968008 said:

Its history starts a little further back, 1967 actually, on a few 73’s..

 

 

Early in 1967 a number of DMUs and EMUs which were being repainted in rail blue had the yellow ends continued along the sides to include the cab doors. Most classes appeared to have at least one representative (in Birmingham we had at least a class 304, class 122 M55005, a class 103). Southern EMUs were also included. I'm not aware of any locos being treated at that time other than those class 73s (which were as boxy as DMU/EMUs). 

 

This livery was reported in the railway magazines as integrating the yellow front into the overall livery. 

 

Only a handful of units were dealt with in this way from a range of classes until the original fye arrangement was adopted again. I suspect the SR may have misinterpreted the instruction as including locos, or tried it out to reduce the boxy look of the EDs.Some of the DMUs affected may also have included the brown coloured underframes. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by MidlandRed

[John M Upton]

Just now, royaloak said:

I think 37027 was another one.

 

Indeed it was although it seems to have been extremely short lived as I have only ever seen one picture of it out in the wild outside of its debut in the livery at the works open day.

[royaloak]

Just now, John M Upton said:

 

Indeed it was although it seems to have been extremely short lived as I have only ever seen one picture of it out in the wild outside of its debut in the livery at the works open day.

Blimey, the post you quoted was only up 2 minutes as I deleted it because somebody else had already posted about it, I have a slide of 37027 at Glasgow Queen Street in 1981 or 1982 with its wrap around yellow ends.

[ElectroSoldier]

On 03/10/2019 at 08:25, adb968008 said:

Its history starts a little further back, 1967 actually, on a few 73’s..

 

 

You see the thing about the large logo livery is... well... I kinda has to have a lrage logo.

[royaloak]

4 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

 

You see the thing about the large logo livery is... well... I kinda has to have a lrage logo.

But apparently we are wrong to call it large logo.

 

TBH I would just leave it there.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, royaloak said:

But apparently we are wrong to call it large logo.

 

TBH I would just leave it there.

Best idea.

I give up.

[ElectroSoldier]

But the Class 73 doesnt have a large logo on it...

 

So how can it be a large logo livery?