Newman Miniatures: N and 00 Scale 3D-Printed Scratch Aids

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, Rudititanic said:

Turbosnail: thanks, but mine's virtually done now so no worries. 

 

Edwardian: As already stated, WSF has coarser tolerances so some finer detail is not feasible, and as many use filler primer to smooth these out that would reduce the relief as a consequence.  I should note that the boiler planking in particular was significantly reduced from the enlarged N dimensions as it is.  The only alternative would be to produce it in FED/FUD, which effectively quadruples the price and puts it beyond what most appear prepared to generally pay.  Should these tolerances change then things will be different, but as it stands I would rather have it basic but included (which of course modellers can alter as they see fit, such as planking over the top - much finer & more bespoke than 3D) rather than finescale that after sanding/priming could disappear outright from the model.   

 

I understand your reasoning, but, if you won't bend to the need for closer to scale detail, this is not, alas, the model for me!

 

Nor would I again want to go through what I'll have to go through to add bolt detail and replace overscale planks on Lion, a purchase that I am now beginning to regret, because trying to re-do the planking to something closer to scale is looking like a nightmare and I might simply have to write this purchase off as an expensive dead-end. I'm sorry, but I just don't think the range works upscaled to 4mil.  I think WSF is a wholly unsuitable material for locos and rolling stock, so compromising the standards to accommodate the limitations of this material is the wrong approach, in my view.

 

I would have bought Derwent in FUD, as I did with Lion.  A significant investment, which I would have made but for the issues identified.  I'm not going to pay those prices with the issues identified, however. There are better, cheaper, alternatives to FUD. See my earlier comments on the use of resin, like Knuckles' prints.  

 

As the 'original sponsor' trying to get this prototype produced in 4mil this conclusion is a bit of a blow for me. It is not what I was expecting, and I fear that my frustration at your chosen approach is ill-disguised at this point..

[sem34090]

Hmm. It's a tricky one.

 

As the original creator of a 3D Printed model of Derwent, I know how challenging it was to get right. My planking, though finer than Rudi's, lacked any real relief. Although you, myself and several others wouldn't use WSF for a loco again as the cost is too great for the lack of quality, it is still the cheapest viable material offered by Shapeways. For selling, Shapeways is convenient, I myself still offer stuff on there should anyone want it and in a variety of materials. I put no more than a £5 mark up on anything and I only really do that to get the prices rounded up to the nearest '5'. As you know, I possess a photon myself and if Mr Knuckles feels he is able to meet demand then that's a fantastic development. I imagine that there might come a point, though, where demand is so high that it can no longer be met and costs have potential to rise As Well.

 

I must say that, looking over the CAD images I'm wondering if perhaps the relief detail could be sacrificed for the finer planking? Just a thought. Rudi and I talked quite extensively during the production of Derwent's latest rendition and I didn't consider the planking to be an issue then. Looking now, however, I'm afraid I have to agree that it does look a bit coarse for 4mm.

 

It's a difficult one. I agree with you, James, that it's a bit coarse but also understand that Rudi is doing this as a hobby - we all are - and I suspect, like all of us, he's learning as he goes. I'm not trying to say "If you could do better go and learn the CAD software and do better" as if one doesn't enjoy that then it defeats the object, but on the other hand I feel (probably hypocritically) that it is perhaps unfair to publicly judge someone's virtual modelling in a way that you might not publicly judge their physical modelling.

 

I expect I have just offended two friends there, so apologise for that.

Edited June 28, 2019 by sem34090

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

Hmm. It's a tricky one.

 

As the original creator of a 3D Printed model of Derwent, I know how challenging it was to get right. My planking, though finer than Rudi's, lacked any real relief. Although you, myself and several others wouldn't use WSF for a loco again as the cost is too great for the lack of quality, it is still the cheapest viable material offered by Shapeways. For selling, Shapeways is convenient, I myself still offer stuff on there should anyone want it and in a variety of materials. I put no more than a £5 mark up on anything and I only really do that to get the prices rounded up to the nearest '5'. As you know, I possess a photon myself and if Mr Knuckles feels he is able to meet demand then that's a fantastic development. I imagine that there might come a point, though, where demand is so high that it can no longer be met and costs have potential to rise As Well.

 

I must say that, looking over the CAD images I'm wondering if perhaps the relief detail could be sacrificed for the finer planking? Just a thought. Rudi and I talked quite extensively during the production of Derwent's latest rendition and I didn't consider the planking to be an issue then. Looking now, however, I'm afraid I have to agree that it does look a bit coarse for 4mm.

 

It's a difficult one. I agree with you, James, that it's a bit coarse but also understand that Rudi is doing this as a hobby - we all are - and I suspect, like all of us, he's learning as he goes. I'm not trying to say "If you could do better go and learn the CAD software and do better" as if one doesn't enjoy that then it defeats the object, but on the other hand I feel (probably hypocritically) that it is perhaps unfair to publicly judge someone's virtual modelling in a way that you might not publicly judge their physical modelling.

 

I expect I have just offended two friends there, so apologise for that.

 

Not offended. Rather, it is me who is being offensive.  I am conscious that mine was an ungracious post, but, then, I had some involvement in the original project, and, indeed, supplied material to Dr Newman in due course.  Dr Newman's willingness to take this on and the effort he has devoted to it are much appreciated and I am mortified to find that, despite this, I am unlikely to be among the customers for this print as it stands.

 

This project has been close to my heart for some time. You will recall that you had kindly offered to produce a 4mil model and that Dr Newman was asked essentially to continue where you'd left off. In doing so, he has made considerable strides, but he has taken them along his own path, designing primarily for a different scale and to the tolerances of a second-rate material.  That's up to him, of course - it's his model and his design and his business - but, for the reasons I have mentioned, it results in a model that does not fulfill the original brief. In other words, handing the project on has not had the intended result from the perspective of one of its progenitors.  This is particularly frustrating where I can see no good reason why the design could not be refined for finer tolerances.

 

I appreciate that this design makes some concessions to 4mil not found in the other models in the range, but it it remains too coarsely overscale, in my assessment. It is possible to capture finer detail and planking closer to scale; I've just bought a print that provides a good example of this.  The limitations of WSF have been prayed in aid of leaving the design as it is, however, as I say, if a certain material will not tolerate the level of detail required, the answer is not to make the design over-coarse to compensate, but to design for the better materials that are available. 

 

There seems to be a genuine 'artistic difference' here between designer and would be customer.  Fair enough, and no hard feelings, but having been publically committed to this product, but, at the risk of being rude, I do feel the need to explain, perhaps justify, why I am no longer intending to buy it.  

 

While on the subject of WSF, I did throw the gauntlet down over providing decent photographs that showed a coach printed in this material and also the work necessary to obtain an acceptable finish without loss of relief detail such as found on paneled vehicles in particular. The gauntlet has not been picked up, so I can only remain sceptical concerning the, frankly nevertheless rather expensive. coaches sold by another designer in this material.  

 

[Killian keane]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Not offended. Rather, it is me who is being offensive.  

 

Killian Keane rated your post agree 

[johnarcher]

Just a quick question from one who has not yet actually bought anything 3D. Partly I haven't because I am put off by the question of surface finish in things like locos and coaches (less so for wooden goods stock I suppose).

I have however been encouraged by some pictures of the resin prints Mr Sparkshot has produced. At the moment I believe these are done on a domestic machine, so I wonder is the technology there for someone to produce those sort of prints on the larger, Shapeways-like, scale? If it really produces prints of at least FUD quality at a lower price the opportunity seems to be there?

[Edwardian]

58 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Just a quick question from one who has not yet actually bought anything 3D. Partly I haven't because I am put off by the question of surface finish in things like locos and coaches (less so for wooden goods stock I suppose).

I have however been encouraged by some pictures of the resin prints Mr Sparkshot has produced. At the moment I believe these are done on a domestic machine, so I wonder is the technology there for someone to produce those sort of prints on the larger, Shapeways-like, scale? If it really produces prints of at least FUD quality at a lower price the opportunity seems to be there?

 

Various 3D hubs will link you to suppliers who print in this material.

 

As with everything in this world, seemingly, price structures often get in the way, e.g. one I had the opportunity to use would quote great prices but a minimum £10 charge plus a mandatory £15 postage charge on each component made it prohibitive. You have to shop around carefully.

 

There is a real need to produce prints in this material on a slightly more industrial scale, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

 

I have some of same Sparkshot (Knuckles)'s bodies in both Shapeways FUD and his own Photon resin. His own prints are smoother and much less expensive.    

 

His price list speaks volumes; yes, the cheaper prices are for the better quality!

Sparkshot Price List.pdf

[Rudititanic]

Never let it be said that I am not receptive to feedback.  While I stand by my past explanation, if you, Edwardian, are prepared to purchase a FUD/FED version (which will not be cheap, even though I do similar to Sem in having minimal markup) and in the knowledge that there is no guarantee whatsoever that the detail will necessarily successfully print/remain visible after sanding/painting, I am prepared to re-engineer the model with finer boiler slats/bands and reduced relief planking.  Usually such work would entail a commission fee – it being somewhat lengthy to undertake, will delay the release of other items and as noted has questionable economic viability – but as an experiment which I can learn from I am equally prepared to waive this fee in this instance.  As I have very little free time at present it will take a while to complete, but I cannot say fairer. 

 

If you agree to this I would like to know if you want strict scale relief or a relative compromise such as the dimensions of my N Gauge models transposed to 00. 

[Edwardian]

45 minutes ago, Rudititanic said:

Never let it be said that I am not receptive to feedback.  While I stand by my past explanation, if you, Edwardian, are prepared to purchase a FUD/FED version (which will not be cheap, even though I do similar to Sem in having minimal markup) and in the knowledge that there is no guarantee whatsoever that the detail will necessarily successfully print/remain visible after sanding/painting, I am prepared to re-engineer the model with finer boiler slats/bands and reduced relief planking.  Usually such work would entail a commission fee – it being somewhat lengthy to undertake, will delay the release of other items and as noted has questionable economic viability – but as an experiment which I can learn from I am equally prepared to waive this fee in this instance.  As I have very little free time at present it will take a while to complete, but I cannot say fairer. 

 

If you agree to this I would like to know if you want strict scale relief or a relative compromise such as the dimensions of my N Gauge models transposed to 00. 

 

That sounds very positive, thank you.  Indeed, you cannot say further. I realise that I had been rather more forthright than is usual for me - and I apologise for that.  Extraneous matters have afflicted my mood recently, and I offer that by way of explanation and apology, rather than excuse. 

 

I do not think exact scale representation is practical, as I have said. I do think, however, that something closer to scale could be achieved.  If you are willing to give it a go, I will certainly order FUD prints.  I am in your hands and will be happy to wait.  I do think that the exercise will be worthwhile, however, and I will certainly do my best to promote further sales! 

[Rudititanic]

I shall do my best in the time I have available.

[Rudititanic]

Two updates: several new items have been added to my broad gauge range which can be found at https://www.shapeways.com/shops/newman-miniatures?section=N+Broad+Gauge&s=0 Matching locomotive(s) to follow at some point soon!

 

Secondly, in a first for me I present a diesel engine - Hunslet shunter 'Sweet Pea' (also known as 'Courage'). Now preserved, it is believed to be Britain's smallest standard-gauge diesel, and is tiny!  https://www.shapeways.com/product/TN42PFQ2H/n-gauge-hunslet-diesel-sweet-pea-aka-courage

 

 

[Albyn]

I obtained some suitable wheels from a pal for Derwent and fitted a trial overlay on the wheel.  As Romford wheels have a coned tread, as per real railway wheels the overlay is about 0.5 mm too large a diameter and so fouls the the wheel treads.  It is also very thick and looks rather overscale.  I presume a significantly  thinner overlay is not possible if 3D printed.  I remember the gentleman who started the job produced a pdf for the wheel overlays so that might be a better option.  Perhaps he could please email it to me at albynaustin@gmail.com.  Ideally I suppose it could be made in etched brass.

The planking on Derwent compares well with that on the whitemetal old K's Titfield Thunderbolt/Lion kit.  The width and depth are about the same in fact.  In 4mm overscale looks more realistic sometimes than exactitude.  The gaps could be made smaller fairly easily with plastic strip to reduce the width.  

 

edwardian remarked that he had not seen a 3D printed coach.  Here is a view of the trailer for the Shropshire and Montgomery's Gazelle, an ex-London horse tram, with the roof and end balconies removed, that was used on the Criggion branch in the 1920s.  It is 67mm long in 4mm, the view below being about actual size.  The enlarged view shows the  finish, suitably tatty with a couple of coats of paint flatted down with flour paper and then top coated in LBSCR brown with a bit of frame dirt.  needs a bit of finishing off of course.  I am happy with the result but of course others may disagree.

regards,

Albyn

[sem34090]

I think you've confused myself and Rudi, Albyn - I produced 3D wheels, Rudi produced the PDF overlays.

[Killian keane]

Thars a very nice little coach Albyn,  is it your own design or where did you get it?  I had an idea in the back of my mind to do Gazelle some day

[Rudititanic]

Albyn, thanks for the feedback.  The overlay was an experimental commission but as it plainly has limitations (largely from printing tolerances) I'll look into this more.  I'll also email you the pdf immediately.  Good to know re the planking as well thanks and interesting to see the coach.

 

Killian - I scratchbuilt Gazelle in N a while back, and had the pleasure of clambering over the prototype.  She's a tiny little wonder!

[Albyn]

1 hour ago, Killian keane said:

Thars a very nice little coach Albyn,  is it your own design or where did you get it?  I had an idea in the back of my mind to do Gazelle some day

 

It is produced by Simon Dawson of this group who trades on Shapeways as Recreation 21 and is available in all the usual scales.  I also used the new Lightmoor press book on the Colonel Stephens Railmotors.  This includes drawings of Gazelle and its trailers, with updated drawings by Les Darbyshire of the ones that appeared 50 years ago in the MRN using information that has turned up since then.  The first London tramcar trailer that I picture is now much shorter than Les's original drawing.  At the time he didn't realise that London horse trams came in two lengths - a long one for flat routes, length known, which was the basis for his original drawing, and a short one for hilly routes which is the one Stephens bought.  Crich now have the body for one of these. There are also some great photos reporoduced in very good quality, many never published before from the Col Stephens Rlwy Museum collection (where the preserved Gazelle lives) and a much updated text from the original version that appeared 20 odd years ago.  Basically it's a new book.  The Pickering steam railmotor features also as well as the Drewrys, Fords and Shefflex cars for which Stephens is famous.

[Albyn]

On 04/07/2019 at 16:49, Rudititanic said:

Two updates: several new items have been added to my broad gauge range which can be found at https://www.shapeways.com/shops/newman-miniatures?section=N+Broad+Gauge&s=0 Matching locomotive(s) to follow at some point soon!

 

Secondly, in a first for me I present a diesel engine - Hunslet shunter 'Sweet Pea' (also known as 'Courage'). Now preserved, it is believed to be Britain's smallest standard-gauge diesel, and is tiny!  https://www.shapeways.com/product/TN42PFQ2H/n-gauge-hunslet-diesel-sweet-pea-aka-courage

 

 

 

I wonder which is smaller - this one or Gazelle!  Gazelle weighs 5.5 tons and has a 10ft 6in wheelbase, 17ft 2in long.

[Albyn]

1 hour ago, Rudititanic said:

Albyn, thanks for the feedback.  The overlay was an experimental commission but as it plainly has limitations (largely from printing tolerances) I'll look into this more.  I'll also email you the pdf immediately.  Good to know re the planking as well thanks and interesting to see the coach.

 

Killian - I scratchbuilt Gazelle in N a while back, and had the pleasure of clambering over the prototype.  She's a tiny little wonder!

 

Thank you very much!

regards,

Albyn

[Rudititanic]

1 hour ago, Albyn said:

 

I wonder which is smaller - this one or Gazelle!  Gazelle weighs 5.5 tons and has a 10ft 6in wheelbase, 17ft 2in long.

 

Well Gazelle is certainly shorter in height (and I suspect lighter)!

[Killian keane]

2 hours ago, Albyn said:

 

It is produced by Simon Dawson of this group who trades on Shapeways as Recreation 21 and is available in all the usual scales.  I also used the new Lightmoor press book on the Colonel Stephens Railmotors.  This includes drawings of Gazelle and its trailers, with updated drawings by Les Darbyshire of the ones that appeared 50 years ago in the MRN using information that has turned up since then.  The first London tramcar trailer that I picture is now much shorter than Les's original drawing.  At the time he didn't realise that London horse trams came in two lengths - a long one for flat routes, length known, which was the basis for his original drawing, and a short one for hilly routes which is the one Stephens bought.  Crich now have the body for one of these. There are also some great photos reporoduced in very good quality, many never published before from the Col Stephens Rlwy Museum collection (where the preserved Gazelle lives) and a much updated text from the original version that appeared 20 odd years ago.  Basically it's a new book.  The Pickering steam railmotor features also as well as the Drewrys, Fords and Shefflex cars for which Stephens is famous.

Aaah,  I know his brother,  I knew he did Severn and a ho gazelle but didn't know about the coach,  thanks

[Albyn]

Have been working on Gazelle and trailer - photo attached - I realise green could do with a touch up! 

[Rudititanic]

Looking great. 

 

With the modified Derwent complete, a new engine is now in the workshop under construction - something that has made news recently for moving to a new home...  

[sem34090]

Invicta?!

[Rudititanic]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

Invicta?!

 

One and the same.  The current intention is to provide in the usual N and 00 scales, but with alternatives showing the engine both in its rebuilt condition and as originally built complete with two-wheel tender.  NB the render below is very early days with much to add (and no doubt modify).

 

Fun times ahead!

 

 

[CF MRC]

Fred Flintstone’s engine?

 

Tim

[Rudititanic]

Commercial wheels are used; those depicted are simply to ensure clearance.