Hornby Discount Limits

[Ouroborus]

Having just completed an inventory of my locos, I think there are a lot of us around

[Dunsignalling]

What might be a better question to ask, is not if you are a collector, but how many locos do you own.

I have to be honest and say i’d be scared to admit, as the truth is scary.

 

I’d hazard that’s there’s a few people on here, with more models than their local model shop, and some with more locos than would be considered a “limited edition” volume.

 

Remember a model shop might have 20 for preorders, and have 1 or 2 in the cabinet, those buying them.. it’s another box in the wall..on top of the last, and the one before, and before.. and so on for 20+ years.

Guilty as charged m'lud.

 

The layout I'm currently working on will accommodate no more than a dozen locos at a time. The larger ones will be rotated, my intention being to avoid the same loco coming back sooner than it could from a prototypical duty. My display cabinet will hold at least another dozen, providing an excuse (just) for my "Rule Oners".

 

The big wardrobe in the front bedroom/railway room contains roughly 120 locos/units*, accumulated over the past quarter century or so. Only about a third of them have so far been "prepped" for operation. For me that means, fitting Kadee couplers, a crew, headcode discs/lamps, etched plates where applicable, close coupling of tenders and a variable amount of weathering. 

 

Collector or Modeller? Unequivocally, both, though the direction of travel should be from the former to the latter.   

 

John

 

* I fear the true figure, if "audited", would be even more scary. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

I could probably stock a fairly large club layout on my own ... nudging 200 locos with rolling stock to fit too, with the hope of one day having a layout to make use of them (at least infrequently). Amassed through years of picking up bargains, thinking I could renumber/repaint/modify some things and not yet finding the time to get round to it. I probably am nearing saturation point before the wife notices the cupboards around the house overflowing with blue and red boxes!!

 

It does make it easier to pass on new models which have been around for a few years with hugely inflating prices although new tooling models can still be tempting. I would worry for the industry as a whole if there are many like me around, I can easily wait for stock dumping to fill in minor gaps left in my collection.

 

Clubs often find themselves with members full of stock to run on them but have too few with skills to build decent and detailed and realistic layout!

 

Building a layout is to pass to the dark side of the hobby whereby you realise you cannot possibly ever run all of your stock and boxing and unboxing is such a pain. You then start to yearn for the old days when things were simpler in that you had less than 10 locos to play with.

And suddenly it hits you, I will model only that region and time period. Difficult to do at first, the light keeps tempting you with all new models like a Dynamometer car or an APT-P until the dark side draws you finally in.

 

I recently put back the Overhead Head Electric on to the layout thinking I could add a new 87 or a new class 90 - the light side tempting me yet again. But today's fine scale panto's - when sprung - don't act like pantos, deforming to odd shapes as soon as they hit the wires (EM1 is dreadful, cannot move even an inch). Yesterdays old OHE locos, just look so toy like and posable works just about, just avoid tunnels and don't stop the train. Then the nose of that APT-E drives straight into the OHE posts when it goes round the bend too.

Why oh why did I think it would be a good idea to put back the OHE? The dark side says, give it up now and be a good boy and build an SECR J class kit instead. Concentrate only on the SECR, you don't need anything else. You wife will complain less too... Look SECR with DCC sound.... Look an SECR 6 wheel coach kit... look an SECR wagon kit... No, keep away from OO-9.... No you don't need an all new 66... come to the dark side of hobby away from collecting and into modelling.... come to the dark side....

[Big James]

I’m currently working on my BR(SR) south western layout but that hasn’t stopped me buying stock for my dream layout which is set on Romney Marsh but it’s years away but I decided to start getting stock while I could afford it and the models are available. But I’ve decided to scrub getting thing I would like and stick to things I need.

 

Big James

[Andy Hayter]

Several posters have suggested that setting a maximum discount increases Hornby profits and I am struggling to understand that.

Let's leave aside the obvious point that Hornby are not making a profit so they can hardly increase what they don't have. 

 

They sell to retailers at a price and what the eventual sales price is  does not impact on the price that Hornby charges.  If Hornby suddenly reduced its sales price to retailers after 6 weeks I could understand that they might make extra margin during the first 6 weeks, but I find no evidence of this.  

 

Hornby's own direct sales might just improve if the deep discounters are limited in the discount given, but let's test that.  If you knew you would get a 10% reduction from one of the discounters, would you buy direct from Hornby at full price - I doubt it.

 

So where does this extra profit that Hornby supposedly gets come from?   You are (potentially) paying more for your models during the first 6 weeks, but who pockets that extra cash?  Not Hornby. but the retailer - and hopefully some of that goes to the local model shop as well as the discounters.

 

If a model sells badly compared with the number produced, then after a few months the producer will need to look at whether it makes sense  reducing his margin (selling more cheaply to the retailers) so that they in turn can sell more cheaply to the public - but this has nothing to do with the first 6 weeks embargo on deep discounting.

[Legend]

Several posters have suggested that setting a maximum discount increases Hornby profits and I am struggling to understand that.

Let's leave aside the obvious point that Hornby are not making a profit so they can hardly increase what they don't have.

 

They sell to retailers at a price and what the eventual sales price is does not impact on the price that Hornby charges. If Hornby suddenly reduced its sales price to retailers after 6 weeks I could understand that they might make extra margin during the first 6 weeks, but I find no evidence of this.

 

Hornby's own direct sales might just improve if the deep discounters are limited in the discount given, but let's test that. If you knew you would get a 10% reduction from one of the discounters, would you buy direct from Hornby at full price - I doubt it.

 

So where does this extra profit that Hornby supposedly gets come from? You are (potentially) paying more for your models during the first 6 weeks, but who pockets that extra cash? Not Hornby. but the retailer - and hopefully some of that goes to the local model shop as well as the discounters.

 

If a model sells badly compared with the number produced, then after a few months the producer will need to look at whether it makes sense reducing his margin (selling more cheaply to the retailers) so that they in turn can sell more cheaply to the public - but this has nothing to do with the first 6 weeks embargo on deep discounting.

I don’t think it’s about making more money for Hornby at all . As you say Hornby have sold the goods anyway. I think it is a well meaning attempt to level the playing field for some of the smaller shops against some of the big players . Possibly a reaction to those that are commissioning their own models . But as Ouroborus says it will make little difference to shops facing large increases in their rates bills. So ultimately I think it’s misguided. It’s of dubious legality , as we have seen from some of the postings here , and as I’ve said in previous post although it’s only model trains , the fact that three big players now broadly have the same policy could attract some attention.

 

But there are double standards here . Much is made of manufacturers supporting their retail base , and while there maybe some issues other than price I still think the main factor is the huge increase in cost of models. This directly affects the number of people buying models but also means shops have to invest a lot more to carry the stock and have working capital tied up . Coupled with uncertainty they will sell the item , this has got to be a major factor for small shops.Then there’s the added cost due to technical complexity. At the top end of the market people don’t just want that expensive loco , they want it DCC fitted or with DCC sound. Small shops can’t stock all these variations, DCC ready, DCC fitted, Sound . And of course the more expensive an item becomes the more you shop around looking for the best price . There could be £50 in it! And it’s not just locos . Coaches are trending north of £45 and now there are variants , even more expensive, with DCC on them too . What would you stock? How about Freightliner wagons at £70 a pop , how many of them will you stock ?

 

Really the way the market has changed makes a small retail shop unsustainable. I’m afraid the days of the nice old guy with a brown overall selling you the R563 signal box, which he happens to have in stock just in case you want one, with shelves of stock sitting behind him, has already gone. Much that I wished it hadnt.

 

The reality is this discounting announcement will have little effect .

Edited September 21, 2018 by Legend

[jjb1970]

I think different things have been conflated in this thread, particularly with respect to the price of models. Limiting the discount offered by retailers is a different matter from Hornby pricing and although there may be a consequential benefit for Hornby if the policy helps them offload all of their stock to retailers it won't change what Hornby charge those retailers for stock.

[JSpencer]

I think different things have been conflated in this thread, particularly with respect to the price of models. Limiting the discount offered by retailers is a different matter from Hornby pricing and although there may be a consequential benefit for Hornby if the policy helps them offload all of their stock to retailers it won't change what Hornby charge those retailers for stock.

 

Indeed, they will need to measure the success or not to see if it really does offload more stock onto shops. The problem is, they started mid year rather than from the announcement of 2019's range. So measuring the success of this is made harder and more subjective.

 

They need to know if overall sales remain the same or improve. That would be an indicator of success. If sales plunge (small shops don't order more while big shops order less), then it failed. Unfortunately starting mid year whereby all pre-orders for the 2018 range are already in, makes measuring that KPI harder.

 

If you want to level the playing field, it needs to be through a reward system, whereby the shop is rewarded for sales it made. The amount rewarded non-specified, tied in with other conditions, like you have pay on time. Those that do not pay on time have their reward distributed to others. It would work for pure Hornby accounts.

You also need to guarantee pre sales with a pre-sale price vs post sale price. You could have a new form of concession, the model shop logs an end customers pre-order into a Hornby system. Hornby gaurantees all pre-orders in this system will be met and that if the model is not perfect, it will be replaced. Warranty is extended to 18 months for ths pre-order because the item won't be sitting on a shelf for 2 years. The shop still handles the financial transaction.

 

You are then making it attractive to pre-order while leveling the pre-order playing field.

[adb968008]

If you want to level the playing field, it needs to be through a reward system, whereby the shop is rewarded for sales it made. The amount rewarded non-specified, tied in with other conditions, like you have pay on time. Those that do not pay on time have their reward distributed to others. It would work for pure Hornby accounts.

 

How do you measure sales...

To Hornby that’s the invoice for stock sent... but is that a true qualifying sale...?

If the shop orders 10, sells 1 in 6 weeks, and 9 in discounted week 7...

 

All it’s achieved is tying up the retailers cash for 6 weeks...is that worthy of an award ?

If the retailer is cash strapped, you’ll still see them trickled out on ebay under a pseudonym.

 

Trying to force minimum discount levels will probably back fire.

 

My suggestion to how Hornby can achieve higher price on new releases is to adopt stepped pricing... for instance...

Here an example, using assumed numbers..

 

£200 RRP new release

£127 trade on that new release.

£160 typical 20% discount offered by retailers today.

Margin £33

 

But, if Hornby want to stop mass discounting on release, they could step the pricing, and reduce it after 6 weeks...

 

£220 RRP with 10% new release premium

£139 trade with 10% premium

£176 typical 20% discount offered by retailers

Margin £37

 

Hornby gets more, Retailer gets more.

It puts risk into over stocking.. at release you can only discount to a point which is higher than it will be in 6 weeks, so if you do it will hurt you as you won’t be covering tax and costs.

 

After 6 weeks, if the retailer replenishes stock at the lower £200 RRP, Hornby could additionally offer a successful sale rebate, of that initial 10% margin, (In the region of £5/10 each loco) purchased in the initial order set against (and upto) the same quality purchased in a subsequent order or as a milestone credit later in the year.

 

Similarly if the retailer cannot assume risk at that volume at outset, they can wait, or order in lower volume.. which is precisely what is needed to stop the mass discounting initially.. over ordering.

 

Net result, price is higher, margin is better at the outset, and the incentive is there for retailers to both sell in the 6 week outset without a lower overall price and a higher margin after with the rebate, and it lowers risk of over ordering by retailers.., which is the root of mass discounting.

 

As for warranty, I’ve been saying for years, manufacturers should add a sticker on the box / chassis with a unique ID code, it would help in warranty assignment, in this case proof of sale, and for the customer it’s an insurance identifier... not rocket science.. go look at your £200 washing machine or DVD player... (European HO scale manufacturers have been doing this for years).

Edited September 21, 2018 by adb968008

[Ouroborus]

This levelling of the playing would, to my mind, only work if people change their spending ways because everyone is charging the same price.

 

I order from Rails/Hattons/MRD because there isn't a shop local to me that I can get to for the £4 it costs me in postage. Its going to take me a couple of hours and a few quid in petrol, plus parking to visit a nearby shop. If I know that the model is going to be effectively be the same price everywhere, then assuming I still it want it at the higher price, I'll go to the one that costs me the least time and money to get it. The "Amazon prime effect". Click now, have it tomorrow.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see any answers to this problem of how do we support the little guys unless perhaps they take their outlets to Amazon. We all like to say what a nasty pasty Amazon is, but at the end of the day, it's bloody convenient.

[Fireline]

Hornby sells at a set price to the trade, irrespective of whether the product then sells for £100 or £1000. Hornby make no extra money by prices being kept high. They charge RRP on their own web site, unless the item is reduced for a sale. Hornby does not charge more to the trade for stock in the first six weeks, or lower the price after the six weeks is up.

[adb968008]

Hornby sells at a set price to the trade, irrespective of whether the product then sells for £100 or £1000. Hornby make no extra money by prices being kept high. They charge RRP on their own web site, unless the item is reduced for a sale. Hornby does not charge more to the trade for stock in the first six weeks, or lower the price after the six weeks is up.

Agreed, but it’s not the point.

 

It has been suggested Hornby is trying to coerce retailers into adopting a temporary minimum discount strategy.

Much of this debate is on legalities.

Another tone is how they could do it, more constructively.

Then there is the “how dare they”, “it’s too expensive” etc trail.

 

I don’t think there’s a dispute about there past model, other than it’s about to change, to which resistance is a usual part of the course.

 

I would add, the path to least resistance is via consultation, but by many anecdotes Hornby doesn’t seem to be good at that, and there’s some suggestion the route to their current issues is because of that, hence probably why this thread is 6 pages already.

 

It’s worth considering that against the similar Heljan discount thread, which is only 4 pages, much content is about “where is the shop” and “who sells Heljan anyway”, and Bachmann who doesn’t have a thread at all but allegedly been suggested to have operated this model for decades, without complaint. This in itself could suggest Hornby has a dominant position and a wider impact than the former mentioned.

 

Chances are loopholes, work arounds will see it falter to default anyway, However discussing here is not likely to change any outcome at Hornby, but least it’s better than opening your back door and howling at the moon about it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by adb968008

[Trains4U]

Agreed, but it’s not the point.

 

It has been suggested Hornby is trying to coerce retailers into adopting a temporary minimum discount strategy.

Much of this debate is on legalities.

Another tone is how they could do it, more constructively.

Then there is the “how dare they”, “it’s too expensive” etc trail.

 

I don’t think there’s a dispute about there past model, other than it’s about to change, to which resistance is a usual part of the course.

 

I would add, the path to least resistance is via consultation, but by many anecdotes Hornby doesn’t seem to be good at that, and there’s some suggestion the route to their current issues is because of that, hence probably why this thread is 6 pages already.

 

It’s worth considering that against the similar Heljan discount thread, which is only 4 pages, much content is about “where is the shop” and “who sells Heljan anyway”, and Bachmann who doesn’t have a thread at all but allegedly been suggested to have operated this model for decades, without complaint. This in itself could suggest Hornby has a dominant position and a wider impact than the former mentioned.

 

Chances are loopholes, work arounds will see it falter to default anyway, However discussing here is not likely to change any outcome at Hornby, but least it’s better than opening your back door and howling at the moon about it.

 

Bachmann have been doing this for six and a half years (not decades) 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53592-Bachmann-pricing-policy-to-retailers/page-1

 

And there were 6 pages about it then...

Edited September 21, 2018 by Trains4U

[Phil Parker]

Really the way the market has changed makes a small retail shop unsustainable. I’m afraid the days of the nice old guy with a brown overall selling you the R563 signal box, which he happens to have in stock just in case you want one, with shelves of stock sitting behind him, has already gone. Much that I wished it hadnt.

 

 

That's odd, because 2 miles away from me is a shop that's been doing that for over 15 years - Classic Train & Motor Bus in George Street, Leamington Spa. He's not the only one either. They key seems to be out of the town centre where rents and rates are lower. People will travel to a specialist.

[JSpencer]

That's odd, because 2 miles away from me is a shop that's been doing that for over 15 years - Classic Train & Motor Bus in George Street, Leamington Spa. He's not the only one either. They key seems to be out of the town centre where rents and rates are lower. People will travel to a specialist.

With ease of parking....

 

It needs to be promoted though.

[Phil Parker]

With ease of parking....

 

It needs to be promoted though.

 

Not really, it's full most of the time. Mind you, with a capacity of 4 people as long as they don't move around too much, full is pretty easy to achieve!

[Legend]

That's odd, because 2 miles away from me is a shop that's been doing that for over 15 years - Classic Train & Motor Bus in George Street, Leamington Spa. He's not the only one either. They key seems to be out of the town centre where rents and rates are lower. People will travel to a specialist.

Enjoy it while you can.

[adb968008]

Bachmann have been doing this for six and a half years (not decades)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53592-Bachmann-pricing-policy-to-retailers/page-1

 

And there were 6 pages about it then...

I might have a longer memory, that predates web forums and most websites. As mentioned earlier Replica were doing this in the late 1980’s.. just look at any mag advert from that period...it was rrp across the board.

 

This is nothing new.

Edited September 21, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

I might have a longer memory, that predates web forums and most websites. As mentioned earlier Replica were doing this in the late 1980’s.. just look at any mag advert from that period...it was rrp across the board.

This is nothing new.

When I worked at the Signal Box, we got round that by unboxing the wagons and coaches and selling them in baskets at shows 50p cheaper than boxed (a Replica wagon was about a fiver boxed back then).

They sold like hot cakes at shows and in the shop. We never advertised them for mail order though.

 

We even did experiment once selling the unboxed ones at a show at the same price as the boxed ones which were next to the basket. There must have been a psychological thing over un-boxed wagons because the 40 or so unboxed ones were sold by the end of the day while not a single boxed one had shifted.

Godfrey Hayes was most impressed we could sell so much stock without appearing to offer a discount anywhere for these in the adverts.

[adb968008]

When I worked at the Signal Box, we got round that by unboxing the wagons and coaches and selling them in baskets at shows 50p cheaper than boxed (a Replica wagon was about a fiver boxed back then).

They sold like hot cakes at shows and in the shop. We never advertised them for mail order though.

We even did experiment once selling the unboxed ones at a show at the same price as the boxed ones which were next to the basket. There must have been a psychological thing over un-boxed wagons because the 40 or so unboxed ones were sold by the end of the day while not a single boxed one had shifted.

Godfrey Hayes was most impressed we could sell so much stock without appearing to offer a discount anywhere for these in the adverts.

More clever than me, at BR opendays catering was hiked up, as stands couldn’t sell food.

So instead I gave it away ... crisps, chocolate or drinks, when they made a purchase... they could save a fiver or more on snacks at show prices, which cost <£1 wholesale.

 

Old dog, old tricks, this move by Hornby will have its workarounds with today’s traders, as it’s old ideas in new print, which makes me doubt its seriousness.

Edited September 22, 2018 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

Although I think this move is well intentioned it is the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster over a serious wound, it won't address the underlying reasons why smaller retailers have been struggling and I can't see it rebalancing the market away from the retailers with a big online presence.

 

Even if we take the issues around business rates out of the discussion (and that is a big problem for many retailers, not just small ones) then the question is what do small local shops offer to make it worth supporting them? I tend to find that small local specialist shops that are still thriving offer reasons to support them, that might be very competitive pricing, it might be maintaining excellent stocks of whatever it is they sell including hard to find gems, it may be first class service, it may be offering classes, it may be hosting a coffee shop or all sorts of other hooks to keep people visiting. And in many cases it is under pinned by a successful online presence, lest we forget most of the big online model retailers still have a physical shop presence (even if it is basically a sales counter at their warehouse in the case of Hattons), there is nothing stopping any retailer developing their online sales. Some small model shops do it extremely well, the hobby shop in Faversham does it extremely well and combines great service with competitive pricing. What won't wash these days is a shop with below average stock and indifferent service and prices. I know we're supposed to venerate the small local shop but in my experience a big reason many of them folded was that they offered no reason to support them, whether it be small local model shops, hifi shops, bike shops etc.

 

If a shop has it's own USP it doesn't need a manufacturer trying to protect it by controlling pricing. The big online shops will find ways to manipulate this anyway, obvious ones include offering free postage, a loyalty scheme, preferential offers on other products linked to purchases etc.

[The Stationmaster]

Although I think this move is well intentioned it is the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster over a serious wound, it won't address the underlying reasons why smaller retailers have been struggling and I can't see it rebalancing the market away from the retailers with a big online presence.

 

Even if we take the issues around business rates out of the discussion (and that is a big problem for many retailers, not just small ones) then the question is what do small local shops offer to make it worth supporting them? I tend to find that small local specialist shops that are still thriving offer reasons to support them, that might be very competitive pricing, it might be maintaining excellent stocks of whatever it is they sell including hard to find gems, it may be first class service, it may be offering classes, it may be hosting a coffee shop or all sorts of other hooks to keep people visiting. And in many cases it is under pinned by a successful online presence, lest we forget most of the big online model retailers still have a physical shop presence (even if it is basically a sales counter at their warehouse in the case of Hattons), there is nothing stopping any retailer developing their online sales. Some small model shops do it extremely well, the hobby shop in Faversham does it extremely well and combines great service with competitive pricing. What won't wash these days is a shop with below average stock and indifferent service and prices. I know we're supposed to venerate the small local shop but in my experience a big reason many of them folded was that they offered no reason to support them, whether it be small local model shops, hifi shops, bike shops etc.

 

If a shop has it's own USP it doesn't need a manufacturer trying to protect it by controlling pricing. The big online shops will find ways to manipulate this anyway, obvious ones include offering free postage, a loyalty scheme, preferential offers on other products linked to purchases etc.

 

The most immediately local of my 'local' model shops is c.1 hour's drive away from home (the other is several counties away as it happens).  The nearest one I have been frequenting since it first opened when Bob Treacher decided to set up on his own -since then the premises has moved to a far larger one just along the road, and Bob has retired and his son Paul has taken over the business.  But some very important things are constant - firstly the excellent and friendly service, secondly the huge variety of stock (which  is not wholly railway models and also includes books), third the free car parking (albeit limited in space), fourth reliable pre-ordering - you pre-order and Alton Model Centre invariably gets things in for regulars even if the big H is rationing supply, fifth a nice cuppa and interesting/informed chat, and for those who want them Paul also does repairs.  Every loco I buy is tested in my presence before it is handed over to me and I can buy, and have bought, such less common items as C&L track.  Prices?  - well basically you get what you pay for and I'm paying for what the shop offers compared with a mail order shed lost on a trading estate or wherever it may be.

 

The High Street around is of course changing - the excellent butcher across the road has closed down so there's no longer too much point in Mrs Stationmaster coming with me to do serious food shopping but the town still has a pretty good shopping centre.

 

Overall the message is simple - with a shop that good it is worth driving for an hour or so to get there and equally as there is a shop that good within reasonable reach I'd be a fool not to support it (and so would anybody else).

[paftrain]

Although I think this move is well intentioned it is the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster over a serious wound, it won't address the underlying reasons why smaller retailers have been struggling and I can't see it rebalancing the market away from the retailers with a big online presence.

 

Even if we take the issues around business rates out of the discussion (and that is a big problem for many retailers, not just small ones) then the question is what do small local shops offer to make it worth supporting them? I tend to find that small local specialist shops that are still thriving offer reasons to support them, that might be very competitive pricing, it might be maintaining excellent stocks of whatever it is they sell including hard to find gems, it may be first class service, it may be offering classes, it may be hosting a coffee shop or all sorts of other hooks to keep people visiting. And in many cases it is under pinned by a successful online presence, lest we forget most of the big online model retailers still have a physical shop presence (even if it is basically a sales counter at their warehouse in the case of Hattons), there is nothing stopping any retailer developing their online sales. Some small model shops do it extremely well, the hobby shop in Faversham does it extremely well and combines great service with competitive pricing. What won't wash these days is a shop with below average stock and indifferent service and prices. I know we're supposed to venerate the small local shop but in my experience a big reason many of them folded was that they offered no reason to support them, whether it be small local model shops, hifi shops, bike shops etc.

 

If a shop has it's own USP it doesn't need a manufacturer trying to protect it by controlling pricing. The big online shops will find ways to manipulate this anyway, obvious ones include offering free postage, a loyalty scheme, preferential offers on other products linked to purchases etc.

Excuse my ignorance- what is a USP?

[GordonC]

Excuse my ignorance- what is a USP?

 

Unique Selling Point

[jjb1970]

I think the stationmaster provides a good example of a shop that clearly offers something to encourage customers t travel and support it. If a shop wants people to make an effort to visit and to do business in an era of very slick, convenient online shopping then I think it has to provide a reason to do so. Shops that do that will find their customers and thrive. I also think there is an element of "if the mountain won't come to mohammed then mohammed must go to the mountain" in retail, if more and more specialist retail is shifting to online shopping then retailers need to consider their online presence. Shops like Rails, Hattons, Kernow and a lot of smaller shops have made a huge effort to develop their online presence and I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to make the most of the efforts they've made. I still think the best model train website is Model Railways Direct, they're not necessarily the cheapest shop but I'm drawn to them because of their excellent web design, another example of where a business can offer something to customers. Another area shops can improve their position is by commissioning their own products. Kernow aren't a large business but they've developed into being as much a manufacturer as Hornby in an era where the "manufacturers" with the exception of Bachmann are paying somebody else to make their product. That must have been a massive financial risk for a small business, and they did it without asking customers to foot the bill and take the risk, such boldness deserves success IMO and is another example of a shop evolving to meet change.