Burngullow Lane. - On the main line through Legend Land.

[treggyman]

5 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

With the invaluable and essential help of the lady of the house I've finally got round to (plucked up the courage in other words) the overdue job of installing the backdrop. An ID Backscenes version was chosen as being the nearest I could find to resemble the real location - although Burngullow Lane is of course is 'the spirit of'.

 

We're ⅔ of the way round now, with the boards held in position with blu-tack for the moment. So, this is the model...

 

 

... and this photo is the real place. A lot of blending in with vegetation etc needs doing, especially near the bridges etc. Also I will have to figure out a way of representing some 'Cornish Alps'.

 

 

However, I have a question. I'm not going to do anything hasty but my initial thoughts were that the backdrop needs lowering by about 1". In order to do this I will need to cut this amount from the bottom - not a disaster if I decide that wasn't the thing to do but awkward in places. But on coming back indoors I looked at the real place on Google and I'm now changing my mind...

 

As I said, I'm doing nothing in a hurry, especially as we will be near the real Burngullow for Christmas so I can have a look at the actual place. In the meantime though, what do others think? I realise it's all a question of point of view and perspective (In all senses) but I'd like to do the best I can.

Hi

Although the backscene looks fine, to my eye it's not 'lumpy' enough to represent the Clay Country area.

If you look at the excellent backscene (I've used them myself) it's a smooth ,almost level skyline.

Even though your real picture is only a short width it has far more lumps & bumps (stacks trees background hills etc).

This is mainly due (in my opinion) to the immediate background being more dominant/closer than the distant horizon which almost can't be seen,& where it is it's not smooth.

I would almost be inclined to RAISE the backscene & glue pictures of trees/stacks/clay spoil dumps etc in front to give a feeling of more depth.

To try to get a feel of Clay Country in my layout Penhallick Junction I made a collage of pictures taken from varying distances away from St Dennis to form my backscene.

I have an advantage.....I don't live far away so it wasn't difficult for me but the best bit was that at exhibitions the locals recognised the area even pointing out specific features even though they were confused by some being mirror image when I'd flipped them to form a join.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that your proposed backscene doesn't shout to me CLAY COUNTRY.......it looks fine although I think it still needs to be higher to be more dominant but as it stands is too distant without something in front to give it depth....

Hopefully this makes sense & I'm not being negative but it's how I look at your excellent layout.

 

I'm really enjoying following your progress & keep up the good work.....

 

Cheers Bill

 

 

[TrevorP1]

2 hours ago, Chamby said:

Looking good, Trevor!  

 

Re: dropping the backscene an inch, I’m probably with you on this.  Alternatively, you could perhaps achieve the same result if you increase the height of the hedgerow to the left of the cottages, so that it blends into the tree line on the backscene behind it.  There’s a thin sliver of light green fields running across the view, that stands out to my eye... hiding this behind the hedge would get rid.

The hedge is due for attention Phil. The colour of the flock material isn’t right to me - it changed as the glue dried. There will be more here to blend in with trees near the bridge so that strip of light green would be  hidden.
 

Off hand I can’t  remember the name of the dry with the square chimney but I’d like to include a 2d version of that as it’s quite a landmark. Again that will need vegetation to blend it in.

 

Lots to think about!

Edited November 21, 2021 by TrevorP1
Gobbledegook!

[TrevorP1]

10 minutes ago, treggyman said:

Hi

Although the backscene looks fine, to my eye it's not 'lumpy' enough to represent the Clay Country area.

If you look at the excellent backscene (I've used them myself) it's a smooth ,almost level skyline.

Even though your real picture is only a short width it has far more lumps & bumps (stacks trees background hills etc).

This is mainly due (in my opinion) to the immediate background being more dominant/closer than the distant horizon which almost can't be seen,& where it is it's not smooth.

I would almost be inclined to RAISE the backscene & glue pictures of trees/stacks/clay spoil dumps etc in front to give a feeling of more depth.

To try to get a feel of Clay Country in my layout Penhallick Junction I made a collage of pictures taken from varying distances away from St Dennis to form my backscene.

I have an advantage.....I don't live far away so it wasn't difficult for me but the best bit was that at exhibitions the locals recognised the area even pointing out specific features even though they were confused by some being mirror image when I'd flipped them to form a join.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that your proposed backscene doesn't shout to me CLAY COUNTRY.......it looks fine although I think it still needs to be higher to be more dominant but as it stands is too distant without something in front to give it depth....

Hopefully this makes sense & I'm not being negative but it's how I look at your excellent layout.

 

I'm really enjoying following your progress & keep up the good work.....

 

Cheers Bill

 

 

Interesting comments Bill. Today’s efforts are a starting point. Remembering that my layout is inspired by, not a scale representation, of Burngullow  I certainly intend to use collage for some of the features.
 

That brings the challenge of where/how to find/create decent images/photos of the clay tips of 60 years ago bearing in mind most - all? - of them are naturally or otherwise turning green. If you happen  know of any I’d be pleased to know - images or the real thing.

 

One thing is for certain and that is this won’t be a quick job!  Perhaps next year’s summer holiday will include a tour of clay spoil tips -  poor Carol! 
 

 

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

That brings the challenge of where/how to find/create decent images/photos of the clay tips of 60 years ago

Quite a few in the Cornwall Railway Society galleries - mostly black-and-white though.

[TrevorP1]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Quite a few in the Cornwall Railway Society galleries - mostly black-and-white though.

I should have said colour John. My excuse is that it was getting late and I was looking at RMweb and watching the F1 at the same time!

[TrevorP1]

Another day and some good progress. Thank you to those who commented - it was all worthwhile but yesterday's conundrum has been solved for me.

 

Due to previous carelessness/mismeasurement/stupidity/laziness - delete as appropriate - I had to take a little off of the bottom of the backscene. As a result of which they sit about 1" lower. At least I now know what I have to work with and, over time, I can fill in collage components as appropriate.

 

These will include areas near the bridges to try to disguise the fact they but up against the backscene, possibly the Burgullow West chimney and hopefully some Cornish Alps. Watch Hill should also be present but I'll see how things go... Obviously colour photos having a large enough fine size to be played with will be needed. 

 

Below is a photo of the same spot as yesterday which is, I think, the critical area.

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TrevorP1

[treggyman]

22 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

Interesting comments Bill. Today’s efforts are a starting point. Remembering that my layout is inspired by, not a scale representation, of Burngullow  I certainly intend to use collage for some of the features.
 

That brings the challenge of where/how to find/create decent images/photos of the clay tips of 60 years ago bearing in mind most - all? - of them are naturally or otherwise turning green. If you happen  know of any I’d be pleased to know - images or the real thing.

 

One thing is for certain and that is this won’t be a quick job!  Perhaps next year’s summer holiday will include a tour of clay spoil tips -  poor Carol! 
 

 

Hi

I appreciate that your excellent layout is inspired by & not an actual model of the location I would emphasise that my personal feeling was it didn't quite look right for the area but looks very good as a backscene.....

When modelling Penhallick Junction I took initial inspiration from pictures taken from the window of an HST passing at speed......

I did a 'site' visit but couldn't find a good site to get a panoramic view that suite me.

I did a 'survey' of Parkandillack/Treviscoe/StDennis as well which also gave me inspiration.....

The problem is with these sites is that they are either closed/mothballed or on reduced production.......

As for colour pictures I don't know of a source as most although probably taken in colour have been printed in black & white.

However it might be possible if you can get some good pictures when you're down they could be manipulated to get the impression you're after.

The problem also is I'm modelling what I saw.....I wasn't here in your era so I am only basing my impression of what I've seen in the last 20 years........

If you would like the pics I took PM me & I can put them on a memory stick & send to you.....

 

Cheers Bill

 

[Neal Ball]

Trevor,

To be honest, it looks right and if you hadn’t said you had a conundrum, I wouldn’t have known.

 

However of course, it might be better up an inch…. But it depends on how much you want to play with it…. It looks ok to me….

 

I took the easy option when doing the back scene for Henley and just painted it blue!

[TrevorP1]

20 minutes ago, treggyman said:

Hi

I appreciate that your excellent layout is inspired by & not an actual model of the location I would emphasise that my personal feeling was it didn't quite look right for the area but looks very good as a backscene.....

When modelling Penhallick Junction I took initial inspiration from pictures taken from the window of an HST passing at speed......

I did a 'site' visit but couldn't find a good site to get a panoramic view that suite me.

I did a 'survey' of Parkandillack/Treviscoe/StDennis as well which also gave me inspiration.....

The problem is with these sites is that they are either closed/mothballed or on reduced production.......

As for colour pictures I don't know of a source as most although probably taken in colour have been printed in black & white.

However it might be possible if you can get some good pictures when you're down they could be manipulated to get the impression you're after.

The problem also is I'm modelling what I saw.....I wasn't here in your era so I am only basing my impression of what I've seen in the last 20 years........

If you would like the pics I took PM me & I can put them on a memory stick & send to you.....

 

Cheers Bill

 

Thanks for your kind offer Bill, I’ll bear it in mind. At least you saw what you are modelling. I know the real Burngullow now, but although I did see the place in my era - at least the end of it - I was about 6 years of age and on a passing train. I can remember though that everything was white as that’s what caught my eye! Not that I realised it was a place called Burngullow of course!

 

For now I’ve decided to leave things as they are. Probably I’ll do the area near the bridges first because that is vital. Once that’s done I’ll see how things might be added to.

[St Enodoc]

I did look through my colour slides of Cornish holidays in the 60s but no St Austell Alps I'm afraid. When I get a chance I'll see if there are any in my Dad's collection.

[TrevorP1]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I did look through my colour slides of Cornish holidays in the 60s but no St Austell Alps I'm afraid. When I get a chance I'll see if there are any in my Dad's collection.

 

Thank you John. Apart from one small section, the backscene is now fixed in position. I'm just about 'backscened out' so I'll leave it for now and pick it up again when I've had a chance to take it all in, so to speak.

 

I spotted this on the print - I wonder if it's a Cornish Alp? 

 

[Iron Horse]

Your layout here is amazing and I've been lurking around ever since I noticed your shed which inspired me to get mine.

 

My modelling is really just playing at it compared to where you are but I do feel your pain with regards to a backscene. I've watch Andy paint one on Bute Road.......well I'll never be able to do that, my first attempt with ID backscenes was creased to hell and that's before we get into whether the actual scene looks anything like the West Country

[TrevorP1]

32 minutes ago, Iron Horse said:

Your layout here is amazing and I've been lurking around ever since I noticed your shed which inspired me to get mine.

 

My modelling is really just playing at it compared to where you are but I do feel your pain with regards to a backscene. I've watch Andy paint one on Bute Road.......well I'll never be able to do that, my first attempt with ID backscenes was creased to hell and that's before we get into whether the actual scene looks anything like the West Country

 

Thank you. Hand painted backscenes? Me neither - even the most basic!!! I had an uncle who was a pretty good artist and a pal who is good enough to sell paintings but it may as well be witchcraft as far as I'm concerned. I can see what looks right but how to do it.... 

 

As for the iD backscenes we had a bit of a practice on a piece that wasn't needed and then took the plunge. The first one we did was for a place that wouldn't easily be seen close-up and where there would be a lot of 'distractions'. This was lucky as it was pretty (very) poor! Learning from our mistakes the rest went reasonably well, but you have to guard against being overconfident. (A bit like driving on the Continent for the first time. On day one you are on maximum concentration. Then on day two you relax - danger time!).

 

Tips?

• Do the job when you are calm and relaxed.
• If you get a crease. Stop and think why, then deal with it even if it means making cuts in the material with a new craft knife because it will only get worse. Bubbles are OK because they can be 'popped' later.
• Don't worry about what has happened. You can't change it. Be mindful of it but always look and think ahead.
• Have your backscene boards oversize so they can be trimmed later. I used 3mm Foamex from Simply Plastics (no connection).
• Find a keen helper if you can, two would be even better for a spare pair of hands. Carol is much better at things like this than I and I dread to think of the expensive mess I would have made on my own.
• Lastly, grow two more sets of arms.. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stoker]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:49, TrevorP1 said:

 

I'm pretty sure it was you who suggested using pieces of sponge, it was the first time I tried that and I must say I'm really pleased with the way it's turned out. I've used the method in other odd places. As the mood takes me I do small jobs on the KMRC cottages (or Trerice Terrace as I call them) to make them less 'out of the box'. Recently I repainted their extension roofs and weathered them in the same way. It's quite subtle but very effective.

 

The job on the clay company terrace I'm not looking forward to is weathering the roof. Eventually I'm also going to have a lot of roof to weather on the clay dry. I will be making up some test pieces to try various methods, no way will I risk messing it up!

One way you could make your life quite a bit easier for yourself with the clay dry roof is to go for corrugated asbestos and just repeat the sponge method with the same colours as the cement render on the terrace. I have an extremely effective method for constructing this type of roof using rows of approx 6'6" scale height corrugated styrene sheet laid on thin styrene strip battens to prop up their lowermost edge, simulating horizontal overlap. If you wish to really go all-out on it, you can also simulate the individual sheet vertical laps by cutting each sheet such that one side finishes on a ridge while the other finishes on a valley, the end result being a visible lap when butted against each other. This is a somewhat time consuming process especially on a large roof, but if you take your time and keep everything square, the end result is really something else and will rival Wills Scenic injection molded sheets. The other nice thing about it is that because it is best done using thicker styrene sheet as a substrate, the whole thing can be designed to lift off in one solid piece to provide interior access.

Here's an example of how it looks with just the horizontal laps. This is a US grain elevator/feed mill structure that I'd been working on a few years ago where I first tested the method. Alongside this I also did a test sheet for the vertical laps that came out quite well, but I ended up not using it on this structure as I felt it was actually a tad oversize for HO and especially for how nearly-invisible the vertical laps are on corrugated steel. Corrugated asbestos has more thickness to it which makes the laps a bit more pronounced, although to be honest I think you could use either method on your clay dry and still end up with a very impressive structure.

[TrevorP1]

On 24/11/2021 at 15:22, Stoker said:

One way you could make your life quite a bit easier for yourself with the clay dry roof is to go for corrugated asbestos and just repeat the sponge method with the same colours as the cement render on the terrace. I have an extremely effective method for constructing this type of roof using rows of approx 6'6" scale height corrugated styrene sheet laid on thin styrene strip battens to prop up their lowermost edge, simulating horizontal overlap. If you wish to really go all-out on it, you can also simulate the individual sheet vertical laps by cutting each sheet such that one side finishes on a ridge while the other finishes on a valley, the end result being a visible lap when butted against each other. This is a somewhat time consuming process especially on a large roof, but if you take your time and keep everything square, the end result is really something else and will rival Wills Scenic injection molded sheets. The other nice thing about it is that because it is best done using thicker styrene sheet as a substrate, the whole thing can be designed to lift off in one solid piece to provide interior access.

Here's an example of how it looks with just the horizontal laps. This is a US grain elevator/feed mill structure that I'd been working on a few years ago where I first tested the method. Alongside this I also did a test sheet for the vertical laps that came out quite well, but I ended up not using it on this structure as I felt it was actually a tad oversize for HO and especially for how nearly-invisible the vertical laps are on corrugated steel. Corrugated asbestos has more thickness to it which makes the laps a bit more pronounced, although to be honest I think you could use either method on your clay dry and still end up with a very impressive structure.

 

On 24/11/2021 at 15:22, Stoker said:

 

Thanks for the tip on that. I've just looked and Evergreen do a product like that. The roof has been on my mind for a while but now I've got no excuse. Mind you, two Comet coach kits arrived this week plus a set of sides for another!

 

When I was last there I took a snap of the roof at Wheal Martyn. I'm glad I did because I'd have made the clerestory supports far more elaborate than they need be! Looking at all that moss I'm thinking  would there have been that much 60 years ago?  Presumably not...

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TrevorP1

[Stoker]

Evergreen won't work for that method and I actually don't rate the stuff at all. It's horrendously expensive, comes in tiny sheets of only one per pack, the sheets themselves are way too thick, and the actual corrugation is mediocre to say the least... more like grooves than corrugations. In my opinion you'd be best off with either Slaters, Plastruct, or JTT models. The grain elevator slash feed mill in that photo was done using the JTT models product, and my only complaint with them is that their sizing is wrong - the HO scale product is actually closer to O scale, believe it or not what you see in the photo there is what they label "n scale"! But the nice thing is you get several to a pack so it's actually quite affordable. It's been an absolute aeon since I've used either Slaters or Plastruct, but I seem to recall their corrugated sheets are also sold in packs of multiple sheets, and I remember being quite pleased with them as well.

As for moss, yeah in the 50's there would've been little to none. I've attached a photo of Anchor Clay Company's Mellangoose dry that was taken in the 50s to give you some idea. This was a coal fired dry at this time, very similar to the one you've built on your layout. Little known fact, Anchor were a subsidiary of APCM, the same outfit responsible for Blue Circle Cement, and had entered the clay industry to secure a supply of clay as an additive for a product called Snowcrete, which they still make today. By 1964 they'd built a little oil fired rotary dryer here with an output of about 5 tons per hour, and this ended up being the last source of traffic from the Retew branch in 1981.

Also quick edit to add that the clerestory on the linhay is indeed usually quite simple. For reference I've added a cross section of Burngullow West that I drew from field measurements, which shows how the clerestory is timbered off the main rafters. In terms of what would be ideally visible on the model at normal viewing distances, just as with the real thing you'd really only be able to see the ends of the clerestory rafters. That would be pretty simple to replicate with some styrene strip.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Stoker

[TrevorP1]

Thanks for the tips about the corrugated sheet. I've just done a quick internet search and the Slaters product seems the easiest to get hold of, the JJT N scale version is currently out of stock but that may well change by the time I come to do the roof. I don't want to rush into the roof because I can see it being very prominent even though the layout is set quite high. So much to do and think about but then that's part of the idea.

 

I took a number of photos of the chimney at Wheal Martyn because I've wondered about using this as a 2D item on the backscene behind the main building... We'll see...

 

It will be interesting to see how much of Burngullow West is visible when we're down there at Christmas. The chimney is quite prominent from certain angles and a photo of it (or even the roof if it's visible) may be useful for the backscene - replacing and winter vegetation with summer of course.

 

As I said, so much to think about!  

 

[Stoker]

Winter is actually the best time to go to Burngullow West or indeed any abandoned clay works in my experience, due to the seasonal foliage reduction! It's probably a bit more overgrown since I was last there just over 6 years ago, but you should still be able to see quite a lot. If you drive down to the terrace by the bridge you'll find there's ample room to park, and from there you could theoretically just walk straight onto the site, not that any law abiding man would do that. There's also a small lane that runs behind the settling tanks, and if you go down that you'll come across a gate which provides access to the Frank Parkyn dry that has the square chimney... not that you'd hop such a gate, good heavens! It's a lovely gate and I highly recommend that you stop and admire the gate.

But if you were to hop such a gate, just as a for instance and in theory, I'd think you'd be smart to bring a clipboard with pen and paper, trundle wheel (if you're interested in taking some longer measurements), tape measure, high viz vest, and hard hat. All very cheaply acquired, excellent "credibility props", and it gives you the tools to measure things out. Anyone who sees you will simply assume you're some kind of surveyor or consultant and leave you well alone. But who would do such a thing? Because of course, trespassing is a civil offence and I'm not suggesting, encouraging, or advocating that you or anyone do such things, you naughty man.

So as you can see I am clearly being sarcastic about all of that. I'm sure you'll be able to see plenty from the public road, and won't find reason to be tempted to inspect further. 

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, Stoker said:

 There's also a small lane that runs behind the settling tanks, and if you go down that you'll come across a gate which provides access to the Frank Parkyn dry that has the square chimney... not that you'd hop such a gate, good heavens! It's a lovely gate and I highly recommend that you stop and admire the gate.
 

 

About 18 months ago my long lost twin brother did that... He told me that it was so overgrown a machete would have been more useful than a camera. 

 

This same long lost twin brother also found a pile of china clay at the old bagging plant(?) across the road and gave some to me for use on the layout.

[Bulwell Hall]

Was your twin brother lost for a long time because he was in the small lane without a machete?

[Stoker]

Blimey I wish I had a long lost brother who'd kindly just appear to me from out of the bushes, bag of authentic Burngullow clay in hand.

Jokes aside though, yes there genuinely are piles of 1960s era clay still sat in the dry! The bagging house next to it also still has a couple of 2 CWT hessian sacks full of clay that never got loaded onto a van, and the smaller dry next to the Frank Parkyn dry still has clay on the pan that never got shovelled into the linhay. Quite remarkable, just left how it was for the last 50+ years.

[TrevorP1]

This was almost 18 months ago. The vegetation is such that the buildings are almost invisible, it must be even thicker now.

 

 

Thinking about the bags of clay. I guess if the folks working in the dry were losing their jobs, they'd hardly be bothered about leaving material there. Makes you think, Cornwall has such an industrial heritage and Cornishmen advanced a lot of technology in their day, now...

 

No, I'm not going there. I'll stop now! 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TrevorP1

[Rhysb]

I have to say the slaters sheets are excellent and highly recommend them!

 

Quite an old photo as redone the side walls but the roof is the same. Easy to cut, glues well and easily painted. 

 

Rhys

[TrevorP1]

Having got the backscenes up my general plan is to go back to scenery type work in the spring. In the meantime a couple of coach kits and a set of sides arrived from Wizard. My thoughts were to tackle them after Christmas so that they wiould be ready for spraying in the spring. Yeah right... I should have given them to Carol to lock away somewhere... 

 

 

The K40 on the right was a Hornby B Set vehicle and apart from my foolish fitting of the wrong type of corridor connections it awaits cleaning and painting. The K42 was having its first trundle round to check couplings and clearances. It had just enough to make it runnable and even the buffers are held on with Blu-Tack.

 

These two will go into the 8:45 SO  Plymouth parcels, the formation of which will be based on a 1957 CWP courtesy of Robert Carrol. When I started the whole project I was aiming for 1960 but this got a bit restrictive so these days my 'sequence' is based on 20 or so trains but with each train from a year within the rough period early 1950s - 1963ish. For example the 8:45 is the formation from 1957 and my Cornish Riviera is from 1963. Of necessity most trains are reduced in length but the 8:45 can run with the full formation. Which is (was):

 

K42, non Gangway 2nd, Van, Siphon G, Vanfit, K40, 'Brake Van' (BG).

 

The CWP does not actually specify K40 etc but it does gives the vehicle number if it was a regularly used vehicle. Otherwise it just states brake van - BG in official BR parlance. Quite what the solitary non gangway second was for I have no idea - apparently began it's journey in Cardiff...

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TrevorP1

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

K42, non Gangway 2nd, Van, Siphon G, Vanfit, K40, 'Brake Van' (BG)...

 

...Quite what the solitary non gangway second was for I have no idea - apparently began it's journey in Cardiff...

That's the coach that works up on the 1220 Penzance to Plymouth milk (two-day diagram 544/544A). I haven't been able to work out the reason either. My first guess was maintenance at Plymouth but the Cardiff leg doesn't make sense in that context.

 

Anybody know more?