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Hornby R4851 Swallow Livery MK3 'TRFB'


DaveClass47
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Hi folks,

 

I see that the latest release of the Hornby MK3 Buffet car has appeared in the shops.  

 

It has a full yellow banding along its length, ie no red band above the buffet part of the coach.   I know the era for this particular release is a later one, ie 1990's (the power cars have the new over head warning flashes and the coaches the orange door locking lights).   But did HST MK3 ever run with a full length yellow banding along the top of the coach/roof?

 

I also see Hornby have released it with a plain roof.   no roof vent detailing.   When will they learn?.....they managed to give us the ECML Virgin coach with correct roof detailing, so why not this? sigh!

 

Anyway, any help on the yellow band would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

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The livery doesn't sound familiar to me, other combinations of red only, yellow only over the seating area I'd definitely seen.

 

But Dapol seem to have produced the same full length yellow on an hst buffet numbered as 40422 ... it'd be a bit odd for 2 manufacturers to fabricate a livery.

 

Having said that .. That's shocking about the roof vents!! Just sounds like contempt for modern modellers that they're not interested in even attempting to get the model right. They'd never do that with kettleistas products

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I watched a video on Your Tube the other day of HST's along Dawlish ans Teignmouth and 2 of them seemed to have a full yellow stripe on the TRFB. I think it was only the Western region sets that did this but I could be wrong. 

 

Theres a clip in this at 1.10min 

Edited by Tiddles47
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I watched a video on Your Tube the other day of HST's along Dawlish ans Teignmouth and 2 of them seemed to have a full yellow stripe on the TRFB. I think it was only the Western region sets that did this but I could be wrong. 

 

Theres a clip in this at 1.10min 

I found an image on flickr with a full yellow band.  But this must have been rare.... a more sensible approach would have been to make it half yellow and half grey.  Or better still yellow and red!   But I bet no one can find a MK3 buffet coach with no roof vent detail! ;-(

 

Dave

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I also see Hornby have released it with a plain roof.   no roof vent detailing.   When will they learn?.....they managed to give us the ECML Virgin coach with correct roof detailing, so why not this? sigh!

Maybe the 'corrected' Virgin East Coast one came from a different factory?

 

Noticed from several retailers pictures that this one also reverts to the 'external' handrails in the buffet/corridor area.

 

Luckily this and the 'tinny' TTS power cars weren't on my list.

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I found an image on flickr with a full yellow band.  But this must have been rare.... a more sensible approach would have been to make it half yellow and half grey.  Or better still yellow and red!   But I bet no one can find a MK3 buffet coach with no roof vent detail! ;-(

 

Dave

Interesting. I never knew of this livery version with the full yellow stripe.

 

But have to agree, hardly seems a good choice by Hornby.

 

Also, I see it is lettered as Coach D. Seems a little low alphabetically for a buffet and I thought usually a standard class vehicle.

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Interesting. I never knew of this livery version with the full yellow stripe.

 

But have to agree, hardly seems a good choice by Hornby.

 

Also, I see it is lettered as Coach D. Seems a little low alphabetically for a buffet and I thought usually a standard class vehicle.

It’s been a stupid choice!, compounded by the wrong roof detail and the coach D lettering!

 

Also why bother labeling the coaches when you’re only releasing one of each sort?, or I’ll have 4 ‘coach b’ TSO coaches in my rake and two identical first classes! Just leave the letters off and it would be better. Coach D has never been a buffet. At either, coaches B-E are TSO’s

 

Wish Hornby would get a Get a grip of these details! Wrong roof, wrong coach lettering and bizarre full yellow band! I’ve emailed to complain.

Edited by DaveClass47
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Has anyone seen the TGS yet (R4852), in the flesh or retailer images?

 

Just noticed that the mock up on the Hornby site has the toilet window white/black inverted compared to normal/remainder of the releases.

 

Once upon a time I'd have suggested that the mock up was just that, with small livery issues corrected prior to release. Experience has taught me that rarely now happens with Hornby (Exec TRUB lettered as 'InterCity 125' instead of 'Restaurant-Buffet 125' anyone?).

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Digging in my old Platform 5 books I've found the set which 40711 was formed in, back in 1988. It was in NL22 which was the set booked to form the Yorkshire Pullman.

 

44063, 42199, 42198, 40711, 41100, 40501, 41041, 41099 

    A          B          C        D          E         F          G          H

As a Pullman set it perhaps isn't the ideal choice to model, but then Hornby do like their Pullmans. And, although I have nothing to back this up, as a Pullman I could believe that 40711 didn't carry what we consider to be the standard livery with regard to the yellow stripe.

 

The plain roof though, yes, that's wrong.

 

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Digging in my old Platform 5 books I've found the set which 40711 was formed in, back in 1988. It was in NL22 which was the set booked to form the Yorkshire Pullman.

 

44063, 42199, 42198, 40711, 41100, 40501, 41041, 41099 

    A          B          C        D          E         F          G          H

As a Pullman set it perhaps isn't the ideal choice to model, but then Hornby do like their Pullmans. And, although I have nothing to back this up, as a Pullman I could believe that 40711 didn't carry what we consider to be the standard livery with regard to the yellow stripe.

 

The plain roof though, yes, that's wrong.

 

 

 

Nice information. Thanks HillsideDepot.

 

What is it with Hornby's love for the obscure rather than the mundane though. Do they think this offers a USP over previous releases and will entice people to purchase?

 

40501 was a TRUK (probably a TRFK by then) which Hornby don't make (I'm not counting the RFM they mashed up from the Lima TRUB) so we still can't model the full rake even if they have deliberately targetted a Pullman rake. I don't give them that much credit though I'm afraid and think they've employed the 'modern image' scatter gun again.

 

I was hoping to upgrade my earlier Swallow rake (those released a few years ago numbered as loco hauled) so at least the tinted windows matched my Exec and B/G rakes, but I don't think I'll bother. I'll have a go with some car window tint film instead (and perhaps finally get around to renumbering them!).

 

Sorry Hornby, another sale lost.

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It’s been a stupid choice!, compounded by the wrong roof detail and the coach D lettering!

 

Also why bother labeling the coaches when you’re only releasing one of each sort?, or I’ll have 4 ‘coach b’ TSO coaches in my rake and two identical first classes! Just leave the letters off and it would be better. Coach D has never been a buffet. At either, coaches B-E are TSO’s

 

Wish Hornby would get a Get a grip of these details! Wrong roof, wrong coach lettering and bizarre full yellow band! I’ve emailed to complain.

Indeed. If these were Steam age coaches, you can be sure they'd maybe not be perfect but would be a lot more correct. I sometimes think Hornby find modern era stuff a nuisance and they'd much rather be concentrating on the steam era. Their decisions are often strange regarding modern stuff. They'd sell a boat load Red Schenker 60's, but instead plan a grey one with stickers of Mainline/Transrail/Loadhaul(Can't remember which one).

They would have sold a load of Blue 31/4's, but instead went for the DCR livery.

And they would sell a lot of Mk3's if they got them anywhere near correct. Now is the time to capitalise on Oxford's shortcomings and take the bull by the horn. Because the Hornby Mk3 is a decent coach, and with a bit of updating and attention to detail, could be an excellent one.

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Why is the roof plain??? Could Hornby not be bothered coming up with the vent toolings???

 

Those plain shapes must be a nightmare to get right

 

I seem to recall there being talk that the roof tooling for a Ml3 Buffet vehicle had been damaged a couple of years ago and that a regular MK3 FO / SO had to be used instead.

 

As has been noted before, the Hornby Mk3 range is effectively a total bodge job - a mix of warmed over Hornby & Lima tooling with various tweaks over the years.

 

Therefore it is rather unrealistic to assume that anything Hornby chose to release will be error free or much of an improvement on previous releases.

 

Its why there were high hopes when Oxford announced they were going to be doing the Mk3s - at last modellers dreams of a super detailed designed from scratch with lots of tooling variations to allow for all the details over the years was about to come true..... or so we thought.

 

As it turned out however Oxford's efforts were still found wanting - but what they did do is dilute the market for a super detailed Mk3 such that its very unlikely anyone else will take them on.

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I seem to recall there being talk that the roof tooling for a Ml3 Buffet vehicle had been damaged a couple of years ago and that a regular MK3 FO / SO had to be used instead.

 

 

 

That may well be so, BUT how come the R4855 Virgin TRFB has roof vents, yet there's none on the R4851 Swallow or R4592 Exec IC125 livery buffet cars ? 

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Reference from ‘HST – The Second Millennium’

Thanks for that.  I had seen a couple of photos online and a youtube video, but this makes it a lot clearer. 

 

Ok, so they have done a bit of research, but its a bizarre one to choose.   As they only (to my knowledge) ran with HST sets in this yellow band.   Now, Hornby have just released the Class 87 in Swallow livery, which would have hauled the MK3A Interctiy swallow stock.  So with that in mind, Hornby just needed to stick with the red/yellow or grey/yellow band for the buffet car!

 

Also, the coach is letter 'D'.   When was a buffet car in HST sets ever coach D?...i would question if it ever was.   It might have been coach D in a MK3A west coast interctiy rake.   So that leads me to ask, - Are Hornby trying to sell us a MK3A to go with the Class 87, or a MK3 to run with an HST?   If its the HST then thebanding is provento be correct, but the letter incorrect.   If its a coach for the Class 87 to haul, the letter D might be correct, but the yellow banding isnt.   So its wrong in both scenarios.

 

And on top of the the smooth vent free roof....oh dear o dear!

 

I am a massive fan of Hornby.   They get it right with the power cars and the Class 87, then go and drop the ball with giving us innacurate coaches.   I get the feeling that sometimes they just cant be bothered with modern stuff!   I'd bet they wouldnt let a steam era coach be released with glaring errors such as the roof detail?   They really need to wake up!   With Oxford 'proposing' a HST mk3 in the future (although their livery is just awful!) you'd think Hornby would have wanted to cut that threat dead in the water by giving us an accurate and worthy MK3 buffet car.

 

I am awaiting my order from Hattons, I had ordered two, one for the HST, the other for my 87.   But I cancelled one after seeing it.  No doubt it will look 'ok' when the train travels past, but why go to the effort of the HST power cars, coaches, only to screw up the buffet car.   I shake my head! ;-)

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I seem to recall there being talk that the roof tooling for a Ml3 Buffet vehicle had been damaged a couple of years ago and that a regular MK3 FO / SO had to be used instead.

 

As has been noted before, the Hornby Mk3 range is effectively a total bodge job - a mix of warmed over Hornby & Lima tooling with various tweaks over the years.

 

Therefore it is rather unrealistic to assume that anything Hornby chose to release will be error free or much of an improvement on previous releases.

 

Its why there were high hopes when Oxford announced they were going to be doing the Mk3s - at last modellers dreams of a super detailed designed from scratch with lots of tooling variations to allow for all the details over the years was about to come true..... or so we thought.

 

As it turned out however Oxford's efforts were still found wanting - but what they did do is dilute the market for a super detailed Mk3 such that its very unlikely anyone else will take them on.

I got the 'tooling was damaged excuse from Hornby as well a few years ago.  But they still managed to give us the Virgin East Coast buffet and GWR buffet with the roof vents!   So there is a tooling out there.   Its just lazy of Hornby not to use it.

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That may well be so, BUT how come the R4855 Virgin TRFB has roof vents, yet there's none on the R4851 Swallow or R4592 Exec IC125 livery buffet cars ? 

 

 

That will have a different roof, because it's a different tooling. The base Mk3 Hornby has used for this release is the bizarre ex Lima TRSB / RFM hybrid. However on this occasion it has been modelled as an RFM with the number of 10235. 

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Someone has directed me to this topic as I had posted on the New Hornby mark 3 2018 coaches thread instead.

 

It makes me so cross! I'm seriously considering cancelling an 8 coach rake order because this poor buffet car. Honestly, who signs stuff off like this. They need to be dismissed, as does the person who advised Oxford Rail on their livery colours. After this buffet car and Oxford Rail debacle, I might email Dave Jones and inquire as to whether he would consider modelling a proper version of the mark 3 as there seems to be plenty of interest.

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Someone has directed me to this topic as I had posted on the New Hornby mark 3 2018 coaches thread instead.

 

It makes me so cross! I'm seriously considering cancelling an 8 coach rake order because this poor buffet car. Honestly, who signs stuff off like this. They need to be dismissed, as does the person who advised Oxford Rail on their livery colours. After this buffet car and Oxford Rail debacle, I might email Dave Jones and inquire as to whether he would consider modelling a proper version of the mark 3 as there seems to be plenty of interest.

A bit strong . But Hornby seem to have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory . I know there is a picture of the prototype with yellow stripe but at best it’s seems quite a rare beast. I’m puzzled by Hornby. As others have said mainstream variants like a DB red class 60 seem not to be attractive to them and they go off making things like DCR class 56s and strange Mk3s . You do wonder if there is anyone with modern image knowledge when it comes to liveries and rolling stock.

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A bit strong . But Hornby seem to have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory . I know there is a picture of the prototype with yellow stripe but at best it’s seems quite a rare beast. I’m puzzled by Hornby. As others have said mainstream variants like a DB red class 60 seem not to be attractive to them and they go off making things like DCR class 56s and strange Mk3s . You do wonder if there is anyone with modern image knowledge when it comes to liveries and rolling stock.

 

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh but it's just so disappointing, I was really looking forward to receiving my rake after being underwhelmed by the Oxford Rail effort and now I'm to be disappointed again. I'm no expert, but surely the poor old mark 3 coach has been modelled to the lowest standards of any- by a long way. Unfortunately, the mark 3 coach is my favourite coach of them all. I just find it baffling that the poor old mark 3 seems to always end up the poor relation with some no-mark quality control person at Hornby not giving a monkeys.

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Also, the coach is letter 'D'.   When was a buffet car in HST sets ever coach D?...i would question if it ever was.   It might have been coach D in a MK3A west coast interctiy rake.   So that leads me to ask, - Are Hornby trying to sell us a MK3A to go with the Class 87, or a MK3 to run with an HST?   If its the HST then thebanding is provento be correct, but the letter incorrect.   If its a coach for the Class 87 to haul, the letter D might be correct, but the yellow banding isnt.   So its wrong in both scenarios.

As I posted earlier, coach D is a catering car when its in a Pullman rake - one of two in the set

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