Broad strokes for non-scenic areas?

[Lacathedrale]

I've got a decent space for a large operator-in-the-middle layout. Both ends will need to be unscenicked since they will form 180 curves, and one side (for now) needs to be just plain track for staging. My goal is to get a decent length of rural, railway-on-embankment done so I can enjoy running some trains as soon as feasible, instead of constantly stopping-and-starting with building baseboards, learning to hand-lay track, building kits, etc. and never actually getting a layout even partially running.

 

To that end, I'm looking at Peco Code 75 bullhead for the scenic sections, and whatever is cheap and cheerful for the loops. The visible sections will be 17' long (with a 5' well in the middle) and the reverse loops  need to circumnavigate the ends of the area (more than enough space -around 6' x 7' each)

 

All the visible sections will be in 4' x 1' x 1' modules so I can move and remove them, but the loops I'm happy to build in-situ with whatever is most expedient (bearing in mind it's in my loft space and so a bit of a pig to bring up big bits of lumber, etc. - though it is finished i.e. insulated, carpeted and has some small windows with double-glazing)

 

I do have other spaces (an 8' x 8' garden office, and two walls of a garage (approx 15' x 20' with a 70 degree bend in the middle) but neither of them provide the capacity (it seems) for continuous running in anything but 2mm (which I've tried and failed at).

 

I'm not sold on 4mm or 7mm completely yet, 7mm seems like it could be fun but I would need at least one curve of <3'6" radius which I think would be a big problem.

 

I literally haven't got the first idea where to start - any ideas?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Harlequin]

Hi Bill,

 

If you want to get something up and running I think you're right to go OO 4mm. You can use RTR and RTP for a first approximation and then refine from there if you want to.

 

You've described most of the layout already! So it's just down to what scenic elements you imagine in the scenic section.

 

 

If you had a small through-station taking up about half the length, the rest could be plain double track running on an embankment. That would give at least some of the traffic a destination.

 

And you could perhaps get decent scenic depth by bolting together 8 4ft by 1ft modules in the scenic area (reducing your well to 4ft in the middle). Er, so:

 

 

A B C D

E F G H

 

A = through station

B = through station

C = embankment

D = embankment

E = station sidings

F = station sidings

G = pure scenery

F = pure scenery

[devondynosoar118]

I would avoid cheap track too, in my experience it causes more trouble than the money saving was worth. I would rather build sections more slowly using better components, either new or good second hand, than fast and using bargain basement track.

You will get much more reliable running that way, which is more time spent playing trains, less time cursing poor track, which to me is the aim of the game, running trains!

None of the areas need to be scenic to begin with, as long as the track has a decent base and is well laid you can come back to scenery at any time, that way you focus spending on getting moving models, with one skill set at a time to (re)learn as opposed to trying to do all of it at the same time.

[Lacathedrale]

What do you think about the specific construction methods for these return loops? I think I can just about manage building self-contained modules, but a big wide curve suspended in the air makes me a bit nervous

 

I'm definitely thinking of an iterative process. I am working under the assumption that I will get the bones and bare track down in a module-style for a complete loop fairly quickly, and then replace each block with scenic sections through the course of time.

What I'm really interested in however, is a way to smash out those plain sections in such a way they don't represent operational limitations due to quality (as Devon Dynosaur has said) and I don't spend multiple years building them before I actually get to run something.

 

I feel like a spline roadbed for the curves on the ends  would be the quickest, but I have no practical idea about how I'd do it! HA!

[Harlequin]

Obviously you need to support the end curves properly. Either make curved (or polygonal) baseboards that have inherent stiffness or make rectangular frames fixed to the walls and place curved boards on top.

Here's what I've been doing recently:

I designed one basic module and made three identical copies of it (erm, they could have been identical...) with different trackbed boards on each one. You can see how the end curves are just arcs of ply but the open frame supports them about every 200mm.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Harlequin

[Lacathedrale]

That looks lovely - I assumed the roadbed would be a few inches above the open frame but I guess on the arcs it doesn't matter!

 

I'd really like to get some vertical space on the layout so I'm wary of creating biscuit-tin baseboards (as is my usual MO), that said ( and as we discussed on the Caterham thread) the geometry of my loft hatch being such as it is does preclude big cross-sectional pieces. It may be that I build the module, sub roadbed, roadbed and track to be made removable and recoverable in case of a change of heart, and commit the scenic extremities to the bin in that case.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

Or maybe just build the lot in the loft in a more direct affair, and acknowledge that scenics/flextrack is probably the least investment in the hobby, I guess!

[Harlequin]

That looks lovely - I assumed the roadbed would be a few inches above the open frame but I guess on the arcs it doesn't matter!

 

I'd really like to get some vertical space on the layout so I'm wary of creating biscuit-tin baseboards (as is my usual MO), that said ( and as we discussed on the Caterham thread) the geometry of my loft hatch being such as it is does preclude big cross-sectional pieces. It may be that I build the module, sub roadbed, roadbed and track to be made removable and recoverable in case of a change of heart, and commit the scenic extremities to the bin in that case.

 

 

Or maybe just build the lot in the loft in a more direct affair, and acknowledge that scenics/flextrack is probably the least investment in the hobby, I guess!

 

The idea is that to elevate the trackbed (e.g. for an embankment) you could fix risers to the ribs of the basic open-frame modules and fix the trackbed to the risers. I didn't need to do that yet so just fixed the trackbed directly to the frames. As you say, you only need to do that on the scenic boards anyway.

 

I think that technique would work for you, even with the restriction of your loft hatch, and if the purely scenic stuff isn't a huge area perhaps you may as well make them modular too so that you can set up the whole scene somewhere else if you ever want to. (Technically, joints shouldn't be a problem but disguising them scenically can be tricky.)

 

The decision of building it permanent or removable partly depends on whether your loft is easy to access and always a pleasant place to be, or whether it takes an effort to get to and can sometimes be uncomfortable. Another factor that favours movable modules is that it's much easier to do the electrical work underneath if you can stand them on their sides...

[Lacathedrale]

So what about making slightly larger modules (say, 18" wide x 5' long x 8-9" tall - to account for risers, etc.) which contain any and all trackwork and form a core around which lightweight scenic sections/modules/extensions are added? Given that the 180' arcs will only ever function in the loft they could be considered part of this addition. That way, I can build the boards in my garage and iron out the operational/electrical issues taking advantage of their modular nature. If the time comes to move house or change/disassemble the layout then I can carve away the surrounds to get back to the core.

 

I think that principle would work for any layout formation that could end up there too - a more tightly defined and better engineered skeleton that is designed to be robust, modular and removable - and the niceties added in-situ which can project out into the operator well or up against the back walls (which would otherwise be impossible to get into the loft)

 

What do you think?

[Harlequin]

Semi-permanent installation is a clever idea and I think I've seen other people on RMWeb use the technique but it's not as flexible as fully removable boards. Once some of the scenic work was done you couldn't just take a board downstairs to work on it or flip it up to fix a point motor, for example. And you might come to regret it if you have to destroy some scenic area that you've spent hours on...? I don't know - maybe it's a sensible compromise.

 

Just to be clear we're still talking about fixed curves at the ends, fixed fiddle yard along one long side and whether the scenic area, opposite the fiddle yard, is fixed, removable or some combination thereof, right?

 

What do other people think? I'm sure Bill doesn't want to hear only from me and someone out there must have faced similar issues.

[Lacathedrale]

Yes that's broadly what I'm thinking, but, I've realised there's a timber cutting service in my local area, so I'm going to bash together some boards just to see how they handle - 16" x 5'.

 

I think you're right that fully removable makes the most sense and I think that 16" is probably about the minimum I'd want to go in 4mm or 7mm. Starting a separate thread for the notional design of the first couple of modules!

 

Cheers,

[Brassey]

To build embankments you ideally need to use an open-frame baseboard technique.  There are plenty of examples on RMW

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks Brassey, you're totally right. How hard can it be!

[Brassey]

Thanks Brassey, you're totally right. How hard can it be!

There are many good examples of excellent baseboard work on Gordon S's Eastwood Town thread most of which I have copied!

 

For example:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-where-did-10-years-go/page-110&do=findComment&comment=2225561

[Lacathedrale]

Re-measuring the loft hatch, I can fit boards with an 18" x 16" cross-section through without much trouble. It looks like anything up to 6' long is feasible. I think in an ideal world having the whole lot (minus the arcs) as removable boards would be excellent - but that relatively limited cross section and bearing in mind they'll have to be shoved by me head first up into the loft, dodging an exposed noggin - maybe removable track panels, rather than baseboards, is the way to go?

 

Three 6' x 18" scenic modules on one side, three slightly narrower 6' modules on the other, and two unscenicked 180' curves. I could potentially situate 'branch' objects (aforementioned loco shed, goods yard, etc.) on the inside of those curves I guess? 

[Pacific231G]

I've got a decent space for a large operator-in-the-middle layout. Both ends will need to be unscenicked since they will form 180 curves, and one side (for now) needs to be just plain track for staging. My goal is to get a decent length of rural, railway-on-embankment done so I can enjoy running some trains as soon as feasible, instead of constantly stopping-and-starting with building baseboards, learning to hand-lay track, building kits, etc. and never actually getting a layout even partially running.

 

To that end, I'm looking at Peco Code 75 bullhead for the scenic sections, and whatever is cheap and cheerful for the loops. The visible sections will be 17' long (with a 5' well in the middle) and the reverse loops  need to circumnavigate the ends of the area (more than enough space -around 6' x 7' each)

 

All the visible sections will be in 4' x 1' x 1' modules so I can move and remove them, but the loops I'm happy to build in-situ with whatever is most expedient (bearing in mind it's in my loft space and so a bit of a pig to bring up big bits of lumber, etc. - though it is finished i.e. insulated, carpeted and has some small windows with double-glazing)

 

I do have other spaces (an 8' x 8' garden office, and two walls of a garage (approx 15' x 20' with a 70 degree bend in the middle) but neither of them provide the capacity (it seems) for continuous running in anything but 2mm (which I've tried and failed at).

 

I'm not sold on 4mm or 7mm completely yet, 7mm seems like it could be fun but I would need at least one curve of <3'6" radius which I think would be a big problem.

 

I literally haven't got the first idea where to start - any ideas?

 If your end curves are to  radius of say 3ft you may not need to hide them completely; viewing trains from the inside of the curve, the opposite situation to exhibtion layouts, makes the curve's sharpness far less obvious and may give you scope for one or two extra self contained scenes .

 

You mention possibly having five or six foot long baseboards. The H0m layout I'm currently working on is on a four foot long board (with a separate fiddle yard) and I find even that awkward to carry up and down stairs to my back bedroom "studio" let alone to move in and out of a loft so I'd certainly be wary of anything longer than that. I may be particularly clumsy (and my stairs are fairly steep and do turn a corner at the top) but from that experience I've now decided to settle on a baseboard length of one metre for any future layouts. I've also found that a four foot long baseboard can be awkward to fit into many cars though that's probably not an issue for a layout that never leaves home.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Lacathedrale]

Well it seems as though Firefox at my reply.

 

I have doodled a composite method - where the framework has an additional, integral scenic section to add width to the layout once it's in-situ. I think it'll be hard enough as you've righly said, without having to factor in bolts and dowels in more than one dimension. In this paradigm the layout can be removed and run in the livingroom/garden on trestles/etc. without  further accoutremont, and potentially exhibited as such (or with separate lightweight backscene/lighting), all the while the width and profile are kept to a minimum. In theory.

 

https://i.imgur.com/PADa9BH.jpg

 

I've got an estate car so a 6' length is no big deal, but maybe the aforementioned prototype will be required before digging too much deeper.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Lacathedrale