Prices, discounts, and sales in OO model railway products

[davidprentice]

Hi all

 

Returning to the hobby as I am after almost a decade away, I'm also starting to spend money on buying locomotives and wagons and coaches and so on.

 

I've been surprised to see how just how much more expensive items are than a decade ago. I seem to recall paying £6 for a Bachmann HEA wagon, that today you'd be lucky to pick up for £15 or perhaps even £20. I've also been struck by how some items seem to be much more heavily discounted than others.

 

Recent examples might include the Bachmann Class 350 4-Car EMUs that I have been able to pick up for sub-£100. It hasn't been clear to me why these have been so heavily discounted, while a comparable Class 450 4-Car EMU ended up costing me north of £200, and generally seems today to be retailing at around £280/£300.

 

Now, for these sub-£100 units (London Midland and an unbranded example) is it that the retailers are trying to get rid of them? Are the retailers even making money on them? And why is demand so low? Presumably either they are simply not very popular due to livery/or similar, or given the extent of the discount perhaps there is something 'known to be wrong' with them, but that isn't publicised? Are the retailers selling them for £89.95 even making any money? Are they doing the discounting, or is Bachmann doing the discount?

 

Another example might be the Hornby FGW Class 08 that can be picked up for around £80 but retails for as much as £140. Given the less extreme discounting for this, compared to the Class 350 units, I'm assuming this might just be a case of demand being over-estimated by Hornby?

 

I guess, I'm just keen to understand a bit more about the dynamics that see such heavy discounting - and to also just understand a bit more about how it works for retailers. Do retailers pay a certain percentage of RRP to secure stock for their store, but only pay any outstanding balance up to the wholesale cost on successful sale, or do retailers have to pay a spefiic wholesale cost to secure stock, but the manufacturers 'refund' them where they discount below the wholesale cost, as seemingly would be the case for the Class 350s?

 

I'm keen to understand a bit more about the market dynamics as I do genuinely want to be able to best support the market. I will generally look for the best price when buying my items - as I have no local shop to visit in any event - so 99% of my purchases are online/mail order. But, I also do temper it, by sharing my annual spend around 4 or 5 retailers, of varying sizes, in the hope of helping keep the market going.

 

Anyway, any observations on how the retail market currently works for retailers in this space would be most welcome and interesting.

 

Sorry if that was a bit of a jumbled/ramble; but the market feels a little different (and more expensive) than a decade ago!

 

D

 

[Guest teacupteacup]

Welcome back to the hobby!

 

Prices have risen dramatically in the past decade, a combination of rising wages in China and raw material costs, although I sometimes wonder how items such as the HEA hopper you've mentioned can cost so much these days - surely its paid for itself over and over!  

 

The oft quoted "we've never had it so good" is certainly true, but having it so good, costs a lot of money!

 

I find the most heavily discounted items are sometimes slow sellers (eg the Desiro EMU's), this may be down to the manufacturer reading the market wrong, and also to clear space in the stockists.  Im not privvy to the trade price on our models but I would be surprised if retailers where making a loss, they may be selling at rock bottom, zero profit, just to clear their shelves as dead stock is dead money.

 

Over supply can result in slow sales, and thus heavy discounting - until the stock levels get low and the price rises again!  Many people have a go a retailers who do this, but they are there to make money from us!

 

Bargains can be had, if you are patient and willing to look around various shops and a certain auction site

[YesTor]

Recent examples might include the Bachmann Class 350 4-Car EMUs that I have been able to pick up for sub-£100. It hasn't been clear to me why these have been so heavily discounted, while a comparable Class 450 4-Car EMU ended up costing me north of £200, and generally seems today to be retailing at around £280/£300.

 

Now, for these sub-£100 units (London Midland and an unbranded example) is it that the retailers are trying to get rid of them? Are the retailers even making money on them? And why is demand so low? Presumably either they are simply not very popular due to livery/or similar, or given the extent of the discount perhaps there is something 'known to be wrong' with them, but that isn't publicised? Are the retailers selling them for £89.95 even making any money? Are they doing the discounting, or is Bachmann doing the discount?

 

The key factor is cost of production.  In the example you highlight of Bachmann's 350, there is in fact something like a seven year gap between the first and second production runs.  As has been covered elsewhere many, many times and in many ongoing discussions, production costs have risen dramatically during that time - in short, mainly due to rising labour costs in China - whereby now, as you correctly observe, the RRP for a similar product in 2018 is north of £300.  To reiterate, no difference in the product, however 7 years is a long time and in that time production costs have indeed changed. 

 

So, with the Bachmann Class 350/450 units, it turned out that the London Midland 350 appeared to be less popular than anticipated and as a result there was indeed a situation earlier this year where there were two different batches of one virtually identical product simultaneously on retailers' shelves.  However, as explained above both produced seven years apart and hence both with very different costs of production.  So in actual fact, it may well be that although the London Midland units did indeed appear to be a total giveaway in the January sales of 2018, they probably still managed to scrape a profit for the manufacturer, as in fact although by today's retail prices they were indeed perceived as being a bargain, in real terms they were not actually being sold substantially less than the original advertised RRP seven years ago.  I'd imagine that the only additional costs to production during that period would be the cost of storing the items in Bachmann's warehouse, whatever those costs might be. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by YesTor

[The Johnster]

I am the last person to claim to be able to comment authoritatively on matters relating to the market or manufacturing, marketing, and discounting, but the basis of all this is that the Chinese production model which provided us with high quality cheap reliable models for over 20 years has changed radically.  10 years ago Chinese people rode bicycles to work; nowadays they wouldn't be seen dead on one and huge piles of abandoned bikes are to be found at the edge of any large urban area.  

 

They work hard and, not unreasonably, want holidays, HD televisions, cars, smart clothes and nice places to live; seems reasonable enough to me!  But this means that the cost of living there has skyrocketed, as have wages in pursuit of it and material and other overheads that have to be costed and the burden passed to us.  Whether those manufacturers who bought in to the Chinese model and abandoned home production facilities are now regretting it is a matter for conjecture, as none of them have commented on it, but the quality of the Chinese product is still exceptionally good.  And, IMHO, exceptionally good value for money.

 

At this point it is only fair to mention that I model a small BLT and do not have the need to buy large numbers of locos or make up 60 wagon coal trains, so I may be more tolerant of the current price levels than those that do; by and large I don't mind paying what it costs if what it costs is what it costs.

 

But I can see how it's a bit of a culture shock to someone who's been away for a decade.  10 years ago, prices were probably lower than we should have expected as Western markets took advantage of low costs, especially labour, in China.  The market is adjusting, and prices are catching up to what they would have been had manufacture remained in the UK.  But we are still, IMHO, getting a superior product to that which could be built here (apologies to anyone who worked in the British RTR sector when it was up and running, I'm sure you did your best and I am reluctant to criticise). 

[Jeff Smith]

I would definitely take issue with your last sentence. You may be right for a given price but are you implying that workmanship would be inferior? If so I believe you are seriously mistaken.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Welcome back. I would expect that once you have been through a year of restored interest in model railway you will see the retail pattern as relating to much of the Chinese productions. There are exceptions, and these are probably the harbingers of a shift in the market toward limited runs that have to be pre-ordered ahead of release and effectively 'sell out' with no stock to be remaindered on stockist's shelves. There you are in the same boat as the rest of us, learning how this is going to work - or not! -  and how best to deal with it.

... Now, for these sub-£100 units (London Midland and an unbranded example) is it that the retailers are trying to get rid of them? Are the retailers even making money on them? And why is demand so low? Presumably either they are simply not very popular due to livery/or similar, or given the extent of the discount perhaps there is something 'known to be wrong' with them, but that isn't publicised? ...

 I couldn't tell you why demand might be low for that particular model. It could be anything from an unpopular livery, an error that is difficult to correct, a mechanism deficiency, or simple saturation of the market. However information here from other purchasers of the products you are interested in will likely give a clue. Although RMweb very clearly doesn't represent the entire market, it has sufficent participation to quickly identify the strengths and weaknesses of the models as they become available. (It's easy to spot a goodun, from a near absence of any adverse comment.)

 

I would assume that stock that is sitting on shelves and showing no sign of moving is discounted to something close to wholesale price. Whatever calculation the retailer applies is their business, and factors like occupation of space on the premises required to accomodate other product that will sell profitably are unknown to us: I just let them get on with it and if a bargain results, well and good,.

[Sir TophamHatt]

I wonder how much something would cost to manufacturer in the UK compared with "Chinas rising costs".

If a company invested in 3D printers or the moulding machines, they could save tens of thousands over the years.

[Phil Parker]

I wonder how much something would cost to manufacturer in the UK compared with "Chinas rising costs".

If a company invested in 3D printers or the moulding machines, they could save tens of thousands over the years.

 

Loads. Most of the cost of any model is the labour putting on all those little bits and multiple passes through the printing processes. If you watch any of the Rapido videos, you'll get an idea just how much manual work goes into a RTR model. Finger in the air guestimates would suggest £100 extra per loco, maybe more. Chinese wages are still not close to UK ones. There is also the challenge of finding people to do the work - LLC have stuggledwith the 48DS which was to be made in the UK but moved to China when no-one could be found here to make it to the standard required. I understand this might have been fixed with the Class 22, so watch this space. 

 

3D printers are not the right tool for mass production of models. If you want the quality, they are a LOT more expensive than injection moulding maxchines too. I saw an OK N gauge carriage shell at a 3D print show last year - price to do that £100 - and it didn't have interior, bogies or details. That would put a OO coach at £300 because of the extra print time. 

 

Buying moulding machines doesn't solve the problem of labour either as mentioned above. Sure you can have the bits, but what next? 

[MartynJPearson]

Why not lower the cost by not putting the bits on? We're modellers, so have most likely at some stage in our past crossed paths with an Airfix kit or two so are probably quite capable of adding some aspects of the model ourselves. We seem to have two extremes - perfect out of the box, ready to run, or build from a kit requiring umpteen tools, brass and metal work experience, painting experience etc. A bit of middle ground would not be beyond the majority and could reduce costs.

 

In my opinion too, Hornby seem to be missing the mark with the Railroad range. The prices of Railroad locos seem to be now at what the super details locos were just a few years ago and no longer represent a budget route into the hobby. For a hobby that continues to fret about introducing new (younger) blood, the manufacturers seem to be missing the mark that that new blood may well not have the cash reserves required to get into the hobby.

[Jeff Smith]

There have been other threads discussing aspects of levels of finish or RTR models. It is a broad church and as you would expect there are people that can't or won't do anything at all right through to those who would be very happy to finish off a bare bones model. There is considerable fear by some regarding chassis building so a basic but runnable model at say half price may fit the bill.

 

There are some relatively basic resin coach kits out there of coaches not available RTR but even these are rejected by many.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Jeff Smith

[royaloak]

I am the last person to claim to be able to comment authoritatively on matters relating to the market or manufacturing, marketing, and discounting, but the basis of all this is that the Chinese production model which provided us with high quality cheap reliable models for over 20 years has changed radically.  10 years ago Chinese people rode bicycles to work; nowadays they wouldn't be seen dead on one and huge piles of abandoned bikes are to be found at the edge of any large urban area.  

 

They work hard and, not unreasonably, want holidays, HD televisions, cars, smart clothes and nice places to live; seems reasonable enough to me!  But this means that the cost of living there has skyrocketed, as have wages in pursuit of it and material and other overheads that have to be costed and the burden passed to us.  Whether those manufacturers who bought in to the Chinese model and abandoned home production facilities are now regretting it is a matter for conjecture, as none of them have commented on it, but the quality of the Chinese product is still exceptionally good.  And, IMHO, exceptionally good value for money.

 

At this point it is only fair to mention that I model a small BLT and do not have the need to buy large numbers of locos or make up 60 wagon coal trains, so I may be more tolerant of the current price levels than those that do; by and large I don't mind paying what it costs if what it costs is what it costs.

 

But I can see how it's a bit of a culture shock to someone who's been away for a decade.  10 years ago, prices were probably lower than we should have expected as Western markets took advantage of low costs, especially labour, in China.  The market is adjusting, and prices are catching up to what they would have been had manufacture remained in the UK.  But we are still, IMHO, getting a superior product to that which could be built here (apologies to anyone who worked in the British RTR sector when it was up and running, I'm sure you did your best and I am reluctant to criticise). 

You also have to take into account the available labour force, with everyone wanting to move their production to China meaning more factories are springing up, those factories need workers and so we have the situation where there are now more jobs than available workers so factories are now outbidding each other to recruit enough workers, the factories left without staff then increase their wages so they can recruit (just as happened over here with train drivers after privatisation), so the costs of production have to rise to cover the increased wage bill.

 

Its simple supply and demand in the Labour market and somebody has to pay for it.

 

Of course then we get onto the higher specification models requiring more (expensive) assembly etc, it all has to be paid for.

[The Johnster]

I would definitely take issue with your last sentence. You may be right for a given price but are you implying that workmanship would be inferior? If so I believe you are seriously mistaken.

 

Didn't mean to imply that, but the fact remains that Chinese products were better detailed and turned a better profit.  This is not down to workmanship; I cannot believe that Chinese workers are inherently superior or inferior to ours or anyone's in this respect. The key to China's success was in being able to offer a very high quality product at a much lower cost than could be achieved in the UK without major re-investment in moulding tech and production R & D that those manufacturers based here could not afford (in the sense that they couldn't justify it to their shareholders) at the time.

 

The Chinese model is unlike ours. in which one concern oversees the entire process from initial conception to distribution, in house and usually on the same premises.  The Chinese work differently, by sub contracting.  The British company does the product research, but not the production research (how to put it together) and approaches a Chinese agency, which organises the sub contracts, out to various design and production facilities scattered all across that huge country, almost cottage industries, the collection of the components into assembly facilities and the final packing and shipping arrangements, and managing QC at each stage.  

 

This is not the traditional British way of doing things, and when the market conditions made it the most effective and profitable option, the Chinese were able to offer the best deal.  This is simply capitalism, red in tooth and claw; companies do not make models for our benefit but for their shareholders'.  It probably wouldn't have worked in the UK anyway even if costs could have been kept down; this business of co-ordinating production over a large number of geographically remote facilities connected by internet was already a strength that the very culture of Chinese society could play to (they were 'collective orientated' to top down organisation 3.000 years before Communism), and one that we had little experience of  Of course, it was possible for RTR to be made to that quality here in the UK, just not economically viable, and this was not the fault of the abilities or skills of anyone involved; as I said, they did their best, who wouldn't.  It is human nature if you are making something to do the best you can!

 

Hornby were probably the slowest to pick up on this, and they are arguably still suffering the fallout of this and the late realisation that the market was moving away from train set quality.  They still haven't completely rid themselves of this, and are trying their luck with the somewhat confusing and directionless 'Railroad' range of older models to clear the stocks.

[The Johnster]

Why not lower the cost by not putting the bits on? We're modellers, so have most likely at some stage in our past crossed paths with an Airfix kit or two so are probably quite capable of adding some aspects of the model ourselves. We seem to have two extremes - perfect out of the box, ready to run, or build from a kit requiring umpteen tools, brass and metal work experience, painting experience etc. A bit of middle ground would not be beyond the majority and could reduce costs.

 

In my opinion too, Hornby seem to be missing the mark with the Railroad range. The prices of Railroad locos seem to be now at what the super details locos were just a few years ago and no longer represent a budget route into the hobby. For a hobby that continues to fret about introducing new (younger) blood, the manufacturers seem to be missing the mark that that new blood may well not have the cash reserves required to get into the hobby.

I agree about Railroad.

 

I am not sure that low price models are the way to attract 'young blood' into the hobby any more either.  Train sets are not bought by children, they are bought by parents, as are the bits and bobs to go with them.  Younger people do not have the disposable to be involved until their late teens at the earliest unless they come from well to do families and don't have to worry much about costs (trying not to sound resentful here; I'm not, honest, just trying to see it from an RTR marketing pov), and in their late teens they tend to be distracted by other things, coming back to train sets when the inevitable results of the other things are old enough.

 

Time was when Triang and Trix offered models in 'CKD' form, standing for Completely Knocked Down.  The main assemblies were done for you and you had to do the final assembly yourself, no more than half a dozen or so pieces tops fixed to a running chassis.  Trix were a little more complex IIRC; I had a Western which I think required the motor attaching to the power bogie and the feeds screwing on, but no soldering or even glue was required and the screwdriver came in the box. If you could knock an Airfix Spitfire together these were no problem; most of it clipped together.  Triang offered the Princess, Electra, and scale length mk1 coaches in this form, and possibly more, but I cannot now remember what Trix did apart from the Western, which had a lit headcode panel.

 

For a teenager on paper round money which had to finance trips 'oop north' to see steam engines as , they were A Very Good Thing.  The price was about 2 thirds of the RTR version, which would account for the saving in final assembly labour (and presumably QC) costs, less the extra cost of packaging, which was lavish; the things were laid out for presentation like a train set!  But this could probably not be done in the current market; modern models are much more complex and market resistance to kits is considerable,  Pity.

[Fat Controller]

I agree about Railroad.

 

I am not sure that low price models are the way to attract 'young blood' into the hobby any more either.  Train sets are not bought by children, they are bought by parents, as are the bits and bobs to go with them.  Younger people do not have the disposable to be involved until their late teens at the earliest unless they come from well to do families and don't have to worry much about costs (trying not to sound resentful here; I'm not, honest, just trying to see it from an RTR marketing pov), and in their late teens they tend to be distracted by other things, coming back to train sets when the inevitable results of the other things are old enough.

 

Time was when Triang and Trix offered models in 'CKD' form, standing for Completely Knocked Down.  The main assemblies were done for you and you had to do the final assembly yourself, no more than half a dozen or so pieces tops fixed to a running chassis.  Trix were a little more complex IIRC; I had a Western which I think required the motor attaching to the power bogie and the feeds screwing on, but no soldering or even glue was required and the screwdriver came in the box. If you could knock an Airfix Spitfire together these were no problem; most of it clipped together.  Triang offered the Princess, Electra, and scale length mk1 coaches in this form, and possibly more, but I cannot now remember what Trix did apart from the Western, which had a lit headcode panel.

 

For a teenager on paper round money which had to finance trips 'oop north' to see steam engines as , they were A Very Good Thing.  The price was about 2 thirds of the RTR version, which would account for the saving in final assembly labour (and presumably QC) costs, less the extra cost of packaging, which was lavish; the things were laid out for presentation like a train set!  But this could probably not be done in the current market; modern models are much more complex and market resistance to kits is considerable,  Pity.

CKD, and the equivalent from Trix, were all about avoiding Purchase Tax.

[Jeff Smith]

CKD, and the equivalent from Trix, were all about avoiding Purchase Tax.

I think Heathkit was the same. VAT probably killed that principle.

[The Johnster]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that!  But I clearly remember the claim in the Triang catalogue that the assembly saving was passed to the customer as well, and have no reason to doubt that this was a truthful claim.  Full VAT would no doubt have to be charged on a modern equivalent, but the assembly saving is still presumably possible.  I suspect that the reason this is not available is to do with complicated assemblies and market resistance to them; the RTR people know their marketing pretty well in general and would go for it if money was to be made.  

 

If Chinese labour costs continue to rise, they may yet have a rethink though.  But I won't be holding my breath!

[Jeff Smith]

I believe specialized markets are to some degree self levelling. If prices continue to rise, fewer will sell, companies will get scared and try to control price rises by simplifying or withdrawing. Others will surface to try to fill the void, and so on. This is the opposite of, for example, consumer electronics, where demand and efficiency reduces prices. An exception is of course Apple where every new phone is more expensive but still sells.....

[County of Yorkshire]

I do feel that there is a perfect storm coming for RTR prices and in some ways I think we have entered that storm, though we are not yet quite in the eye of it. The annual price increases from the RTR manufacturers do at times feel relentless and this wouldn't be the case if the annual rises were by a factor of 3 or 4%, but they are invariably in and around 10% rises per annum, and this compounds over a longer period - a £80 loco in 2013 seeing 10% rises per annum would now be £129, for example. Price resistance is emerging on here more and more as a trend and I think something will have to give soon. Hornby et al can tinker around the fringes with 6-week discount limits all they like, but I see there being around 5 key factors that are influencing the debate on price, which are: 

 

Supply Side

A) the ongoing rise in Chinese labour costs, and raw materials to a lesser degree

B) the volatility of Sterling and the impact on exchange rates and thus cost of manufacture and shipping to the manufacturers

 

Demand Side

C) Modelers and Collectors collections are saturated, and as the recent thread on here demonstrated, some modelers have upwards of 100 locos. New releases either have to be something never before modeled RTR (Pecketts), or offering substantial value over an existing model (Stanier/Ivatt Duchesses)

D) It is an aging demographic in this hobby and I don't think replacement rates of young entrants will keep up with the rate of modelers leaving us to go up to that engine shed in the sky, which shrinks the market and thus demand for new product. Moreover, modelers of a younger generation are disposable income poor when compared to the baby boomer/grey pound of the early retiree/retiree demographic of the 55 + year olds- thus their annual spending power will be of a fraction of the older generation. 

E) As modelers and collectors pass away, the second hand market become flooded with their stock - you have already seen this to an extent with post-war tinplate stuff - the bottom fell out of the market here and now in many ways you can't give it away

 

It's the second hand market that fascinates me, because why would you pay £97 for a new Bachmann 56xx tank, for example, when there are numerous good second hand examples to be had on ebay for around £40 - £60? I sill don't think that manufactures have fully got their heads around the impact the second hand market has on the British outline RTR models sector. Why would I pay £145 for a new Hornby Castle when good second hand ones can be had from Swapmeets and on Ebay for £70 - £90? I and many others just won't buy new and then they won't sell - what will Hornby do when these are still sat on the warehouse shelf in Sandwich, three and four years after initial release? 

 

I stand by my previous comments that wherever there is a demand for a product within a desired price point, a businesses will always emerge to meet that demand at the right price point. I just think that capitalism will find a way and therefore British outline RTR models will be made in India, Bangladesh or Vietnam - and not China - by 2030, and production quantities will be much, much diminished. We may even see a move to a 'made to order' scenario where a model needs so many minimum orders to start a production run.  

 

CoY

Edited September 24, 2018 by County of Yorkshire

[Free At Last]

I have stopped buying Bachmann rolling stock as their price increases have gone over the top for me.

Looking at my Hattons invoices the Midland 20T Brake Vans were £12.03 in 2014, today they are £24.61, over 100% increase in 4 years.

My last purchase last year was a 7 plank wagon @ £12.11, todays price is £16.11, a 33% increase in 12 months.

 

 

 

[Legend]

I have stopped buying Bachmann rolling stock as their price increases have gone over the top for me.

Looking at my Hattons invoices the Midland 20T Brake Vans were £12.03 in 2014, today they are £24.61, over 100% increase in 4 years.[/size]

My last purchase last year was a 7 plank wagon @ £12.11, todays price is £16.11, a 33% increase in 12 months.[/size]

Yep I’m the same. Stopped buying Bachmann when the prices went through the roof . Last purchase was a 64xx 5 years ago. I did pick up a couple of autocoaches second hand and even then @£40 I thought that was excessive , although I think they are about £65 new.. second hand is a good source for stock if you are unwilling to pay full prices . I quite fancy a DBSO but there’s no way I’m paying £80. I’m hoping some kit conversions will appear second hand when the Bachmann model comes out. I don’t want all the DCC gubbins these models come with.

[The Johnster]

The point about the Bachmann 56xx, which I regard as one of the best value models on the market at the moment at £97, is an interesting one.  It is a first class model, well detailed and a superb runner, and my only, carping, criticism is that the very good front lamp irons are only replicated on the back end by the one at the top of the bunker; the ones at the bottom of the bunker are moulded.  It even comes with target discs for South Wales working.

 

But I recently purchased one for just under £50, more or less half price, on 'Bay 'Buy It Now'.  I have given up on auctions, they are suckers of time and lead to disappointment more often than they don't.  But the experience highlighted the good and bad points of secondhand buying.  The loco is current production, and was sold as MIB, but it wasn't.  It was in a box, right enough, but not it's original one; mine was BR black and the box specified lined green.  There were one or two minor issues; a bit of flash on the boiler top handrail and a scruffily applied left hand unicyling lion and smokebox number.  These were not a problem in my case as I intended to renumber and re-livery the loco anyway.

 

But worse was to come.  The rear buffer beam was not, apparently, fully sprayed red and faded to black at the top.  Then I discovered that in fact it was the other way around, as somebody had sprayed the cab windows black.  In fact, it then became obvious that the whole loco had been resprayed black, and that this was the reason for the problem with the rear buffer beam and probably the reason for the ropey lion if someone had tried to put new transfers on and not sealed them properly.  I dismantled the cab to get the glazing out to clean it, but the spray paint had irretrievably fogged it, so I replaced it with glue'n'glaze rather than wait for a replacement glazing piece from Bachmann.

 

Now, on the one hand, I've got a virtually brand new 56xx which I was going to do a bit of work on anyway, the only extra I've been put to is the glue'n'glaze, which I already had for another project.  For £50, it's a good buy, and the £47 I've saved is a third of the way to the new 94xx when it appears.  On the other hand, I would have been very disappointed had I been a newbie without the necessary skills or ability to do the work I've done to bring it back up to scratch.  It is not an experience that re-assures me about the basic honesty of eBay sellers, and this one is apparently a dealer with good ratings.  If this happens again, I'll be naming and shaming!  I suspect the model is a customer return he can't get rid of which he is trying to knock out for what he can get for it.  

 

Of course, had he come clean, the price would have perhaps been a tenner less, and I'd be less unhappy.  

 

Re Bachmann wagons, I'm in the process, actually near the end of the process, of replacing the chassis of my older wagons with modern versions that have brake blocks in line with the wheels and separate brake handles.  I have purchased a few LMS 3 plankers as donors for this, at £11.95 a pop.  The Dapol chassis are cheaper and available separately, but are no better standard than those I am replacing, and the wheels are awful.  Recent Bachmann wagons may not be bargain basement stuff, but they are very good indeed.  As my BLT doesn't need large numbers of them, I don't mind stumping up £16-£17 a time for them so much as I would if I was buying 60 wagon rakes!  I am old enough to remember 1960s rtr, and appreciate how much better modern stuff is.

Edited September 24, 2018 by The Johnster

[Jeff Smith]

Ref the lamp irons, I assume you are commenting on moulded versus separately fitted. Although an aerospace engineer (where everything is expensive) I spent a short time designing/detailing in the automotive industry. I was working on productionizing a trailer tow bar. The company representative overseeing me (as a contractor) suggested changes that would save a few pence per unit and commented that over a production run the savings would be considerable (this was 40 years ago).

 

The same principle would undoubtedly be applied to control RTR costs, a moulded-on part saves a separate installation step with time saved and a possible error step eliminated. Anyone who has been involved in QC would understand that any effort to eliminate rejection risk is desirable. It is part of mistake-proofing.

[Right Away]

In some instances the re-issuing of older models can appear to command near identical prices to those of a brand new release.

A renumber/rename is all that has occurred; the cost of initial development and tooling of these older models has been returned manyfold.

 

For those considering a return to the hobby, perhaps a little help with their first purchases of higher detailed models from the manufacturers would be a step in the right direction.

 

 

Just a tad of greed there?

Edited September 25, 2018 by Right Away

[Andy W]

Didn't mean to imply that, but the fact remains that Chinese products were better detailed and turned a better profit.  This is not down to workmanship; I cannot believe that Chinese workers are inherently superior or inferior to ours or anyone's in this respect. The key to China's success was in being able to offer a very high quality product at a much lower cost than could be achieved in the UK without major re-investment in moulding tech and production R & D that those manufacturers based here could not afford (in the sense that they couldn't justify it to their shareholders) at the time.

 

The Chinese model is unlike ours. in which one concern oversees the entire process from initial conception to distribution, in house and usually on the same premises.  The Chinese work differently, by sub contracting.  The British company does the product research, but not the production research (how to put it together) and approaches a Chinese agency, which organises the sub contracts, out to various design and production facilities scattered all across that huge country, almost cottage industries, the collection of the components into assembly facilities and the final packing and shipping arrangements, and managing QC at each stage.  

 

This is not the traditional British way of doing things, and when the market conditions made it the most effective and profitable option, the Chinese were able to offer the best deal.  This is simply capitalism, red in tooth and claw; companies do not make models for our benefit but for their shareholders'.  It probably wouldn't have worked in the UK anyway even if costs could have been kept down; this business of co-ordinating production over a large number of geographically remote facilities connected by internet was already a strength that the very culture of Chinese society could play to (they were 'collective orientated' to top down organisation 3.000 years before Communism), and one that we had little experience of  Of course, it was possible for RTR to be made to that quality here in the UK, just not economically viable, and this was not the fault of the abilities or skills of anyone involved; as I said, they did their best, who wouldn't.  It is human nature if you are making something to do the best you can!

 

Hornby were probably the slowest to pick up on this, and they are arguably still suffering the fallout of this and the late realisation that the market was moving away from train set quality.  They still haven't completely rid themselves of this, and are trying their luck with the somewhat confusing and directionless 'Railroad' range of older models to clear the stocks.

The description of how the UK model railway market changed is pretty close but misses out how Bachmann function. You can trace their development back to Palitoy deciding to enter the model railway market in the UK in the 1970s using the Mainline brand, and commissioning Kader Industries, then of Hong Kong to supply them with models. So no manufacturing was moved from the UK, because Palitoy never made railway models in the UK in the first place. The tooling for Mainline models was owned by Kader, who were thus in a different relationship with Palitoy than other Chinese manufacturers were with the UK companies that commissioned models from them.

When Palitoy got into difficulties in the 1980s and was sold to a company that wasn't interested in the train market, Kader was stuck with the tools and had no outlet for products made with them. Replica commissioned some re-runs of former Mainline models and some nearly-finished new projects, such as the B1, were completed and sold under the Replica brand. But Replica wasn't awash with cash and Kader wanted more sales. They formed Bachmann Europe in conjunction with some of Palitoy's former sales and development team, it has always been a Kader subsidiary, but it is no coincidence that Bachmann Europe is based in Leicestershire just as Palitoy was.

Kader has far less product made by subcontractors than the other Chinese model-assemblers, and indeed is putting the finishing touches to a new factory designed to bring even more work in house. It can do this because it also owns Bachmann USA, Bachmann Europe owns Graham Farish and Lilliput, and models are also produced and sold for the local Chinese market, so there are considerable economies of scale. There is a much higher degree of vertical integration than with anyone else involved in the UK model railway sector (except I suppose PECO).

[MartynJPearson]

The second hand versus new market is interesting.

 

Manufacturing economies favour large scale runs whereas the demand in our hobby is low volume and constant. So, I guess the model railway world has to find and adapt to a compromise. The compromise is that only a certain amount of a certain piece of stock enter the market at a given time and then do not do so again for a length of time. If the demand is "off cycle" then the second hand market is the only source of such a model.

 

So, for example the last time a OO gauge BR Blue Class 31 hit the market was courtesy of Hornby some years ago; anyone now starting a layout, joining the hobby or simply wanting to add one to their collection will be hard pushed to find one new (Mazak rot issues aside!) and hence the second hand market is the only source.

 

I wonder how much manufacturers watch eBay to see what the market is looking for - and possibly more importantly - what the market is willing to pay.