Why do model railway builders expect a discount

[Graham Walters]

Running a model shop is not easy, running a model shop that sells model railway items is even harder, why is it that if a plastic kit builder comes into my shop he chooses the kit, come tot he counter, he may add some glue, sanding sticks and paint to his purchase,  total the goods up, tell him the cost and out comes the cash or the card, he walks away after maybe a brief chat as happy as a sand boy.

The same goes for people who buy model aircraft, wargames, or the dolls house ladies that buy the scenics.

 

But the railway modeler is always the one who asks 'any discount'   why ?  Why do they expect discount ?

 

When they go to TESCO or ALDI do they ask the cashier there for discount ?

 

It's got to the point where I and my colleague are seriously considering not stocking any locomotives, rolling stock or carriages, instead we may be gong down the route of just carrying track and accessories, then again I've been asked to give discount on a pack of rail joiners, even worse they then want to pay by card !

[Guy Rixon]

Are the awkward customers perhaps a generation older on average than the others? Might they therefore have less money and a greater sense of entitlement?

 

Back when most models were either cheap toys or scratch-built from scrap material, railway modelling used to be a cheap hobby. It was something you could afford on a state pension. RTR is no longer cheap and most of us lack skills, time or both to build from cheap materials, so the hobby is expensive ... but for crusty gits my age it still feels like it ought to be cheap.

 

In this respect, builders of, say plastic aircraft-kits have it easier. I've just looked up prices of Eduard kits in 1:72 scale and all those for single aircraft seem to be under £20. Some are under £10. These kits come with all parts, including transfers and sometimes etched details. In contrast, a wagon based on a plastic kit generally costs me upwards of £30 when I include transfers, decent wheels, suspension and replacement detailing. Wagons built from etched kits cost more; coaches cost much more. So, although I'm not asking for discount (or sympathy), I can see why some modellers seek to reduce expense.

[cypherman]

Hi Graham,

I know it is a difficult thing for any small business to swallow taking a small amount of the price of a product as your margins are quite small. You can probably to some extent blame the larger retailers who quite often discount their stock. They more than likely but more and get it cheaper than you. Therefore they can do a little discounting and still make a profit. Your average buyer of model railway products sees this and thinks if they can do it why can't you.

But to look at it another way a £150 loco is a lot more expensive than a £15 Airfix kit. Another plus point is that the person who buys the £150 loco is more likely to return and buy more expensive items where the person buying the Airfix kit will come back and buy another £15 kit.

You could also go the other way by raising the price of your stock by say 5% and when you sell it let them have a 5% discount on that price. They are happy they have got a discount and you do not loose any money. I personally do not agree with this practice as it is not very moral, But I have seen it done in the past. Needless to say they did not get any trade from me and both the shops that I know did it have ceased trading quite some time ago.

Edited September 24, 2018 by cypherman

[Derekl]

You could also go the other way by raising the price of your stock by say 5% and when you sell it let them have a 5% discount on that price. They are happy they have got a discount and you do not loose any money. I personally do not agree with this practice as it is not very moral, But I have seen it done in the past. Needless to say they did not get any trade from me and both the shops that I know did it have ceased trading quite some time ago.

 

I am pretty sure this is not legal - Tesco got fined something significant for doing something similar. Although I suppose you have to be found out....

[Wheatley]

I assume you're one of the model shops in Andover. If so then taking a random item from the website of the one Andover model shop with a website (Hornby R4859 DVT), they're selling it at full RRP (£74.99) and the discounters (Hattons in this case) are undercutting them by £15.

 

Conversely, products in other parts of the wider Hornby Hobbies range (Airfix Phantom and Victor) seem to be within a couple of quid of RRP everywhere. (£25 and £60 respectively).

 

In other words, discounting on railways but not on plastic kits seems to be expected because, er ... it just is. See numerous other threads for opinions and explanations of why this should/should not be the case.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Wheatley

[njee20]

For 10 years up to finishing uni I worked part time (and periodically full time) in a bike shop, still occasionally help out on a Saturday if they're short staffed. Frequently customers would want a discount. This was most commonly posed as "I'm a member of x club", where x was a club to which the shop had some sort of affiliation, or "I'm buying 10 of x, can I have a discount?". Both wholly reasonable, and in the former I'd oblige if it was a valid claim, and in the latter case I'd exercise my discretion and either oblige or decline.

 

Much less frequently you'd have people just saying "can i have a discount?". This was often through some personal feeling of loyalty to the shop, whether misplaced or not. My criteria for qualifying for a discount would be someone I was on first name terms with, and could have meaningful discussion with; ask about family or something beyond discussing the weather. If I didn't know the person asking I'd always ask why they wanted a discount. People would sometimes say "I'm in the fire service/military", or "I'm a regular customer", but occasionally they'd just give you a blank look and shrug and say "I don't know, just thought I'd ask". It seems those people probably do ask just about everywhere if they can have a discount. Fair play to them I guess, I actually found it less annoying than those who felt some sort of entitlement, and when I said no (as I nearly always did) they were always good natured.

 

"Don't forget my discount!" was definitely the phrase most likely to mean I'm far less amenable to any sort of enhanced service, and will absolutely make sure you pay for every minute of workshop time. Courtesy costs nothing.

Clearly it's your prerogative, seems to me that stopping stocking entire ranges in a bid to actively drive customers away would be pretty short sighted. Just smile politely and either oblige them or decline, then move on with your life.

[cypherman]

I am pretty sure this is not legal - Tesco got fined something significant for doing something similar. Although I suppose you have to be found out....

Hi Dereki.

I do not know the legality of it. I just found it immoral and underhanded hence the shops that did it lost my custom. I am assuming and I know I should not assume but here goes that it is still happening in the retail world. As I said both the shops that I know did this have ceased trading a long time ago. Thinking about it is making me feel old as it must be 30 years ago when the last one shut.

[Free At Last]

I would never ask for a discount.

The same goes if I am selling, the price I ask is what I want, I don't jack it up to be knocked down.

I don't ask for a discount at Hattons.

I don't ask for a discount at the supermarkets either.

I only buy from where the price is what I want to pay, therefore I shop around.

 

A while back, out with my daughter in town on a Sunday morning we went in to Timpsons to ask the price of fitting a watch battery. The shop was empty and the shopkeeper was reading a newspaper behind the counter. He looked at the watch and said £17.00. She didn't ask for a discount, we just left him to get on with reading his paper in the empty shop and went elsewhere where she was charged £3.50.

[njee20]

That's an interesting example, as Timpson stores have the autonomy to set their own prices, and our local one is superb and very competitive.

[Big James]

I’ve worked for the majority of the major retailers for about 15 years and a manager for the last 10. It’s quite common for someone to find something that’s got damaged packaging just to ask for a discount.

 

Big James

[woodenhead]

The only time I look to pay less than the ticket price is at a Toy and Train fair which is effectively a car boot sale to me, oh and the Bachmann stand at Warley.

 

Other than that i pay what is on the label, if I don't like the price I seek out a cheaper one or don't buy.

 

The only time perhaps where it might be acceptable is at an exhibition where you have two retailers selling the same item at the show but different prices, you are known to the seller at the higher price and you might ask to price match (within reason) and/or maybe your buying other stuff too.

 

But to walk into a shop and just ask for discount, I wouldn't be comfortable doing that.

[Georgeconna]

The way some of the Plastic kits have rocketed up in price you might in future have the same issue!!!

[Steamport Southport]

Running a model shop is not easy, running a model shop that sells model railway items is even harder, why is it that if a plastic kit builder comes into my shop he chooses the kit, come tot he counter, he may add some glue, sanding sticks and paint to his purchase,  total the goods up, tell him the cost and out comes the cash or the card, he walks away after maybe a brief chat as happy as a sand boy.

The same goes for people who buy model aircraft, wargames, or the dolls house ladies that buy the scenics.

 

But the railway modeler is always the one who asks 'any discount'   why ?  Why do they expect discount ?

 

When they go to TESCO or ALDI do they ask the cashier there for discount ?

 

It's got to the point where I and my colleague are seriously considering not stocking any locomotives, rolling stock or carriages, instead we may be gong down the route of just carrying track and accessories, then again I've been asked to give discount on a pack of rail joiners, even worse they then want to pay by card !

 

Probably because we know the discount is already applied in supermarkets.

 

Buy beer, Coca Cola or milk in Tesco, Sainsbury's,  etc and then buy it in a corner shop. See the difference in price.

 

BUT, don't most supermarkets do a cashback scheme if you can get the item cheaper elsewhere? You have to ask for it though.

 

 

BTW. I should have clarified.

 

No I don't ask for discounts. Not on new items anyway. If you have a load of old tat to get rid of then surely haggling is allowed?

 

 

Jason

Edited September 24, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[colin penfold]

Interesting.

 

My assumption in any shop is that the marked price is the selling price. I wouldn't ask for a discount instore. The one exception to that would be antique shops where pricing is not an exact science and a little haggle seems to be the done thing.

 

I do shop around online and buy at the best price I can find. Most things in retail are discounted from RRP somewhere. That applies to all items not just railways. I will also pay a little more than the cheapest option to support a local store or if good advice or support is given.

 

To answer your original question I expect a discount against RRP on model railways because it is generally available - clearly some companies' business models allow them to make money by discounting.

[njee20]

I’ve worked for the majority of the major retailers for about 15 years and a manager for the last 10. It’s quite common for someone to find something that’s got damaged packaging just to ask for a discount.

 

Big James

Seems very sensible - if you're going to destroy the packaging anyway, why not?

[grandadbob]

I worked for a large builder's merchant for 38 years and got used to the world and his wife asking for discount as they were "trade" when they obviously weren't.  It's pretty obvious they're not if they're asking how to mix up concrete or lay bricks etc!  Also as stated above many other people from emergency services, sports clubs, charities etc did the same. If you don't want to give a discount just refuse.

I did once have a "discussion" with members of the travelling community who wanted to buy some paving bricks. On being told my price of  £310 per 1000 (or whatever it was at the time) I was told they could get them down the road at £250 per 1000. I said they better go and get them down the road then as I couldn't meet that price.  "Ah " says they " we can't do that, they haven't got any. Says I, " If I didn't have any I'd do them for £200 per 1000."  It took a few minutes for that to sink in and they left muttering dire threats and casting aspersions about my parentage and everything else but after years of that sort of abuse it was like water off a duck's back. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by grandadbob

[Clive Mortimore]

Running a model shop is not easy, running a model shop that sells model railway items is even harder, why is it that if a plastic kit builder comes into my shop he chooses the kit, come tot he counter, he may add some glue, sanding sticks and paint to his purchase,  total the goods up, tell him the cost and out comes the cash or the card, he walks away after maybe a brief chat as happy as a sand boy.

The same goes for people who buy model aircraft, wargames, or the dolls house ladies that buy the scenics.

 

But the railway modeler is always the one who asks 'any discount'   why ?  Why do they expect discount ?

 

When they go to TESCO or ALDI do they ask the cashier there for discount ?

 

It's got to the point where I and my colleague are seriously considering not stocking any locomotives, rolling stock or carriages, instead we may be gong down the route of just carrying track and accessories, then again I've been asked to give discount on a pack of rail joiners, even worse they then want to pay by card !

Hi Graham

 

I use to work in a model railway shop, and would be frequently asked for discount "Well I am member of the Better Than Yours Club". The look when I would say , "never heard of them so no discount", in fact we didn't even give discount to the local club. No one from the local club expected it as they were in the main regular customers.

 

The shop owner on a couple of occasions where someone would demand discount for what ever reason, would bundle up their perspective purchases and put the items back on the shelf. Reminding the customer that the sale of goods was a two way contract and as they didn't like his terms then they had terminated the contract.  If they carried on he would open the door for them.

 

I do know of a club member who stopped visiting his local shop because they did not give his son the "club discount".

 

Having said that as a modeller I have been lucky and had discount from two shops, one I use to help if the shop was busy or the owner attending an exhibition and the other I am friends with the previous owner and the current owners. The second shop took on a new member of staff who didn't give me my discount, he wasn't to know and I wasn't disappointed.

 

Offering discount to the local club can bring in trade, but being friendly and on a Saturday afternoon the shop becoming an unofficial club meeting place can bring in as much trade. Offering discount to people you are friends with is a very nice gesture.

 

Discount is great when you get it but don't ask for it.

[Legend]

I never ask for a discount in store . As others have said I’d pay the price on the box . Do you have prices on the boxes or do people have to ask you how much? That might be the issue, they then don’t like the price and ask for a discount.

 

If I don’t like the price on the box , I will just walk away. So to get a sale from me you do need to be competitive. Anyone who buys Railway Modeller will know Hattons/Rails/Hereford prices. I do take things into account, like being able to test loco, ability to bring it back etc . That’s why I used D and F in Glasgow . Not the cheapest but not full price either, but friendly service . It was well worth giving them my business. Irrelevant now , as they retired and so nearly all my models are second hand from swapmeets or eBay with the occasional new purchase mostly through Rails , as they seem most competitive at the moment .

 

But you are quite right if you don’t want the hassle , just don’t bother selling them. Kind of think you might lose out on another income stream, though.

[DavidR]

Sometimes you can get a discount just by asking. Some years ago Mrs.DavidR talked me into getting a new suit from a company called 'Bytom', whilst in Poland (they're really good!).. Having chosen the item, tried it on, all was perfect. All the transaction was done in Polish. When I came to pay I asked the salesman if they would offer any free gif(s): the suit was 399 GBP.

My wife tut-tutted and said I had embarrassed her, however the man threw in a decent tie with matching cuff links Satisfaction all round: he'd made a decent sale and I'd got my freebies.

[Legend]

Thinking about it , the only time I ask for a discount is when buying a new car. That doesn’t mean I pay full price on everything else , but shop around for best prices which are shown without needing to ask .

[Oldddudders]

Haggling over the price is certainly not English, maybe not British. The sticker price is what you pay, so just do it and look big, or go elsewhere. But there are exceptions.

 

Car buying is an area where men, in particular, love to boast in the pub about how they “chipped” the dealer, who of course knows exactly what his margin is, and how desperate he is to shift metal that day. He’ll probably get back at the buyer through selling him options, as well. Insurance is highly competitive, so expressing astonishment to get a % off may work there, too.

 

But in an era when the whole High Street is on its knees, and model shops are an endangered species, it hardly seems the dignified thing to do.

[Classsix T]

I'm certainly not getting into the "Englishness" or lack of Ian, but I've usually conducted business and will broach the subject of "anything off?" purely on the basis of if you don't ask, you don't get - and I make that perfectly clear. I'm polite about it and a "no" doesn't cause me umbrage. Expectation isn't even a part of it, it's a pleasant surprise oft times.

 

Graham asks:

"But the railway modeler is always the one who asks 'any discount' why ? Why do they expect discount?"

 

It's a question not an expectation! If you don't discount, you don't, fair play. You run your business and the customer decides whether to facilitate that with their, er, custom. No harm no foul.

 

Ever thought perhaps the "trade" itself is perhaps partly responsible for this?

 

Do plastic kit/doll's house manufacturers have fire sales, dump product on the market, supply to bricks and mortar, box-shifters and wholesalers (to then pass on to Blokeinhislivingroommodels@ebay)?

 

It isn't a level playing field for retailers meaning RRP is the high bar and I think it a tad unfair to blame the customer for seeking fiscal limbo below it.

The discount I've received on some bundle purchases has seen me spend it on another item BTW.

 

C6T.

[The Johnster]

Is this a recent phenomenon?  If so the very rapid increase in model railway RTR items over the last year or so may be driving it,

 

I never ask for discount, not that sort of bloke, but my regular model railway shop will frequently 'round down' a bill without being asked, a gesture I greatly appreciate.  My principle is that it costs what it costs, and I can't be bothered haggling if I've already decided I want it at that price.  If I don't want it at that price, game over.  I pay cash or debit card, by the way.

 

My advice, FWIW, is suck it up buttercup if you're a retailer.  You probably don't want to hear that, and I do sympathise, really; the general public can be highly irritating.  But nothing looks more 'entitled' than a retailer appearing to complain about his customers, even if it's a genuine complaint and you didn't mean it that way.  If you are to survive in a world of online box shifters, your weapon is good service no matter how much it galls when people come in, examine the latest new arrival from BacHelDapOxHo or whoever, make you test run it, and then get it for £20 less from somewhere in Liverpool.  I appreciate the problem, having once had a job in which I had to deal with the public.  Need a good baseball batting, the lot of 'em.

 

I have basically 3 outlets within access of my home that sell RTR model railways; one is the above mentioned shop, which is a very good proper model railway outlet that has a secondhand department and carries a good stock of accessories, one of which is a general modelling shop which stocks some RTR and a small range of accessories, but is very good for tools. basic materials. and comestibles such as paint, thinners, and glue, and another sort of halfway between shop which is a very long established business.  Sadly, this latter's very knowledgeable owner has departed for the great exhibition in the sky, where he has a permanent trade stand next to the bar, and the people running it are doing their best but are a bit out of their depth.

 

You have to know the catalogue number of what you want or they don't understand, and then they can't remember where to find it; it is therefore my 'shop of last resort' before I give up trying to buy something locally and resort to online ordering from an outlet that can survive perfectly well without my meagre business.  This is a shame, and not helped by coming away with the feeling that you've been a nuisance and asked for something unreasonable.  I'd like to support them more than I do, as I get the impression they could use all the support they can get, but the situation is off-putting.  

 

We had a shop some years ago in my city that was within 5 minutes walk, and it was a very good shop, too, but the owner was outright rude and arrogant even when he was having a good day, which wasn't often.  He is remembered in the area with considerable distaste, and nobody was bothered when he inevitably went under, blaming everybody but himself.  People like this, who clearly have genuine issues in dealing with the general public, should really think hard before they go into this sort of fairly intimate and personal hobby retailing.  It's a bit like bus drivers who seem to be the sort of people who are annoyed by heavy traffic and the general public, why do they do it if they hate those things so much...

Edited September 24, 2018 by The Johnster

[SGJ]

I generally buy from either a online store or Frizinghall  ( Frizinghall is less of a discount than online and already marked on the price tag ) so basically if I go to another shop I will ask for a discount ( any discount if its less than rrp Is great ) even if £1.00 off of a £150.00 loco is offered would be £149.00 then I can make my money go further, if the shop says no that is fine too, I would simply say no problem and leave, and buy from who will give a discount.

I expect a discount because I can get one, maybe or maybe not in your shop but I can get a discount so will ask.

I dont ask for discounts on coaches, wagons, track etc

On a sub note

I used to buy some wagons and bits from trader at shows quite regular ( paid the ticket price without asking for a discount ) and even bought a DCC controller set from them, I wanted a deltic some years ago and saw the the trader (They sell a lot of DCC items) at the Pontefract show, so asked him for a couple of pounds off the price he was asking ( quite literally £2.00 ) which would have been £20 more than Hattons price, he said no and thus Hattons had my money, I have not bought from the l retailer since so i think that by not giving a discount of £2 on a loco that he could have done he has lost out on all the decoders wagons coaches etc that I would have bought from him since, his loss = Frizinghall / Online retailers gain.

 

Simon

[Junctionmad]

Don’t worry , in a few years there be zero customers asking a discount as they’ll have all gone to the internet

 

I’m reminded of the quip “ this would be a great business if it wasn’t for the customers “

Edited September 24, 2018 by Junctionmad