Why do model railway builders expect a discount

[Legend]

If a displayed price is just an 'Invitation to Treat' rather than a fixed sum I'll try that on the cashier next time I'm at Sainsbury's !

 

I have never asked for or expected a discount at any kind of shop, whether selling model railways or anything else. However, until it sadly closed, my local shop was D&F Models in Glasgow, and as a regular and recognised customer they voluntarily gave me a discount, which of course made me feel a valued customer and therefore more likely to visit the shop again.

Much missed is certainly true

[jjb1970]

How many people just offer the asking price for a house without considering the state of the market, how long it has been on sale, alternative properties etc? If you think a deal can be done I suspect most people will make an offer based on what they think it is worth and if the seller doesn't want to negotiate (which is their perogative) then there will be other properties to look at. As a good Puerto Rican friend says - there is no such thing as being half pregnant.

[Nearholmer]

Its all about how, where, and when though, isn't it?

 

'Everybody in the universe' knows that it is usually possible to buy r-t-r and mainstream stuff cheaper from an on-line 'box shifter' than from one of the ever-diminishing number of real local shops, but chipping at their margins is counterproductive ..... its why there are so few left.

 

Houses, cars, and absolutely anything secondhand fall into a different bracket when it comes to haggling, IMO.

 

But, but, it is quite apparent that, just now, in all sorts of manufactured goods there is something approaching over-supply, so that suppliers are cutting one another's throats ...... I read the John Lewis profit collapse story to contain a warning that their 'never knowingly undersold' promise is killing them, for instance. And, I just bought a new car (the previous one lasted me thirteen years) and was able to set showrooms bidding against one another to secure the best price (over 25% off list). Is there, in fact, over-supply in toy trains?

 

Kevin

[Guest]

Many things are overpriced, cars especially. I’d never buy a new car. For example I have just paid £22k for a 9 month old BMW M Sport estate. List price was £40k. 10,000 miles.

I now feel new OO Gauge locos are overpriced. £170 for a loco when I can buy O Gauge at £500. That’s why I haggle for the very rare purchase of an OO Gauge loco I want.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Guest

[Nearholmer]

This is the first time I ever bought new. Previously, I’ve bought c6 months old ‘demonstrators’, and that’s what I was searching for when I started to find dealers offering big discounts on new cars, taking them into the price bracket that i’d set, because, frankly, far too many cars were fed into the market earlier this year. Manufacturers are talking about ‘plant stand downs’ now to reduce the supply.

 

We do seem to be in an era of over supply, which implies deflation of at least part of the economy.

 

Services seem different, though, with under-supply due to skills-shortages driving inflation. I guess robots can do a lot of making, but not yet much ‘doing and mending’.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Nearholmer

[brianusa]

I now feel new OO Gauge locos are overpriced. £170 for a loco when I can buy O Gauge at £500. That’s why I haggle for the very rare purchase of an OO Gauge loco I want.

 

How true!  When I read the Hattons prices in the RM, etc, I find it amazing that OO locos are so expensive these days.  In my OO days, I was able to acquire a reasonable fleet of locos without having to put it on a credit card, whereas nowadays I may have to put it on a credit card!.  Such trains now are almost out of the kiddie class; any child would have to have a lot of pocket money to even afford a wagon and a loco would have to come from Father Christmas or some other kind hearted relative.  I moved on to O tinplate which is certainly not cheap but seems to represent more value for a similar amount of money. perhaps because it its bigger!

 

Brian.

[SGJ]

I am not making a point or statement or want flames thrown in my direction but there seams to be a way on ebay to ask for a discount  ...http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128138-ebay-best-offer-why-do-sellers-use-it/

 

 

[Barry O]

Not sure why , if you are building model railways ..or providing services to railway modellers, you would want a discount as the HMRC see your purchases as expenses against your tax bill.

 

If you get a discount fine (possibly for bulk buying?), but unless you are passing on savings to your customers...why bother?

 

baz

[jjb1970]

Discounting model railway goods is nothing new, for as long as I can remember it has been a cut throat market with shops pricing aggressively to get sales. The retailers are the ones who created the expectation, not all of them but enough of them to establish the expectation. I think the game changer was e-commerce making online shopping a preferred option for many by making shopping so easy and quick. And nothing prevents any shop developing their online presence. The "big" box shifters are small shops in the greater scheme of things. Even if you look on Amazon most model railway goods are sold by regular model shops such as Gaugemaster.

[Legend]

The phenomenon certainly goes back to the early 70s. I remember Beatties adverts in the Railway Modeller with Hornby at a discount. Then Railmail of Watford . So it’s nothing new . As JJB says though it’s the internet and ecommerce that’s caused the huge explosion in people buying discounted goods . It’s not going to go away so what shops there are left, Railway or otherwise, are going to have to adapt. I’m not looking for equal prices to the internet but there has to be some reason for buying from you, whether that’s great service, ability to test run loco, large variety of stock . If you carry limited stock (and I appreciate the huge amount of working capital carrying stock requires), everything at full mrp or no prices displayed , then I’m afraid I think you won’t last in todays environment.

[The Stationmaster]

Its all about how, where, and when though, isn't it?

 

'Everybody in the universe' knows that it is usually possible to buy r-t-r and mainstream stuff cheaper from an on-line 'box shifter' than from one of the ever-diminishing number of real local shops, but chipping at their margins is counterproductive ..... its why there are so few left.

 

Houses, cars, and absolutely anything secondhand fall into a different bracket when it comes to haggling, IMO.

 

But, but, it is quite apparent that, just now, in all sorts of manufactured goods there is something approaching over-supply, so that suppliers are cutting one another's throats ...... I read the John Lewis profit collapse story to contain a warning that their 'never knowingly undersold' promise is killing them, for instance. And, I just bought a new car (the previous one lasted me thirteen years) and was able to set showrooms bidding against one another to secure the best price (over 25% off list). Is there, in fact, over-supply in toy trains?

 

Kevin

 

I think you are quite right about over-supply in some areas but it is variable (even in the model railway world although there it seems to be mainly where some manufacturers have wrongly estimated demand).  But the big competition in retail (in its widest sense) seems to be on price and very little else for many shoppers, so retailers have no option but to join in that battle if they wish to survive and can stand the consequential reduced levels of profit and impact on cash flow.  And of course they resort to all sorts of tricks such as reducing quantities but maintaining the price level.

 

We have a particular, and very basic, example.  As a family of four we usually buy not only a particular brand of toilet paper but also generally a pack of 16.  But not only is there price variations between supermarkets on the packs of 16 but at times it can be cheaper to buy packs of 9 if they are on special offer locally.  Over the past year or so the normal retail price stabilised at £8.25 for a 16 pack but then either Tesco or Waitrose would reduce their price to £7.40 so we bought from whichever had the offer on and generally when the offer finished with one it would be available within a few weeks at the other.  A couple of months back Waitrose increased their price to £8.45 and have yet - in our area - to offer a reduction on that but fortunately Tesco stuck to £7.40 for a while and we always stock up at the lower price.  A couple of weeks back Tesco put out a pallet full at a special offer price of £6.50 - so we stocked up (daft not to of course).  This week following reorganisation of the shop layout our local Tesco has put the price up to £9.45 (which might be an error as it is well out of line with Waitrose locally).  We now await the next round of promotional price reduction from one or the other but in the meanwhile we have six unopened packs of 16 toilet rolls in reserve.

 

Maybe a daft example but it seems to be how much of retail now works and as we shop at both these supermarkets regularly it's easy to follow the prices on these and other essential goods and only buy when lower prices are in operation (yes, we also have a small hillock of tins of baked beans purchased in a similar way at discounted prices- but definitely not Heinz!)

[Ryde-on-time]

One aspect of shops and pricing which I have not seen discussed on this thread, and which I think increases the requests for a discount, is where shops have an online price and much higher in-store price (Often RRP). There are large companies such as Richer Sounds who operate a similar policy, but they make it clear (and hence there is no awkwardness) that if you visit a shop and know there is a cheaper online price for a product, you can ask for the cheaper price and they will honor it

 

We were passing a model shop where I had seen a loco advertised for ~£130 including packaging and postage. In-store the shop the loco was priced at ~£150. No mention on the website that they would honor the lower price instore if asked. What does one do in such a situation? - ask for a discount which a fair few on this thread seem to see as rude, go back home and buy online (where the retailer would need to shell out for packaging and postage) or just buy elsewhere (which is what I did outside the shop on my phone, buying from a large shop I have an account with, while waiting for the wife)

[Guest]

On principle I don’t buy from retailers who use differential pricing. It smacks of taking advantage of walk-in customers, almost like profiteering. A bit like the Utility companies.

[Salmotrutta]

A few points:

1. If a bricks and mortar store has a higher price than online it always worth asking. But don't forget that there is also P&P to add. If they can't match to price of a "big box" retailer on a loco they might be able to sweeten the deal with a discount on something with a better margin like wagons or track. Look after your local shop because next time you need just one yard of PECO streamline it will be there for you.
2. The price gap between 00 and 0 scale is narrowing as the material costs of each scale are only a small part of the final cost. Production costs in China have risen dramatically and there is also a limited pool of talent there experienced in model railway manufacture. Tooling and assembly of the complex models drive much of the production cost. The decline in the relative value of the pound hasn't helped either. 
3. Model railways are now a "niche market" - and have been for some time. There really isn't sufficient profit in retail unless you sell much more than model railways or go "box shifter" and hope to get the volume to cover costs. The only way to maintain a reasonable margin as a small retailer is to produce unique models just for your store. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I’m sorry but they are not very good comparisons. All the ones you mention are contractual obligations. An asking price, as has previously been mentioned, is an invitation to treat and therefore legally different. Also your decision to purchase is discretionary while your examples are obligatory.

Don't you take the opportunity to negotiate before signing a contract? If the other party won't, then (with the exception of the tax gatherer) you can always look elsewhere. How/why else did all those comparison sights come about?

[jjb1970]

On principle I don’t buy from retailers who use differential pricing. It smacks of taking advantage of walk-in customers, almost like profiteering. A bit like the Utility companies.

In some ways I agree, it does indicate that shops are happy to charge the gullible (or lazy) who are ignorant of online prices more, on the other hand if people can't make the effort to check prices then they probably won't be aware they've paid more than the needed to. On the other hand it is another reason why people shouldn't feel guilty about price checking and looking for the best deal. In a way I feel the same about "mates rates", why should people pay more just because they don't know the staff? Stuff like this is a two way thing, shops can charge what they like as that is entirely the business of the shop owner, equally the buyer is free to make their own decision about whether they buy. At the end of the day it is just a commercial transaction. Remember, nobody needs a model train.

[Iain Popplewell]

Several years ago at the Keighley show I was perusing the Treemendous stand, they make and market scenic scatters and the like. In front of me was an elderly gent interrogating the owner of the stand over almost every aspect of scenic modelling imaginable. This went on for ages, but the advice the gent was getting seemed excellent and I gained the impression that this Treemendous guy knew what he was on about, so I patiently earwigged the conversation.

 

Eventually the old guy chose two small bags of scenic scatter and to my amazement after asking how much, (they weren't expensive), he then had the cheek to ask for a discount. The stand owner then gave him a discount. I actually felt sorry for the stall holder, he'd spent ages giving free good advice to the guy who was then too tight to pay the asking price on what was a very small purchase.

 

Having formed a good impression of the expertise of the Treemendous owner I then purchased his own book on scenic modelling, ( it's excellent by the way), at considerably higher cost than what the old tight git payed for his two bags of scatter. Did I ask for a discount? No of course not.

 

Here was a guy selling and manufacturing a niche product for our hobby and probably not making much in return, it's an insult to my mind to ask for a discount. Why should you get one, you're doing no more than purchasing some of what he's selling. 

 

To my mind the hobby needs the small sellers of kits, scenic scatters and the like, what they sell will never make them rich. Give the guys a break and don't ask for a discount. They find it hard enough to keep going as it is.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Iain Popplewell

[Wheatley]

What does one do in such a situation? - ask for a discount which a fair few on this thread seem to see as rude

Not on this occasion, the online price indicates that the retailer is open to discounting. But on this occasion I think I would follow The Snapper's principle and go somewhere else anyway.

 

What's cheeky is asking a small retailer to match someone else's online price.

[BoD]

Remember, nobody needs a model train.

I thought your post quite sensible and then you lost the plot completely.

[Classsix T]

I thought your post quite sensible and then you lost the plot completely.

Ha! So...which model shops do Groupon then..?

 

Dons inadequate metallic skull protection. C6T.

[Chris M]

Maybe it only takes one shop to create an expectation. I'm interested in purchasing an e-bike. After asking at just a few shops I found I was being quoted the list price at one shop and then offered a discount straight away without any input from me. So, having had a discount offered at one shop I have found myself asking other shops what their best price is. I wouldn't have done that if one hadn't offered me a discount without being asked. Maybe it's the same in the model railway world. Once one model shop has offered a discount without being asked the buyer will expect the same at all shops. A good e-bike is of course considerably more than most locos.

.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Chris M