Hornby 2019 Modern Range........

[scottrains29]

I would really like Hornby to produce the class 313,314,315,507,508 type EMUs. The 314 units are about to get withdrawn and with no RTR model of these common types ever available, now would be an ideal time for Hornby to produce them. They would perfectly compliment the new class 86, 87 and 90 models.

 

I would also like a mk3 based unit eg 318,320 but would expect Bachmann would produce these as they share many similarities with the 150.

[MGR Hooper!]

 I think probably the biggest cost in producing a new model is research and tooling.  With the Class 87, the body shell dimensions are identical to the 86 as is the wheelbase and a lot of the details.  Hornby wouldn't, I imagine, use the same tools, but it would be a significant saving in manpower time to rework the existing CAD drawings to produce an 86/2 blueprint, especially as we're told that even laser-scanned imaging has to be reworked by human hand.  That would save on development cost.  If they commissioned a new set of machine tools, I would expect they might (if they had the foresight when commissioning the 87 tools) have negotiated a price for a set of tools for an 86 bodyshell at the same time based on the fact that the process of making a new tool would be virtually identical to the 87 - in effect, getting a discount based on the knowledge gained in tooling up for the 87.  That's why I think even with a financial headache Hornby almost certainly are planning an 86, a significant amount of the R&D cost has already been made on the 87 which probably can be easily shared with an 86/2.

 

As for the Heljan informed rumour, they gave a heavy hint that they are revisiting the 86 with a view to producing the AL6-86/0.  Now if Hornby follow form, I suspect first out of the blocks will be an 86/2 to replace their late 70's model.  They are sufficiently different to be entirely different markets and in any case the main market will be those who know their electrics.  Collectors by and large prefer pretty tea urns.  Jo and Janna Junior will gravitate to the Railroad range where the current ex-Margate 86 ought to end up as it's a nice model and still running with Freightliner.  If  Heljan and Hornby do model different variants then the market should be complemented, not going head to head, but even if they do end up competing, there were 100 Class 86s built and so many livery variations that each company could recoup their costings easily.

 

The same could be said of the Electrostar.  There is no market overlap with Bachmann's Desiro.  If you want a "modern electric unit" you will want one that suits your needs, I suggest the number of modellers, or even junior train set drivers, buying a modern multiple unit because they like it on whim are few.  You will want an Electrostar because it runs on the Western, or Southern, or South Eastern, or wherever your interest lies.  About the only places you see Class 359/450 Desiros and Electrostars running side by side are from Milton Keynes to Watford, and at Clapham, and Portsmouth.  If anything, the Electrostar has a greater number of model sale opportunities as it has a widespread use across the South East, from Kings Lynn to Brighton, and Kent to Bedford.  That's a lot of potential customers, and of course, if Hornby made the model, it would also have the opportunity to cash in on the "Nan and Grandad/Mum and Dad" buying junior a train they recognise as one they possibly go to town or work on, made by a brand the trust and know.

 

I do agree though if Hornby wanted to be brave and create a market segment of it's own, rather than playing catch up with Barwell, a Mk1 based OH EMU would be a good choice, and there might be some small cost savings could be had by using the 4-VEP mechanicals, plus they will have a good handle on the cost of producing say a Class 304 from their experiences with the Vep.  I just feel they are unlikely to do so in present circumstances unless they have already decided to do so and the project was too far gone to be paused.

 

As for the Class 120, I think the Vep has more to offer a Mk1 OHL EMU in terms of components than the DMU.  It would however give them a 64ft DMU underframe for other projects, who knows, a Class 116 could follow (and before anyone says anything, they are very different to the Bachmann 117 and the market could support both given the geographical spread of the units) assuming Hornby get back to a stronger financial position.

I don't disagree with your post, but just wanted to point out that very little can be done with Class 87 CAD, infact the only re-useable part will be the main chassis block, motor, bogie tower and wheels. Regarding the shape of the Class 86 and Class 87, the share a common silhouette. The CAD will still require extensive work to modify into a Class 86. Infact the common areas (silhouette) can actually be modeled in a jiffy by an experienced CAD artist. So I don't see CAD being re-used or modified. They'll most likely start from scratch.

 

Research wise again very little can be gained from the Class 87 with regards to a Class 86. Do we know if Hornby researched and measured up a Class 86? No, there's only a rumour from a person who blabs too much.

 

Heljan have publicly announced their intentions to re-tool their Class 86, I have my doubts about Hornby doing one now.

[bigP]

--

Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[gelboy45]

Bullied 4 Sub please.

[Ouroborus]

Producing EMU's is all well and good, but will they seller enough now and in the future. A few will buy because they need one, a few will buy for a novelty, a few will be collectors. And after that? Enough for a second run?

 

If I were them I'd keep clear of new tooling and batter the hell out of their tooling for the HST, class 60 and maybe class 56 with every livery they could (so to speak). Build up the cash with minimal costs.

 

If you insist on new tooling (I'm not so sure), I think the answer for what to do is on the Bachmann thread - 37s and 47s. They just keep selling.

[ndg910]

I don’t model modern but I think Hornby are in the same predicament as they are having with steam. They are quite literally running out of prototypes. Yes there are new multiple units coming on stream but from new they have few livery or formation variations and many don’t have the wow factor of a new high speed train. Hornby are known for their train sets with Flying Scotsman, Mallard, an HST or Eurostar in but an Electrostar in a SE England livery is no good for kids in the north. Yes there are modellers and collectors who want something niche but all manufacturers have to extract their return from the tooling. Like many have said, class 08, 20, 37, 47, 50, 55, 60, 66, 87, 90 and 91 will ensure maximum livery options, keep things modern, satisfy the modellers but also be something the masses recognise.

 

Hornby and all other manufacturers have to strike a fine balance and it’s important the modern image is kept up to date to attract the new modellers as the more veteran modellers begin to decline.

 

I don’t envy the person making the decisions for new tooling but there is a danger of producing a pup that won’t sell and so dragging the manufacturer into the abyss. We all want that oddity in steam and diesel but I for one am realistic that I might have to build a kit or go without. There are obvious diamonds to be found and the 2EPB/4EPB and 4SUB and other first generation units like the Class 120 might be realistic to cross the steam:modern divide and this is where research and the wish list poll will help.

 

Good luck Hornby, your new toolings are very welcome whether steam, diesel or electric and in the brave new world with a declining market share, I hope you can prosper and find that little gem.

[adb968008]

Bullied 4 Sub please.

Modelling the Beating up of some poor old sub might not be meet with everyones approval.

 

But a Bulleid 4sub might be nice.

Edited November 18, 2018 by adb968008

[mdvle]

Producing EMU's is all well and good, but will they seller enough now and in the future. A few will buy because they need one, a few will buy for a novelty, a few will be collectors. And after that? Enough for a second run?

The goal at this point for Hornby is to make money now, and it is not always simple how that works.

 

Second, third, etc. runs are certainly nice things to have with a model but they aren't always necessary.  Sometimes even just having a new model drive sales of your existing line can be enough to justify a new model.

 

Part of the point of developing a range of EMU's (whether by Hornby or by the competitors) is to increase sales of items like the class 87, any rolling stock that is appropriate, etc. for an overhead based layout much like how the first 3rd rail EMU helped to create the market/demand for subsequent models that ran in 3rd rail territory.

 

If I were them I'd keep clear of new tooling and batter the hell out of their tooling for the HST, class 60 and maybe class 56 with every livery they could (so to speak). Build up the cash with minimal costs.

Good way for Hornby to go out of business.

 

What happens if in 3 years the competitors, who have been tooling new models, have created newer and better versions of all those staples?

 

We know Hattons has more planned, and they have shaken things up by offering the class 66.  Bachmann is finally showing signs of working through their issues and delivering new high quality models.  Accurascale is announcing their first locomotive in a week, Rapido is announcing something soon, Dapol won't be standing still, Heljan will continue with new items, etc.  Add in the possibility of some of the other retailers or smaller companies announcing stuff and there is too much danger to Hornby to not continue with new tooling.

 

But perhaps most importantly it is new tooling that creates excitement for the Hornby brand both amongst us customers and with the all still important retailers.  It will be easier to convince retailers to order some of those reruns if they are order the exiting newly tooled product at the same time...

[Ouroborus]

The goal at this point for Hornby is to make money now, and it is not always simple how that works.

 

Second, third, etc. runs are certainly nice things to have with a model but they aren't always necessary.  Sometimes even just having a new model drive sales of your existing line can be enough to justify a new model.

 

Part of the point of developing a range of EMU's (whether by Hornby or by the competitors) is to increase sales of items like the class 87, any rolling stock that is appropriate, etc. for an overhead based layout much like how the first 3rd rail EMU helped to create the market/demand for subsequent models that ran in 3rd rail territory.

 

Good way for Hornby to go out of business.

 

What happens if in 3 years the competitors, who have been tooling new models, have created newer and better versions of all those staples?

 

We know Hattons has more planned, and they have shaken things up by offering the class 66.  Bachmann is finally showing signs of working through their issues and delivering new high quality models.  Accurascale is announcing their first locomotive in a week, Rapido is announcing something soon, Dapol won't be standing still, Heljan will continue with new items, etc.  Add in the possibility of some of the other retailers or smaller companies announcing stuff and there is too much danger to Hornby to not continue with new tooling.

 

But perhaps most importantly it is new tooling that creates excitement for the Hornby brand both amongst us customers and with the all still important retailers.  It will be easier to convince retailers to order some of those reruns if they are order the exiting newly tooled product at the same time...

 

I think you made my point better than me.  At the moment, Hornby need the money to come in.  Not in three years or five years, now.  They're losing money.  Put yourself in the shoes of an investor :  

 

​"So guv, we've got these models that wiped their own faces a few years ago.  We could stick some new liveries on them for peanuts and people will suck them up.  We can have them in the shops in a few months bringing money in"

 

OR

 

"So guv, everyones pretty much covered everything.  Someone on an internet page I was reading reckons that the Class 120 would be a good seller.  Its the best of what's left.  Its a bit of a niche but its just about the only thing left in any numbers.  It'll take four years for it to come to light and show any money"

 

Your point about Hattons et al waiting in the wings is spot on.  Why not make hay while the sun shines with these older models - its not like its costing them much.  If Hattons do a HST in a few years, so be it.  Hornby may as well get value from the tooling while they can.  Short termist? - Absolutely!!

[TravisM]

I seriously think that Hornby won’t go wrong by reissuing sorely missing models such as the HST Mk III trailer cars, Class 56, 60’s and the pair of Class 67’s in revised “royal” livery, maybe as a boxed set. Also the Class 31 in various liveries and then possibly offer as new models such as the Class 120 DMU and retooled Class 91 and Mk IV’s.

 

I think Hornby are onto a winner with their Railroad range for people who want to do their own upgrades and detailing or those on a limited budget but I think their “high end” models should be marketed something similar to Athearn with their Genesis range.

Edited November 18, 2018 by jools1959

[GordonC]

I think Hornby really need to avoid some of the more unusual livery choices like they seem to have gone for in previous years.

 

I'd suggest a BR Blue and large logo class 56s both of which have been released before but seem to have disappeared from shelves quickly and possibly even a Dutch one.

 

For class 60s, we've not seen a railfreight metals one yet

 

HST power cars could get a twin pack of buffered ones in intercity executive and swallow livery

 

Class 87 in intercity executive livery

 

A class 86 would be a good choice, as would a 120, but not likely to see products to release within a year or two

 

I'd wonder if they could use their class 153s to get back to a decent class 155

[TravisM]

I think Hornby really need to avoid some of the more unusual livery choices like they seem to have gone for in previous years.

I'd suggest a BR Blue and large logo class 56s both of which have been released before but seem to have disappeared from shelves quickly and possibly even a Dutch one.

For class 60s, we've not seen a railfreight metals one yet

HST power cars could get a twin pack of buffered ones in intercity executive and swallow livery

Class 87 in intercity executive livery

A class 86 would be a good choice, as would a 120, but not likely to see products to release within a year or two

I'd wonder if they could use their class 153s to get back to a decent class 155

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs but what I never understood why Hornby went head to head with DJ Models and Oxford with their Class 71 and Adams Radials. These are pretty much niche models unless Hornby were well into production with theirs when the other two announced theirs.

 

Surely duplicated niche models from two different manufacturers is possibly never a great idea financially.

[Mark Saunders]

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs but what I never understood why Hornby went head to head with DJ Models and Oxford with their Class 71 and Adams Radials. These are pretty much niche models unless Hornby were well into production with theirs when the other two announced theirs.

 

Surely duplicated niche models from two different manufacturers is possibly never a great idea financially.

 

The duplication of models is nothing new but the research and costs involved mean that it is cheaper to continue than abandon the project!

 

The same does not apply with the automotive sector with each manufacturer doing their own take on the same thing!

 

Mark Saunders

[brushman47544]

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs

 

But Heljan only announced theirs, and not as far as I am aware as a definitive announcement, a few months ago. If Hornby was going to announce one in January for 2019, they will have been working on it for some considerable time and well before the Heljan announcement, so probably well past the point of no return (cutting metal).

Edited November 19, 2018 by brushman47544

[mdvle]

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs but what I never understood why Hornby went head to head with DJ Models and Oxford with their Class 71 and Adams Radials. These are pretty much niche models unless Hornby were well into production with theirs when the other two announced theirs.

 

Surely duplicated niche models from two different manufacturers is possibly never a great idea financially.

 

A lot depends not just on Hornby but respectively  DJM/Oxford and where the respective projects where.

 

If they were just in research or even CAD then pausing / walking away could have been a viable strategy.  But once your into tooling you are spending the big money, at which point the goal becomes minimizing the losses which will usually mean going ahead.

 

It's also possible, given that it was both several management changes at Hornby ago and a different UK market (there weren't as many producers) that it was an attempt by Hornby to throw its weight around and discourage any more fragmentation/competition of the UK market.  Or maybe just arrogance, in the belief that they were Hornby and thus only they would get any sales...

[mdvle]

I think you made my point better than me.  At the moment, Hornby need the money to come in.  Not in three years or five years, now.  They're losing money.  Put yourself in the shoes of an investor :  

 

​"So guv, we've got these models that wiped their own faces a few years ago.  We could stick some new liveries on them for peanuts and people will suck them up.  We can have them in the shops in a few months bringing money in"

 

OR

 

"So guv, everyones pretty much covered everything.  Someone on an internet page I was reading reckons that the Class 120 would be a good seller.  Its the best of what's left.  Its a bit of a niche but its just about the only thing left in any numbers.  It'll take four years for it to come to light and show any money"

 

Your point about Hattons et al waiting in the wings is spot on.  Why not make hay while the sun shines with these older models - its not like its costing them much.  If Hattons do a HST in a few years, so be it.  Hornby may as well get value from the tooling while they can.  Short termist? - Absolutely!!

 

There are two bigger problems with your example, and a minor one.

 

First, yes those reruns will be a lot of relative profit, but they don't sell in the same numbers that a new model does.  Thus while reruns are a welcome source of money they aren't a fountain of money.

 

Second, your class 120 example is entirely wrong.  Anything Hornby announce in the next couple of months will already have been in development for a couple of years, and Hornby may already be spending / have spent money on the tooling.  If Hornby wanted to do an entirely rerun announcement  in January that decision would have been made 2 years ago.  In other words, if Hornby did announce a class 120 in January it would already be 2 years into is process and so the story to the investor would be more along the line of "and we are progressing nicely a new class 120, which public polls show will be popular with customers, and it should be on the market in 12 months", with a perhaps "by the way, we have already spent around $200,000 in research and tooling and so stopping now would be a financial mistake".

 

The minor issue, which is a problem Hornby appear to be having either for new models or reruns, is you have to be able to get the production out of a factory and into customers hands in the first place.

[dave parker]

Hornby already do a brcw 110 but the brcw 104 was more widespread and can be done in green , blue , bluegrey and nse just needs new window arrangement on the cab and a motor upgrade ie dcc ready

Dave

 

From a diesel and electric point of view I cant see too much coming.

 

I think there will be a lot of re-liveries, but some highly detailed models are also creeping up in costs too so they would need to be popular.

 

I think you should expect Colas class 60 and 56

For DB I think a Limby 66 and 59 might make an appearance, with Hornby 60.

 

The Limby 156 might make a return given the costs of the Realtrack 156 (excellent thought that its).

 

For class 31 I can see a Dutch liveried with headcode box (but Ive been saying that for years) alongside EWS and Mainline Blue.

 

Possible new model being a DMU. 110 would be my guess, or even just upgrade to DCC.

l

[GordonC]

A class 104 would take a bit more than that, 104s would need the window frames taking off the 110 bodysides. It's possibly questionable how much would be saved compared to starting from scratch

[rob D2]

Got a response from Hornby abou the 60.

 

They will look into the possibility of doing a DB red one

[MGR Hooper!]

Got a response from Hornby abou the 60.

 

They will look into the possibility of doing a DB red one

Do hopefully 2020 then? Fingers crossed.

[petemster]

.

 

Is this a blue/grey Mk2 TSO ? ---  flickr : 87013 John O'Gaunt eases effortlessly past Lowgill 

 

Some of the previous discussion here has related to Hornby's R4806 Mk2D TSO which only has

seven windows instead of the normal eight - but it was also pointed out that some 7-window

1st Class coaches had in fact been declassified to 2nd Class.

And it was suggested that this didn't happen until after they had been repainted into IC colours.

 

When searching flickr for Rail-blue  Class 87s I came across a picture that shows a train with a

leading coach that seems to me to be a Mk2 TSO with seven windows.

 

Sorry I can't upload the photo here, but I find I can access it by keying in  the following search term :

 

87013 John O'Gaunt eases effortlessly past Lowgill

 

The picture itself is really excellent and it belongs to a chap who calls himself simply 'John'.

 

Anyway, can any of the coaching stock experts check out the picture and give us an opinion?

 

Thanks.

 

Pete M.

[GordonC]

.

 

Is this a blue/grey Mk2 TSO ? ---  flickr : 87013 John O'Gaunt eases effortlessly past Lowgill 

 

Some of the previous discussion here has related to Hornby's R4806 Mk2D TSO which only has

seven windows instead of the normal eight - but it was also pointed out that some 7-window

1st Class coaches had in fact been declassified to 2nd Class.

And it was suggested that this didn't happen until after they had been repainted into IC colours.

 

When searching flickr for Rail-blue  Class 87s I came across a picture that shows a train with a

leading coach that seems to me to be a Mk2 TSO with seven windows.

 

Sorry I can't upload the photo here, but I find I can access it by keying in  the following search term :

 

87013 John O'Gaunt eases effortlessly past Lowgill

 

The picture itself is really excellent and it belongs to a chap who calls himself simply 'John'.

 

Anyway, can any of the coaching stock experts check out the picture and give us an opinion?

 

Thanks.

 

Pete M.

 

Yes that looks like a declassified FO, there was some of them

[dogbox321]

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs but what I never understood why Hornby went head to head with DJ Models and Oxford with their Class 71 and Adams Radials. These are pretty much niche models unless Hornby were well into production with theirs when the other two announced theirs.

 

Surely duplicated niche models from two different manufacturers is possibly never a great idea financially.

 

I think based on the Class 87, then if Hornby have been working on an Class 86, then if they can get theirs out it would be a sure winner.  Many Heljan models, that have been previously released have accuracy flaws somewhere!  My money would go on a Hornby one!  They just need to sort out the none working pantograph issues....

 

Regards,

 

C.

[dogbox321]

Dismissing Hornby’s financial woes, that I’d love to see Hornby do is reissue their HST trailer cars for EMT, Virgin East Coast and now LNER, NR’s Measurement Train as there is a glut of Class 43 power cars which to dealers frustration are just keeping their shelves warm.

 

 

 

The problem with HST's is - how does a manufacturer "guess" how many coaches people will want.  Some run 4 coaches, some may run upto 7-8, and others may just want the powercars in a cabinet.  How can Hornby produce the correct amount, with those variables?  Its not really viable to do production runs, to cater for a few folks who miss out, at the possible cost of having a few hundred coaches left over.  Only thing to do with HST's is to get your powercar and coach requirements when they come out!  He who hesitates........ 

 

On the subject of HST's - I am sure a 43002/43185 pack would sell well, and how about a FGW/GWR Hybrid pack with 43093, and say 43027 in FGW (Queens 90th) livery..... Sure with the recent runs of FGW and GWR Coaches, many people could use them!  Likewise - with the £10 difference in retail price for standard/TTS.  They may as well be done with TTS, to add value!  (People could either use the TTS, or sell it off!)

 

Regards,

 

C.

[wombatofludham]

Hornby producing a Class 86 is highly unlikely as Heljan have stated that they plan to retool theirs but what I never understood why Hornby went head to head with DJ Models and Oxford with their Class 71 and Adams Radials. These are pretty much niche models unless Hornby were well into production with theirs when the other two announced theirs.

 

Surely duplicated niche models from two different manufacturers is possibly never a great idea financially.

 

All Heljan have committed to is the AL6-86/0.  Hornby could still blag the 86/2 and by sticking the 87 chassis under it the 86/1 as well.

 

And before others start piling in saying they are the same, they are not.  Different liveries for a start, the 86/0 never carried Inter City, RES, Executive or Parcels, and the 86/2 never carried early rail blue with half yellow ends and ferret and dartboard cast logos (the so called "retro" liveries are not the same).  Most 86/2s were named, whilst no 86/0 were.  Completely different market opportunities.  Even clueless collectors after the latest shiny new thing they haven't any knowledge of will be able to tell the difference between the Heljan offer and any Hornby Class 86/2.

 

In any case, neither model will appeal to the "Ooh, that's nice, I'll get one even though I model the Little Fartingbury and Miss Marpleshire Joint Railway as running on the 23 March 1896 at 11.27am" butterfly-mind modeller as they tend to go for pretty tea urns and freak one off kettles.  AC electrics will sell mainly to those who know and dare I say it, appreciate the differences between an AL6 and an 86/2 and therefore even if Hornby do announce an 86/2 it will only grow the market.  These will be high end models aimed at people who know what they are being offered. Certainly I will be in the market for half a dozen AL6s from Heljan and at least that number of 86/2 and 86/1s if Hornby do decide to make them.  They are completely complimentary, not competing, and I suspect that is probably why Heljan made the sensible decision to go down the AL6 route in anticipation of an 86/1 and 2 from Hornby.