21T Mineral Wagons

[rogirbu]

Hornby has produced a BR 21T mineral wagon - R6161 - which has the usual diagonal white stripe but placed at the non-opening end of the wagon.

I was under the impression that this diagonal stripe was specifically to indicate the wagon end door.

Has Hornby just got it wrong or is there some other reason?

 

Also, can anyone tell me the significance of the letter K at the end of the running number.

Thanks in advance

Roger

[John M Upton]

R6161 is well known for this mistake, you are correct that the white diagonal stripe is supposed to be at the door end to mark which end the door is but Hornby made a balls up on one batch.

 

Not sure about the K suffix on the number though.

[lanchester]

R6161 is well known for this mistake, you are correct that the white diagonal stripe is supposed to be at the door end to mark which end the door is but Hornby made a balls up on one batch.

 

Not sure about the K suffix on the number though.

Just curious but is there any evidence that this sort of balls up ever occurred in real life? I don't imagine wagon painters were the best paid, skilled or supervised of railway workers and one end of a wagon looks much like another from the side, at the end of a shift. And after all, there are I believe verified accounts of much more valuable assets such as locomotives being renumbered erroneously and so forth. 

[mike hughes]

Thought they were unfitted as well? I believe the K is to denote 21t

 

Michael

[JeremyC]

According to David Larkin's Working Wagons the K suffix was introduced circa 1966 to indicate to NCB staff that it was a 21T wagon

[Fat Controller]

It's used the body and underframe of a riveted, probably ex-PO wagon, and then reliveried it using a photo of an early 1960s fitted wagon. Bit of a dog's breakfast, really. There used to be c**k-ups with wagon numbering, as I found when I had to do a daily wagon census; usually, it was because of a mis-read number on the solebar plate, but I did uncover a 16-tonner lettered as per an ex-LMS coach in Departmental Service.

[Phil Bullock]

IIRC wasnt there something about the bodies being put on rebuilt wagons the wrong way round - wasnt it an issue around the relative positions of the opening end and the brake lever?

 

Phil

[Clive Mortimore]

IIRC wasnt there something about the bodies being put on rebuilt wagons the wrong way round - wasnt it an issue around the relative positions of the opening end and the brake lever?

 

Phil

Hi Phil

 

I think that relates to the 16 tonners when they were rebodied, If the wagon went into works backwards the new body went on the wrong way round because they didn't turn the chassis round. It made no difference to the railways it just means that us muddlers need to put some bodies on the the opposite way if we are building a batch of rebodied 16 tonners.

[hmrspaul]

About the only thing right about this is the colour, as the number is for, what became later, an MDV with a vacuum brake, two doors, but welded with drop doors over the side doors. The completely incorrect diagonal stripe is a minor problem with this. And I am impressed it aligns with where the top of the door would be, and not to the top corner as is often mistakenly applied - even in a very old MRJ

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmdv

 

But don't overlook BR used freight stock red for ALL revenue wagons for a period in the mid 1960s, so an unfitted ex Private Trader - which is what this more accurately represents - could be this colour but with a P number

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

It's used the body and underframe of a riveted, probably ex-PO wagon, and then reliveried it using a photo of an early 1960s fitted wagon. Bit of a dog's breakfast, really. There used to be c**k-ups with wagon numbering, as I found when I had to do a daily wagon census; usually, it was because of a mis-read number on the solebar plate, but I did uncover a 16-tonner lettered as per an ex-LMS coach in Departmental Service.

 

Not at all unusual for the painted number to be different from the number on the cast plate.  all sorts of errors were found during TOPS cutovers when a full list of wagons was recorded siding-by-siding throughout BR over the course of a year or so.   The best example was a wagon which had four different numbers not only did the painted numbers differ from the plate (not too unusual) but they differed from each other (which had been noted on other wagons) but the wagon also had two different plated numbers (again not unique but the plated numbers usually agreed with one of the plates.

[Southernman46]

There is a splendid kit of the BR VB B31xxxx version produced by Slimrails that virtually falls together .......................

 

http://www.slimrails.co.uk/index.html

[hmrspaul]

There is a splendid kit of the BR VB B31xxxx version produced by Slimrails that virtually falls together .......................

 

http://www.slimrails.co.uk/index.html

Interesting to learn where the Chivers range went. BUT why does he suggest the MDV as modelled by them was ever grey??

 

Paul

[rogirbu]

Thanks to all who replied. I learn a bit more each day!.

Roger

[Wickham Green]

Interesting to learn where the Chivers range went. BUT why does he suggest the MDV as modelled by them was ever grey??

 

Paul

a)  They always were in ( monochrome ) photos.

b)  That's the only colour plastic he had in stock.

[Covkid]

On 01/10/2018 at 17:22, hmrspaul said:

Interesting to learn where the Chivers range went. BUT why does he suggest the MDV as modelled by them was ever grey??

 

Paul

Three years later - I guess "Slimrails" is part of the Chivers family and is now marketed by Five79. 

 

I was browsing this thread in an attempt to decide what to do with by Hornby 21 tonner. Probaby slap some grey on it with a Parkside unfitted chassis maybe.

[Fat Controller]

52 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Three years later - I guess "Slimrails" is part of the Chivers family and is now marketed by Five79. 

 

I was browsing this thread in an attempt to decide what to do with by Hornby 21 tonner. Probaby slap some grey on it with a Parkside unfitted chassis maybe.

You could find another, cut the end door off one, and the fixed end off the other. Then refix the ends so you have one with two end doors and the other with none. Both configurations existed. If you were really adventurous, you could file the side doors off the one with two end-doors to represent one of the thirty or so that had been built for Swansea Corporation....

[doilum]

On 30/09/2018 at 18:02, lanchester said:

Just curious but is there any evidence that this sort of balls up ever occurred in real life? I don't imagine wagon painters were the best paid, skilled or supervised of railway workers and one end of a wagon looks much like another from the side, at the end of a shift. And after all, there are I believe verified accounts of much more valuable assets such as locomotives being renumbered erroneously and so forth. 

Very unlikely. A poor apprentice making this mistake would attain legendary status in the cruel world of mickey taking.  The poor lad would have been made to rectify the error in his own time or be reassigned to rust scraping or similar unpleasant task.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

Very unlikely. A poor apprentice making this mistake would attain legendary status in the cruel world of mickey taking.  The poor lad would have been made to rectify the error in his own time or be reassigned to rust scraping or similar unpleasant task.

I saw many examples of mis-numbered wagons (mainly 16-tonners) when I did a daily census of wagons on site on a small BSC site in the summer of 1974; the most extreme being one carrying an LMR Departmental Coaching Stock Number....

There is an apocryphal story of an Shildon apprentice being given a sheet of paper with numbers on it, and being told to letter the line of wagons outside. He duly did one side, then stopped for lunch. He re-started where he had stopped, but on the other side of the line.... Only one wagon bore the correct number on both sides.

There was a whole Lot of BR air-braked vans given the wrong number series by the Rolling Stock Library; rather than 2xxxxx, the were allocated 21xxxx.

[kevinlms]

14 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I saw many examples of mis-numbered wagons (mainly 16-tonners) when I did a daily census of wagons on site on a small BSC site in the summer of 1974; the most extreme being one carrying an LMR Departmental Coaching Stock Number....

There is an apocryphal story of an Shildon apprentice being given a sheet of paper with numbers on it, and being told to letter the line of wagons outside. He duly did one side, then stopped for lunch. He re-started where he had stopped, but on the other side of the line.... Only one wagon bore the correct number on both sides.

There was a whole Lot of BR air-braked vans given the wrong number series by the Rolling Stock Library; rather than 2xxxxx, the were allocated 21xxxx.

So there was an odd number of wagons to number! Saved him fixing up one.

[18B]

On 30/09/2018 at 18:11, JeremyC said:

According to David Larkin's Working Wagons the K suffix was introduced circa 1966 to indicate to NCB staff that it was a 21T wagon

 

why a K though and not just a 21T on the wagon????

[Aire Head]

46 minutes ago, 18B said:

 

why a K though and not just a 21T on the wagon????

 

Your assuming NCB staff can read numbers 

 

On a serious note there is a 21T marked on the wagon just above the number as per standard so I'm just as mystified as you are!

[Wickham Green too]

Something to do with writing down a list of numbers p'raps ?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Something to do with writing down a list of numbers p'raps ?

Possibly an aid to those in loading screens or even weighbridges working off a list of wagon numbers rather than looking at the wagons?   The full number would also show up on the consignment note and the copy going to the BR (and NCB) accounts office.

[Mark Saunders]

6 hours ago, 18B said:

 

why a K though and not just a 21T on the wagon????

It’s for account purposes a suffix K indicating 21 ton wagon so the office clerks doing demurrage and likewise N for 24.5 ton.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Mark Saunders
Memory failure

[hmrspaul]

33 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

It’s for account purposes a suffix K indicating 21 ton wagon so the office clerks doing demurrage and likewise O for 24.5 ton.

Mark

I think you mean N, an O would be a bit of a problem!  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralmeo/ed362e86

 

K also appeared on the 21ton hoppers and N on the 24.5ton hoppers.

 

My photos show few of the numbers with these suffix, quite a number have it painted out. It doesn't seem to have been popular once the TOPS system became active - although it can be seen on a few of my later photos. 

 

Paul