Dapol O Gauge Stroudley 4 Wheel Coaches

[PaulRhB]

Well they certainly look good in the photos and I’m looking forward to some. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

I agree they do look very nice looking samples.

 

I can't comment on shape or dimensions but one minor detail I noticed is the look of the door lock handles. They look very flat being moulded on next to the excellent wire grab handles. 

[Skinnylinny]

Those are some lovely looking shots, beautifully photographed. The bodyshells are nice!

Unfortunately there are a few things on the underframe that stick out quite a lot. The first is the diagonal strapping on the solebar here:

 

This was not installed until the underframe trussing and kingposts, to strengthen the underframe for the fitting of battery boxes with electric lighting. The strapping here was the washer plate for the diagonal trussing. Also, the spring mounting appears to be a bit off, with the springs supported on J hangers thus:

 

 

As built, and for many years afterwards, these carriages had much simpler wagon-style (I'm afraid I don't know the correct terminology) spring mountings, as can be seen in photographs as here:


The J hangers seem to have been copied from the Billinton 4-wheelers on the Isle of Wight, which of course are on completely new steel underframes  shortened from SR-era luggage vans. Just another example of the minefield of working with preserved stock!
 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

@Skinnylinny, refreshing to read someone not merely drooling but looking candidly at model and prototype. You know far more about Brighton carriages than me - I have barely skimmed the surface. But, from general "thinking about carriages" re. the Hattons ones, I suppose one has to ask, the condition at what date are these models intended to represent? (The probable answer is that the question hasn't been thought about.) The gas lighting clearly indicates not original condition - when were they converted to gas lighting? Did these carriages retain the simple suspension arrangement of bracket and pin throughout their careers? The Weddell magazine drawings I have show this, and states 12 leaves to the springs. The model follows that to the letter but not the spirit - the leaves are clearly too thick, as the whole spring is too deep. Is that any sort of LBSCR carriage axlebox; if so, what's its date? Those brake shoes look very odd but for all I know could be a LBSCR pattern. When built, there were no continuous brakes; only the carriages with brake compartments had brakes (by definition). Presumably they had been Westinghouse fitted by the 1890s. Are those bar-stool buffer heads appropriate to 1890s+ condition?

 

Is train alarm equipment modelled at one end, as appropriate for the 20th century? If not, there need to be rings on the gutter for the 1890s-style outside communication cord.

 

There is a book covering these carriages, which, if it is up to the standard of most modern rolling-stock monographs, surely answers all these questions and would surely have been the Dapol designers' first port of call?

Edited August 12, 2020 by Compound2632

[coeurdelyon]

Hi Sl,

Please bear in mind these are first shot samples and do not represent the final production models. The door handles are being made as separate parts and the solebar, and springs are from the final electric light versions. As noted in the catalogue page we are making many different designs from basically one set of toolings - The first productions will be oil lit with no brakes save for third brake carriage with hand brake only and spoked wheels, later we shall supply oil lit with  Westinghouse  air brakes to all carriages. Gas lit with operating linkage on the ends, very highly detailed underframe including twin gas tanks( see attached picture)  and finally electric lit with new solebars and battery boxes.

Thanks for your interest in these upcoming models, Regards to all Richard

[ianmaccormac]

Brilliant to see the correct 9 spoke wheels! Wonderful looking models!

[Skinnylinny]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Skinnylinny, refreshing to read someone not merely drooling but looking candidly at model and prototype. You know far more about Brighton carriages than me - I have barely skimmed the surface. But, from general "thinking about carriages" re. the Hattons ones, I suppose one has to ask, the condition at what date are these models intended to represent? (The probable answer is that the question hasn't been thought about.)

Having now seen @coeurdelyon's response, the underframe is meant to represent the electric-lit version (although presumably having the gas tanks fitted in place of the battery boxes for the photographs). The bodyshells didn't change much through their lives, with the main differences being the different types of lighting fitted. I will 

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The gas lighting clearly indicates not original condition - when were they converted to gas lighting? 

The Stroudley carriages carried a variety of lighting types over the years. Originally built with oil lamps. In 1883 three close-coupled suburban trains were fitted with the Stroudley-Houghton electric lighting system (with one generator per train, thus only suitable for fixed trains). In 1886, two were electrically lit by the Railway Electrical Contracting Co Ltd, and by the end of 1888 the LB&SCR had 15 electrically-lit set trains. Some of the Stroudley carriages sent to the Isle of Wight received Stone's generators, with axle-driven dynamos. 

In 1891 Billinton (Stroudley's successor) started introducing Pintsch oil-gas lighting, with 162 vehicles gas lit by mid-1892, and 1000 by the end of 1893.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Did these carriages retain the simple suspension arrangement of bracket and pin throughout their careers? The Weddell magazine drawings I have show this, and states 12 leaves to the springs. The model follows that to the letter but not the spirit - the leaves are clearly too thick, as the whole spring is too deep. Is that any sort of LBSCR carriage axlebox; if so, what's its date?

Later photographs showing Stroudley carriages in Stone's Electrically-Lit days do show the J hanger as per the Dapol chassis shown. Knowing now that the mock-up is using the chassis from that variant, I am happy to stand back say that they look plausible for that type. I can't find any reference to the use of heavier springs, but the springs do look rather chunky in the photographs, which would make sense with the added weight of the battery boxes and dynamo, 

The axlebox is a Marsh Type 7 axlebox, with a style of cover which is known to appear in a drawing of 1910, although I don't have a date for the introduction of that type of axlebox. Marsh was the  Locomotive, Carriage and Wagon Superintendent at Brighton from 1904-1911.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 Those brake shoes look very odd but for all I know could be a LBSCR pattern. When built, there were no continuous brakes; only the carriages with brake compartments had brakes (by definition). Presumably they had been Westinghouse fitted by the 1890s. Are those bar-stool buffer heads appropriate to 1890s+ condition?

The brake shoes I'll admit to not recognising - given this is using the electric tooling for the chassis, it's possible they are the type used on the Isle of Wight carriages, Otherwise, it looks like there are slots where there ought not to be slots but recesses, and the bits not cut out are what should be split pins holding the brake shoes to the hanger and the actuating bar.

The brake carriages are correctly shown by Dapol with 9-spoke wheels, while the non-brake-fitted ones had Mansells. In 1874-5 experiments were carried out to test several different brakes (the "Westinghouse Air Break", "Barker's break" (a hydraulic system using water pressure to apply the brakes and thus presumably not fail-safe) and the "Westinghouse vacuum patent break". Westinghouse (air) brakes started being fitted to locos and carriage stock in 1877, 6 years after the first carriages to Stroudley's design were introduced. In 1890 money was granted to fit the few remaining old unfitted carriages with Westinghouse brakes, after the 1899 Regulation of Railways Act.

The first design of Stroudley buffers didn't last fantastically long, although I don't have a date for when they were removed and replaced with slightly shorter ones (this covered in Vol. 3 of the book series which I don't currently have). They were replaced by a similarly-styled barstool-type buffer of which examples could still be seen (for a little while) post-grouping. The ones on the Dapol model here do appear to be the longer, earlier type but again, this might be a result of the combining of whatever parts are ready to produce a complete carriage for the photographs. Either way, the buffer housing looked much the same between the two types of buffer.
 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Is train alarm equipment modelled at one end, as appropriate for the 20th century? If not, there need to be rings on the gutter for the 1890s-style outside communication cord.

The LB&SCR actually used an electric communication bell system, the Stroudley-Rusbridge electrical communication system, with a bell-pull knob in each compartment. This rang a bell in the guard's compartment and on the locomotive footplate. The guard and footplate staff had their own switches to allow them to communicate using single-stroke bell codes, while the passenger alarm was a continuous ringing. As such, no gutter rings required!

All of these answers are from the book mentioned, which is an excellent source of information, on a par with the Weddell books for LSWR stock. 

Based on @coeurdelyon's post above, I will happily retract my complaints about accuracy of fitted details (with the possible caveat of the brake shoes!). These are looking very nice and I look forward to seeing the earlier-condition versions!

[Compound2632]

@Skinnylinny, thorough response - thanks. My limited knowledge of things south of the river is once more exposed!

[TrainMan2001]

Wow, these look very nice! Is there any chance of them being shrunken to OO/N Gauge?

[coeurdelyon]

Hi Sl,

Many thanks for your notes, and agreed both the LBSC books have a mine of information which we used plus help from the LBSC circle. The brake shoes are currently being adjusted, and I have just received a sample of an oil lit mainline Brake 3rd, albeit body details are missing being only a sample to show the brake rigging, original axlebox and springs plus oil lamp tops. Also a picture of the Isle of Wight carriage body showing correct solebar with later axlebox/spring detail and panelled guards ducket. This is a later production, next we are preparing livery sheets for the oil lit carriages, which will look lovely with an IEG Terrier. Regards to all Richard

[Compound2632]

@coeurdelyon, looking good - apologies for my initial briskness. I like the way the ventilators actually provide ventilation!

Edited August 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[meatloaf]

The pricing has been revealed by hattons

 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=868

 

[norman]

Another big coincidence with Hattons and Tower again offering the same discounted price.  I thought there was supposed to be competition and no collusion on pricing.

 

[Skinnylinny]

Both shops appear to have gone for exactly 15% discount off RRP. Nothing all that unusual about that - it's a fairly standard discount amount to offer on new releases. 

[PaulRhB]

 

 

3 hours ago, norman said:.  I thought there was supposed to be competition and no collusion on pricing.

.  I thought there was supposed to be competition and no collusion on pricing.

 

It’s not collusion to match another outlets price,  it’s just good business! If you decide to undercut further then it eats into the profit, as both shops have loyal customer bases it’s just making sure they don’t go elsewhere rather than aggressively trying to rob others of trade. You’ll find most major stores do exactly the same and those that are advertising better prices are often just 4p cheaper at 95 rather than 99p! 

so it may well just be a 

3 hours ago, norman said:

 coincidence

 

[Nile]

I think all (or nearly all) of the main manufacturers impose a discount limit on new items, in this case it's 15%. It's meant to protect the small shops from the big box shifters.

[norman]

Nile, imposing a discount limit is I believe illegal, no it must just be a convenient coincidence that favours the retailer but disadvantages the consumer.

Paul, surely It's good business sense to offer reduced prices in order to attract more customers and sell more product or offer a better service in some way to achieve the same.

[Nile]

Some relevant posts you must have missed:

 

[norman]

Yes I have seen similar previously for Heljan etc but if there were any hard evidence then it could be used against them because it is illegal under consumer law.  Up until about 3-4 yeras ago there were different prices albeit small but it did look as though there was a differential.

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, norman said:

Nile, imposing a discount limit is I believe illegal, no it must just be a convenient coincidence that favours the retailer but disadvantages the consumer.

Paul, surely It's good business sense to offer reduced prices in order to attract more customers and sell more product or offer a better service in some way to achieve the same.

There are far more subtle ways of legally suggesting you don’t trample the other shops. They can suggest an acceptable discount rather than impose it and there are two fully legal ways of supporting it. 
When people have suggested it’s illegal in the past and said there should be legal action I’ve pointed out that hitting them with legal fees means the prices will go up to compensate! 
There’s a fine line between supporting smaller retailers which are so important to the hobby and dropping into a discounting war like we’ve seen with supermarkets. Ultimately the suppliers / manufacturers get squeezed until they go bust if hit by recession or something like Covid! 
There’s a balance between pure capitalism with a minority benefitting and paying a bit more and keeping a wider group of manufacturer and shop workers in a job through hard times like we are currently in. 
Ultimately you can create near monopolies like Apple & Microsoft who can charge massive markups and force you to into associated purchases  as their system is unique. Government has had to interfere with charging leads because it got so out of hand and do you really want a situation where you are forced to update your model every few years because it’s no longer compatible with new ones?  
Knowing a few retailers and how tight their margins are they have no wish to enter a discount war because they know they can’t afford it so matching the others works well for them in keeping competitive. 
 

[Dava]

Let's remember that Dapol have invested in the capacity to manufacture these coaches (and their wagons) in the UK at Chirk. Whilst the moulds are made in China, they have the ability to produce the wide range, small batches and quick turnround from the UK. 

 

I'm personally very happy to pay a bit more for these really excellent coaches being made in Wales, as we find out more about the working conditions and human rights practices in China.

 

Dava

[bingley hall]

On 14/08/2020 at 17:11, norman said:

Nile, imposing a discount limit is I believe illegal, no it must just be a convenient coincidence that favours the retailer but disadvantages the consumer.

Paul, surely It's good business sense to offer reduced prices in order to attract more customers and sell more product or offer a better service in some way to achieve the same.

 

Just put 'em in the slammer and have done with it 

[rembrow]

On 14/08/2020 at 08:41, norman said:

Nile, imposing a discount limit is I believe illegal, no it must just be a convenient coincidence that favours the retailer but disadvantages the consumer.

Paul, surely It's good business sense to offer reduced prices in order to attract more customers and sell more product or offer a better service in some way to achieve the same.

The UK does have legislation on pricing to meet it's EC legislation requirements. Whether this will change when the UK completes the EC withdrawal transition period is like many things -uncertain. The current legislation makes it illegal for the supplier to set a fixed or a minimum retail price by it's customers (retailers), however there are a couple of allowances. One is where a supplier is actively marketing a new product , where the supplier can set a minimum retail price for a 'limited period of time.' This is to ensure that a retailer doesn't grab the market on a new product by aggressive low pricing. It's this allowance that the model railway suppliers are using, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and Hornby all use it, most at 15% below their 'recommended retail price', Hornby is 10%, but only on 'new' products, which they all interpret as both first releases of newly tooled items and releases in new liveries or running numbers. They all apply this for a period of time after release, about 6-8 weeks. 

Some mail order retailers offer free p&p during this period so they can lower the overall price.

Edited August 15, 2020 by rembrow

[steam-driven boy]

Hi,

I've just had the latest Dapol Collectors Club newsletter brought by postie, containing an order form for the club exclusive 'Trilogy' of coaches:

Oil lit mahogany 3rd brake numbers 810 and 801 and composite number 212.

Available as; no light bars fitted / DCC Ready light bars fitted / DCC light bars fitted.

No further update on release.

 

Regards, Gerry.

[fezza]

On 15/08/2020 at 12:21, rembrow said:

The UK does have legislation on pricing to meet it's EC legislation requirements. Whether this will change when the UK completes the EC withdrawal transition period is like many things -uncertain. The current legislation makes it illegal for the supplier to set a fixed or a minimum retail price by it's customers (retailers), however there are a couple of allowances. One is where a supplier is actively marketing a new product , where the supplier can set a minimum retail price for a 'limited period of time.' This is to ensure that a retailer doesn't grab the market on a new product by aggressive low pricing. It's this allowance that the model railway suppliers are using, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and Hornby all use it, most at 15% below their 'recommended retail price', Hornby is 10%, but only on 'new' products, which they all interpret as both first releases of newly tooled items and releases in new liveries or running numbers. They all apply this for a period of time after release, about 6-8 weeks. 

Some mail order retailers offer free p&p during this period so they can lower the overall price.

 

That is my understanding too. 

 

In another industry, I've certainly heard of examples of manufacturers/ wholesalers refusing to supply retailers if they cut prices beyond certain limits. This is almost certainly illegal but consumer protection is quite weak in the UK and really relies on aggrieved retailers bringing cases. 

 

The long periods of "limited discounting" that we see in our business do seem legally questionable. The legislation is meant to protect product lines in the initial stage of marketing and not be a form of price support for the retail shelf life of the product (in our case limited run popular models  can sell out within three or four weeks).