WTTs for Welsh Valleys

[chesterfield]

I am looking for a source of WTTs for the Welsh Valleys -prewar if possible any pre BR would do .

[Kris]

eBay is a good place to look, alternatively try looking at preserved railways as they sometimes have old WTT's, though not as old as you are looking for. 

[br2975]

I've obtained South Wales related WTTs from the following, in the past;

(But my chosen era is post 1948)

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http://www.stewartblencowe.co.uk/

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https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/wtt/wtt.php

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Brian R

Edited October 2, 2018 by br2975

[John_Miles]

Welsh Railways Research Circle? They have an archive at Rhiwderin near Newport. If you look at their website there are contact details.

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549

[Kris]

Downloadable western WTTs here, anything of use ?

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553

 

Never seen that site before, however there was a single wtt that was very interesting to me. 

[chesterfield]

Never seen that site before, however there was a single wtt that was very interesting to me. 

Thank you All.

I have found a 1946 WTT which I think will fill the bill.

We had a presentation at our BRMA convention in Sydney last weekend on timetables and it sparked my interest in exploring what was available on line.

I do appreciate all your help.

[br2975]

 

We had a presentation at our BRMA convention in Sydney last weekend on timetables and it sparked my interest in exploring what was available on line.

 

 

I have a number of WTTs, mainly related to South & West Wales and the South Wales main line, and they are a constant source of entertainment and enjoyment.

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They should carry a 'warning' that they can become addictive.

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Brian R

[chesterfield]

I have a number of WTTs, mainly related to South & West Wales and the South Wales main line, and they are a constant source of entertainment and enjoyment.

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They should carry a 'warning' that they can become addictive.

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Brian R

Additive? you said it.

Initial take is that there were few coal trains as such scheduled in 1949 - bit surprising - I am use to 50-60 waggon trains in the Hunter Valley in NSW  the equivalent of Wales in 1913

[The Stationmaster]

Additive? you said it.

Initial take is that there were few coal trains as such scheduled in 1949 - bit surprising - I am use to 50-60 waggon trains in the Hunter Valley in NSW  the equivalent of Wales in 1913

 

Many of them were probably not in the WTT, especially as most collieries were served by trip workings which weren't listed in the WTT.

[br2975]

For many years, "Trip Booklets" were published, outlining local "trip workings" which due to their somewhat flexible nature, may, or may not feature in WTTs.

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Extracts of the Cardiff Division booklet for trip workings, commencing 3rd. February, 1964 are attached.

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They give the obvious details of times and days worked, starting points, calling points, which depot was responsible for the turn (e.g. most Coke Ovens  turns employed Abercynon locos) and the 'turn number'.

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South Wales trip workings could miss out certain legs of the turn if there was no traffic on offer at a certain loading point.

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These booklets appear to have ceased (locally) at the very end of the 1960s.

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Brian R

[chesterfield]

For many years, "Trip Booklets" were published, outlining local "trip workings" which due to their somewhat flexible nature, may, or may not feature in WTTs.

.

Extracts of the Cardiff Division booklet for trip workings, commencing 3rd. February, 1964 are attached.

.

They give the obvious details of times and days worked, starting points, calling points, which depot was responsible for the turn (e.g. most Coke Ovens  turns employed Abercynon locos) and the 'turn number'.

.

South Wales trip workings could miss out certain legs of the turn if there was no traffic on offer at a certain loading point.

.

These booklets appear to have ceased (locally) at the very end of the 1960s.

.

Brian R

Made my day - the light dawns- thank you very much

[br2975]

Made my day - the light dawns- thank you very much

 

But, we have yet to start on that most South Walian of railway practices, the " TARGET " or  Trip As Required Goods Engine Turn

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You can't really model 'the valleys' in steam days without your locos carrying either a circular or triangular TARGET plate.

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Brian R

[chrisf]

But, we have yet to start on that most South Walian of railway practices, the " TARGET " or  Trip As Required Goods Engine Turn

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You can't really model 'the valleys' in steam days without your locos carrying either a circular or triangular TARGET plate.

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Brian R

 

Absolutely true, Brian, but there are a couple of things to remember.   First, targets on passenger trains - and the fact that passenger trains bore them does make me query the acronym - started to die out with the advent of the dmus.  Second, the system was revised to coincide with the introduction of the alphanumerical reporting number system at the beginning of the Summer 1960 timetable.  Photographs taken after that date are often incorrectly captioned!

 

Chris 

[br2975]

Absolutely true, Brian, but there are a couple of things to remember.   

(i)......First, targets on passenger trains - and the fact that passenger trains bore them does make me query the acronym - started to die out with the advent of the dmus. 

(iiI)....Second, the system was revised to coincide with the introduction of the alphanumerical reporting number system at the beginning of the Summer 1960 timetable. 

(iii).....Photographs taken after that date are often incorrectly captioned!

 

 

With regards to Chris' previous post.........

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(i) I suspect that the plates displayed by passenger services, may have arisen out of duties/diagrams and possibly inspired by the initial freight TARGETs.   

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(ii) Correct, the 'Trip Booklet' - extracts of which I posted above, uses the alpha-numeric reporting numbers introduced in 1960, which, in theory replaced the preceding GWR inspired  BR(WR) TARGETs.

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(iii) Having skipped through several images by Bob Masterman of the dying days of South Wales Valleys steam, it is apparent that the TARGETs carried from 1963 - 1965 referred to the alpha-numeric reporting number, with the prefix dropped, e.g. 9H23 would be shown as H23, as most freights in the valleys were Class 9 at that time.

This is confirmed by one of Bob Masterman's images of a down coal train passing Llanbradach on 11th November, 1964 with a bunker first 5633 displaying "H23" which referred to "9H23" which was a Radyr - Ocean & Taff Merthyr Colliery - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings - Radyr  duty.

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The GWR / BR(WR)  'TARGETs' - (Chris F being far more learn'd in this department, than I) were a very enthralling subject in themselves, and would be 'de rigeur' on a model set in 'the valleys'.

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Brian R

[The Johnster]

I was not aware that passenger trains in general carried targets, but auto services certainly did at some sheds.  I cannot find photographic evidence of this at Tondu, my interest, though, and the list of Tondu targets Chris send me some time ago does not mention any passenger work.  

 

A very frequently photographed auto service, the 'St Fagan's Pullman' which did two return trips from Pontypridd to Clarence Road interspersed with fill in shuttles from Clarence Road to Penarth, carried the target 'Auto JB', denoting Abercynon (86J) Auto turn B.  Abercynon was responsible for quite a bit of auto work, the Pontypridd-Caerphilly-Machen, Porth-Maerdy, Abercynon-Aberdare, and Pontypridd-Ynysybwl as well as this one, so there were presumably A, C, D, and E turns as well.

 

All of which reminds me to get on with the 'U' targets for Cwmdimbath's coal trains, especially as the 56xx I bought recently on 'Bay came with a pair of discs.  Extractus digitus, Johnster!

[chrisf]

Having been accused of being learn'd ...

 

Don't worry, Johnster, I know of no passenger workings out of Tondu that carried target boards.  Those in the Cardiff Valleys certainly did and I've seen pics of locos working passenger trains in the Western Valley with target boards on the buffer beam.  The reason in the latter case may be that the loco divided its day between passenger and freight work.

 

There were many oddities, as one might expect given the pedigree of South Wales.  One of my favourites is the use of a front buffer of a dmu as a target board with the two letters applied with chalk.  All too often, sadly, locos which were supposed to carry a target board did not.  As regards Abercynon, JA was a 56xx turn, as were JC and JD.  JE was combined with another duty [JC I think] following an outbreak of economy around 1955 - it worked an overnight parcels job between Pontypridd and Swansea.  JF was the auto that ran between Pontypridd, Caerphilly and Machen.  Odddly, the loco was at the south end whereas it was at the north end on JB.  JC achieved a measure of renown as the last passenger turn to be worked by a Taff Vale Class A.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

Thank you Chris, once again you shine a light into the dark places...

 

I'd assumed that, because the photos of the St Fagan's Pullman (incidentally always with 6438) show a target that actually denotes as 'Auto JB', there was a non-auto JB turn as well, which would mean that the auto JB turn needed to be be defined separately as Auto.  But this suggests that practice at Abercynon was different to other depots, whose targets consisted of the shed's code letter (Abercynon was 86J, which is where the J in Auto JB comes from) and a number, while Abercynon used letters.  

[chrisf]

Abercynon was 88E.

 

Barry's auto turns were BA and BG, Ferndale's were FA and FB, Cathays had C Auto 1 or C Rail Motor 1 et seq.  Now you and I know that the last rail motor ran in 1935 or thereabouts so quite why the term was reintroduced when the format of the WTTs was changed around 1955 - "auto" had been used thitherto - is anyone's guess. 

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

Yes, I've wondered about this as well but assumed that the term had never gone out of use; once again you fill the holes in my erudition, Chris.  I have the 1960 WTT and this uses the term 'Rail Motor Train' for what I call an auto.  Another minor mystery is auto working to Abergwynfi, as you know the inspiration for Cwmdimbath.  There are a good number of photos of this station on Google Images, probably because the elevated road behind, the main road to the Afan Valley off the Bwlch from Treorchy, made a good viewpoint that suggested itself to passing photographers.  A significant number of these photos show trains formed of auto trailers hauled by non-auto fitted locos that had to run around the stock, which must have upset the timetable on this very busy single line branch.

 

I assume that there was a shortage of auto fitted locos to cover the work at Tondu in the 50s.  There seem to have been no auto fitted locos there until 1955, when 3 4575's turned up, and no more than 4 at any one time as far as I can tell, not a lot of wobble room to work autos on the Abergwynfi, Gilfach Goch, Nantymoel, and Ogmore Vale services.  64xx turned up in the early 60s for Porthcawl work.  One of the 64xx was 6438, star of the St Fagan's Pullman.

 

But I assume a lot, and have often been proved wrong!

[Penrhos1920]

Dragonwheel books have reprinted a pre war GWR service timetable for Pontypool rd to Neath, https://www.billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/selected-product.php?prod=gwr+service+timetables&pid=8852

 

The WRRC have GWR service timetable for the Cardiff valleys, summer 1924. It appears to have a list of all, except passenger, engine turns.

 

Targets were probably introduced by the Rhymney railway. The earliest photo that I've found is this 1914 photo of Rhymney loco 69 on a passenger train

 

Another early photo is of 30 on a mixed goods train

 

Surprisingly I've not found any photos of coal trains with targets and only one of a loco used for shunting around the docks.