Great Model Railway Challenge - Channel 5

[hayfield]

When on TV, many would want to be seem to be doing the best job possible & consider relying on point blades to be a bodge, not wanting to be seen doing it.

 

 

I agree with you that it is a known problem which takes seconds to resolve.

 

How many layouts go to shows leaving important things behind, loads I would suspect. Part of the learning curve 

[Hobby]

No doubt many of you have been watching this programme.  It was interesting to see the different approaches used by the teams on the nominated themes.  Because they are time limited on the construction of the layout there are a  couple of questions I would ask.  They are:

 

1.  Why bother to waste time modifying points when they can be used straight out of the box?

2.  Why have point motors which require to be screwed to the baseboard (one team did not have the right size screws)?  They could have used Peco points & their simple solenoids which attach directly to the points.

 

 

 

Looking at what they were doing I got the impression that it was the need felt by most/all(?) the teams to use DCC for much of the stuff. I did wonder if the use of simple DC may have been easier and less time consuming. The remit was for the railway to operate well, that can be done just as efficiently with DC as DCC. Then you can keep the "animations" separately operated by buttons on the edge of the layout. Regards the firebox lights, keep one siding separate to the rest and have dud locos with just the light in the smokebox fed form a separate 12v source (I think that GM controller has one?, if not just use one of the controllers on it). I felt that to succeed you needed a fairly simple plan, anything to keep it that way would seem to be the way to do it. 

[MarkSG]

On a related topic, I hope that as many layouts as possible from this series can go on the exhibition circuit. My children would love to see them in the flesh, so to speak, and if they were at a show near me then they'd jump at the chance to come along. I know that a couple of the layouts, including the winner, will be at Warley, but that's too big a show for my younger daughter - while she'd enjoy the GMRC layouts, she'd be bored before we had a chance to see all the others. But if one of them could be at a smaller, more local show it would be ideal.

 

That's a plea both to the competing teams and exhibition organisers - you have available to you an excellent advert for the hobby, even if it isn't quite up to the level of detail and fidelity that we'd normally expect to see at a show. So, please, use it! Being able to advertise a layout from the GMRC on show publicity should help to bring in the uncommitted. And, you never know, they might come for the GMRC layout, but go away most impressed by a finescale shunting plank or a large N gauge main line!

[Jeff Smith]

When on TV, many would want to be seem to be doing the best job possible & consider relying on point blades to be a bodge, not wanting to be seen doing it.

I would have thought that brand new electrofrog points would perform perfectly satisfactorily for the very limited time that they need to under these competition conditions. Assuming un-painted and with limited ballasting. After all many people rely on this feature and never add additional switching and wiring.

 

I would not advocate this for a long term layout but there are surely other more visually appealing aspects that time could be better spent on.

 

If this competition is to succeed in introducing newcomers then simple off the shelf construction could be employed, even to using foam ballast - quick and easy.

[enginelane]

On a related topic, I hope that as many layouts as possible from this series can go on the exhibition circuit. My children would love to see them in the flesh, so to speak, and if they were at a show near me then they'd jump at the chance to come along. I know that a couple of the layouts, including the winner, will be at Warley, but that's too big a show for my younger daughter - while she'd enjoy the GMRC layouts, she'd be bored before we had a chance to see all the others. But if one of them could be at a smaller, more local show it would be ideal.

 

That's a plea both to the competing teams and exhibition organisers - you have available to you an excellent advert for the hobby, even if it isn't quite up to the level of detail and fidelity that we'd normally expect to see at a show. So, please, use it! Being able to advertise a layout from the GMRC on show publicity should help to bring in the uncommitted. And, you never know, they might come for the GMRC layout, but go away most impressed by a finescale shunting plank or a large N gauge main line!

Team Wakefield’s will be used to attract new members and use to dvelop their skills with an aim of it coming to the exhibition at Wakefield. It will be down to other exhibition managers to decide if it is worthy of being invited to other shows.

 

Vale of Evesham might be a long way to come but you would be most welcome!

[hicksan]

Enjoyed it more this week and thought the layouts had a better link with the subject matter this week. Loved the blackadder scene which underlined the link with the program. I felt the sci-fi layout looked a bit bare in parts but maybe that was for the tank to wiz around. Glad there was no pantomime villain this week and it did underline the judges comments in week one about the bare boards in the missenden layout as it looked like all the layouts at least had painted surfaces.

Is the female judge as serious/ harsh as she comes across on the program?

Mark

 

Actually off camera Kathy Millatt is a really lovely person and a truly gifted modeller in her own right. It was a great pleasure meeting her on set and talking about the 3D back-scenes and forced perspective we (Missenden) were trying to achieve, not to mention orreries and 3D printers as well. So no trolling her, please, folks? The show may seem like a pantomime sometimes, if that's how they choose to edit it, but the participants are still real humans.

[enginelane]

Actually off camera Kathy Millatt is a really lovely person and a truly gifted modeller in her own right. It was a great pleasure meeting her on set and talking about the 3D back-scenes and forced perspective we (Missenden) were trying to achieve, not to mention orreries and 3D printers as well. So no trolling her, please, folks? The show may seem like a pantomime sometimes, if that's how they choose to edit it, but the participants are still real humans.

I agree. She is there to do a job as a judge. We had a lot of chats about modelling water, different products and on how the quarry scene could have been made. We went old school with plaster moulds using light weight plaster but Kathy put us onto some US products that are much lighter and we are considering for our next exhibition layout. Only problem I had was calling her Kate and we had to reshoot the whole conversation again!

[chuffinghell]

I think all the teams involved have done exceptional well under pressure this week, particularly the time constraints, three days isn’t really long enough for a resin water effect so hats off to all three teams for giving it their best shot

[Ian Morgan]

The eventual winning layout will be at Warley on the Bachmann stand. Santa's Globetrotting Holiday will be at Warley on the Peco stand, and will be at the Basingstoke exhibition in March. 'Go Forth' was exhibited at a model shop in Midsomer Norton yesterday. 'Clucas Bay' was at the Aberdeen exhibition last weekend, and Wakefield will have their layout at their show. I don't know about any other appearances yet.

 

However, because of the size and weight of the layouts, the cost of van hire might put off some exhibition managers. We shall see.

 

(Edit - Not Shepton Mallet)

Edited November 4, 2018 by Ian Morgan

[Signalist]

1.  Why bother to waste time modifying points when they can be used straight out of the box?

 

A. They take a lot of keeping clean to work out of the box, just one spec of ballast/glue/paint and they don't work.

B. It takes just seconds to modify them.

C. With modern trains now reverting to needing traction tyres leaving 4-wheel pickup you do not want to be taking any chances - especially with sound fitted.

D. Points could be prepared as part of the pre-build for the most part.

E. You need to fit dropper wires for power feed anyway.

 

Conclusion - it is far from a waste of time! There was a lot of gunge flying around.

 

2.  Why have point motors which require to be screwed to the baseboard (one team did not have the right size screws)?  They could have used Peco points & their simple solenoids which attach directly to the points.

 

A. Fitting PL10 solenoids to the points requires a whacking great hole in the baseboard - much easier to just drill a 10mm hole that all the ballast does not fall through and fit the motors below.

B. Solenoids are a bit old fashioned - people expect to see more realistic speeds as the blades move smoothly across - not rapid movement with bouncing and a loud bang.

C. It is not that hard to fit a good quality servo motor under the baseboard with three screws in slotted holes.

D. Servos are cheaper than solenoids.

 

Conclusion - it is quicker over all to fit below the baseboard motors and looks a lot better when operated, and is cheaper too.

 

 

Not everyone used servos, I saw some Seep solenoids being used presumably to save a bit of money over the Peco equivalent.

 

 

Paul

[SDJR7F88]

Me and the team displayed our Blackadder themed Heat Layout (from ep 2), at Signals Mod Shop in Midsomer Norton yesterday for their 10th anniversary, for the first time.

 

Was great to see how many people turned up for a look at the layout. One kid, who had his photograph last weekend at RAIL-EX Taunton with me and another team member, had been driven all the way up from Devon by his mum to come and see the layout.

 

He was amazed to see it in the flesh, and went around pointing out all the details as seen on the show, including all our teams scratch builds. What really made his day was when we let him fire the Railgun, and then drive the trains! The look on his and his mum's face was priceless! Really made his day!

[Free At Last]

Crewlisle, on 04 Nov 2018 - 13:33, said:

1.  Why bother to waste time modifying points when they can be used straight out of the box?

 

Peter

I suppose if you are used to wiring to best practice why break the habit. Doesn't take long and no downsides to it.

[Signalist]

Looking at what they were doing I got the impression that it was the need felt by most/all(?) the teams to use DCC for much of the stuff. I did wonder if the use of simple DC may have been easier and less time consuming. The remit was for the railway to operate well, that can be done just as efficiently with DC as DCC. Then you can keep the "animations" separately operated by buttons on the edge of the layout. Regards the firebox lights, keep one siding separate to the rest and have dud locos with just the light in the smokebox fed form a separate 12v source (I think that GM controller has one?, if not just use one of the controllers on it). I felt that to succeed you needed a fairly simple plan, anything to keep it that way would seem to be the way to do it. 

 

DCC does make life a lot easier in not having to wire up so much, and making a lot of other features like lights and sound on the trains possible (things the production team encouraged) as well as enabling the trains to run at realistic speeds without having to be poked by finger. Getting the track clean enough for good DC running of the 350s in the time would have been impossible.

[Ian Morgan]

So, on one side the teams are being pilloried for not building 'proper' model railways, and now we are being questioned for following best practice by modifying points for reliable operation.

 

We stepped into the unknown, asked to be adventurous and theatrical, and create a layout in a very short time. The fact that all 15 teams actually completed their layouts and created something most people seem to be pleased with, shows that we all took the task seriously, even if whimsical dinosaurs, UFOs and Santa were part of the build.

 

We went for DCC to add the theatricality of sound. It also saved a lot of time on wiring complexity. and gave us smooth, faultless running.

[Captain Kernow]

Out of interest, if it's correct that all the layouts in the Final must be joined up and a train run between all of them, will this force the adoption of either DCC or DC by some groups, that might have otherwise used the other system?

[Captain Kernow]

On a related topic, I hope that as many layouts as possible from this series can go on the exhibition circuit. My children would love to see them in the flesh, so to speak, and if they were at a show near me then they'd jump at the chance to come along. I know that a couple of the layouts, including the winner, will be at Warley, but that's too big a show for my younger daughter - while she'd enjoy the GMRC layouts, she'd be bored before we had a chance to see all the others. But if one of them could be at a smaller, more local show it would be ideal.

 

That's a plea both to the competing teams and exhibition organisers - you have available to you an excellent advert for the hobby, even if it isn't quite up to the level of detail and fidelity that we'd normally expect to see at a show. So, please, use it! Being able to advertise a layout from the GMRC on show publicity should help to bring in the uncommitted. And, you never know, they might come for the GMRC layout, but go away most impressed by a finescale shunting plank or a large N gauge main line!

What has just occurred to me, is that it would be brilliant if all (or as many as possible) of the layouts could be assembed in one place and a specific GMRC exhibition put on, with perhaps the judges and presenters also present, talking to visitors?

 

I'd certainly pay to go and see something like that.

[Barry Ten]

 

B. It takes just seconds to modify them.

 

 

 

Can you come round and do mine please!

[Golden Fleece 30]

DCC does make life a lot easier in not having to wire up so much, and making a lot of other features like lights and sound on the trains possible (things the production team encouraged) as well as enabling the trains to run at realistic speeds without having to be poked by finger. Getting the track clean enough for good DC running of the 350s in the time would have been impossible.

I am not getting into a debate on DC v DCC but finger poking does not work when the whole layout has stopped and people stand around scratching their heads not knowing what to do.  It happens at every show I go to and at York this year one DCC layout spent all 3 days without running from its set up to dismantling. Don't get me going on sound either.

 

Garry

[Norm81]

Actually off camera Kathy Millatt is a really lovely person and a truly gifted modeller in her own right. It was a great pleasure meeting her on set and talking about the 3D back-scenes and forced perspective we (Missenden) were trying to achieve, not to mention orreries and 3D printers as well. So no trolling her, please, folks? The show may seem like a pantomime sometimes, if that's how they choose to edit it, but the participants are still real humans.

It hadn't escaped me that they have essentially cast her as a "Simon Cowell" type judge and she's probably not like that at all. I'm sure the same is true of others who have been on camera too, it's how the director is telling them to act not how they really are.

 

Hopefully the show gets people who aren't already modellers interested, if not in railway modelling then in doing something more creative than poking at a touchscreen.

[PMP]

A. They take a lot of keeping clean to work out of the box, just one spec of ballast/glue/paint and they don't work.

 

 (Snip)

A. Fitting PL10 solenoids to the points requires a whacking great hole in the baseboard - much easier to just drill a 10mm hole that all the ballast does not fall through and fit the motors below.

 

Paul

PL10-E have the extended actuating arm and don’t need the large baseboard hole. There’s nothing wrong with blade contact, two of my layouts Albion Yard and Shelfie use it with very rare contact failures.

[Captain Kernow]

There’s nothing wrong with blade contact, two of my layouts Albion Yard and Shelfie use it with very rare contact failures.

I believe that the excellent layouts of the Sheep Continuum use the same methods.

[Free At Last]

Golden Fleece 30, on 04 Nov 2018 - 16:23, said:

I am not getting into a debate on DC v DCC but finger poking does not work when the whole layout has stopped and people stand around scratching their heads not knowing what to do.  It happens at every show I go to and at York this year one DCC layout spent all 3 days without running from its set up to dismantling. Don't get me going on sound either.

 

Garry

Please don't go to the Wigan exhibition next year on the Sunday.

[Mallard60022]

I am not getting into a debate on DC v DCC but finger poking does not work when the whole layout has stopped and people stand around scratching their heads not knowing what to do.  It happens at every show I go to and at York this year one DCC layout spent all 3 days without running from its set up to dismantling. Don't get me going on sound either.

 

Garry

In this sort of time scale, why not keep it simple for DCC and go for class scenics and 'novelty' scenes? Without too much trouble the layout could be DC or DCC if it were kept simple.

Why does a model railway have to be really complex to win a competition, or are the competitors made to do a set pattern of things?    

Easy for me to say but often 'less is more' (as some daft managers say to impress).

Phil

[Mallard60022]

I am not getting into a debate on DC v DCC but finger poking does not work when the whole layout has stopped and people stand around scratching their heads not knowing what to do.  It happens at every show I go to and at York this year one DCC layout spent all 3 days without running from its set up to dismantling. Don't get me going on sound either.

 

Garry

Glad about that Garry. There is enough blood letting on this Forum. 

Phil

[Barry Ten]

I believe that the excellent layouts of the Sheep Continuum use the same methods.

 

As does Cogirep (and Paynestown). I've got used to having to do it in N, though, so

it's fairly standard to fit frog switching, as a belt-and-braces approach. It does add

a fair "overhead" to the process, I find, as well as adding another potential point of failure.