Conversion kit for Airfix 4F to Maunsell Q

[Jim49]

Hi all, following to a recent visit to the Bluebell Railway I was struck by the resemblance between their Southern Q Class and the LMS 4F.

Does anyone know if there is detailing kit to convert the ex Airfix/Hornby 4F to a Q Class locomotive?

 

Jim49

Edited October 6, 2018 by Jim49

[jimwal]

Not to my knowledge.

 

Jim

Edited October 6, 2018 by jimwal

[phil-b259]

Hi all, following to a recent visit to the Bluebell Railway I was struck by the resemblance between their Southern Q Class and the LMS 4F.

Does anyone know if there is detailing kit to convert the ex Airfix/Hornby 4F to a Q |Class locomotive?

 

Jim49

 

This resemblance has a lot to do with the fact that one of Maunsel's long time assistants (James Clayton) cut his teeth on the Midland Railway.

 

If you examine the L1, E1 and D1 locos they also show a striking resemblance to the 2P 4-4-0s built by the Midland for much the same reason.

 

I have no idea if the finer details like wheelbases are the same though.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi all, following to a recent visit to the Bluebell Railway I was struck by the resemblance between their Southern Q Class and the LMS 4F.

Does anyone know if there is detailing kit to convert the ex Airfix/Hornby 4F to a Q |Class locomotive?

 

Jim49

Hi Jim

 

Way back in the 80s Vivian Thompson wrote an article on converting a 4F to a Q in Model Railway Constructor. I am sure someone will tell which edition.

[Bailey Gate]

Golden Arrow do a resin body for the loco and tender to fit the 4F running gear, I have one in my ever growing "to do" pile. 

 

HTH

 

Geoff

[Horsetan]

Crownline used to produce a conversion kit many years ago. It eventually became a full loco kit in itself and is now available through PDK.

[bigherb]

Or the Wills/SE Finecast kit on a Triang/Hornby chassis.

 

 

[hayfield]

The Wills/Southeastern Finecast SR Q class loco is reasonably common on sites like eBay, normally in the former with Triang/Hornby chassis at quite modest prices. The Triang/Hornby chassis are quite bullet proof and can lend themselves to be upgraded with MRRS 5 pole motors and or Romford/Markit wheels and might be a bit more reliable than the Airfix mechanisms> I would guess the PDK kit to be a bit superior, but far harder to build 

 

The Wills kits were quite basic and the Southeastern Finecast examples are un-revised and still use the Southeastern Finecast etched brass (tender version) Jinty replacement chassis, which is an updated revised kit with brake gear, older more basic Wills Finecast etched kits still pop up.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Hi all, following to a recent visit to the Bluebell Railway I was struck by the resemblance between their Southern Q Class and the LMS 4F...

 If 'looks like' is close enough, three overlays on the cab, spectacle plate and two cab side sheets, moving the front step forward about 2mm, changing the sand box shapes, a capuchon for the chimney, and giving the loco a SR or BR(SR) number does it as far as the loco is concerned.

 

A pretty minimal 'kit' which can all be done for near nothing from plasticard, and the joy of it is that the necessary parts can all be made off the model with lots of 'cut and try' until correct. Only then does the model get cut as required to allow the restyling parts to go on. A really good first project if nothing like this has been previously attempted.

[Jim49]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions. "Looks like" is always good enough for me, especially if I can try out any changes in advance without damaging the body.

 

Thanks again

 

Jim

[Horsetan]

...I would guess the PDK kit to be a bit superior, but far harder to build .....

Yes and no. Bits of the design are very simple indeed - that's Paul Hill's trademark, in a way, because he designs for robustness (look at the way he designs valve gear and motion, for example) rather than finescale.

[hayfield]

Yes and no. Bits of the design are very simple indeed - that's Paul Hill's trademark, in a way, because he designs for robustness (look at the way he designs valve gear and motion, for example) rather than finescale.

 

 

I was thinking that some find gluing whitemetal easier than soldering etched kits, though soldering whitemetal is my preference 

[Northmoor]

Way back in the 80s Vivian Thompson wrote an article on converting a 4F to a Q in Model Railway Constructor. I am sure someone will tell which edition.

I think that article may have been in Model Trains (1908/81); there was also one for converting the 4F to a J11.

[Clive Mortimore]

I think that article may have been in Model Trains (1908/81); there was also one for converting the 4F to a J11.

Could be.

 

Today I had a look at the diagrams for both classes. The Q is slightly longer at the front so the running plate needs extending. The cabs are different, the boiler mountings are as well. The wheels on the Q are 5ft 1in and the 4 F 5ft 3in is it worth rewheeling? There are minor dimensional differences with the internal measurements of the boiler, how much that translates once the cladding is in place I don't know. They of course hauled tenders that didn't look alike but have the same wheelbase, so even if using a old Airfix tender drive loco it should be possible to make a reasonable looking Q from the 4F model.

 

If I was modelling the SR I would have ago at this conversion, one it looks doable and two when I visit the Bluebell and the Q is in steam in it is my favorite of their locos.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Don't see a major problem in that conversion. A 'Schools' class cab, may be useful.

 

manna

Edited October 6, 2018 by manna

[Horsetan]

...A 'Schools' class cab, may be useful.

 

Maybe not. The Schools cabsides slant inwards.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Horsetan

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Not impossible to half cut through the back of the cab and straighten it.

 

manna

[melmerby]

 The Triang/Hornby chassis are quite bullet proof and can lend themselves to be upgraded with MRRS 5 pole motors and or Romford/Markit wheels and might be a bit more reliable than the Airfix mechanisms>

Be careful when buying 5 pole XO4 lookalikes. Some are intended for slot cars and go like sh*t off a shovel but consume lots of amps.

The correct one is the MRRC 1001.

 

Keith

[Compound2632]

One might go so far as to say that the Airfix model looks as like a Q as it does a 4F...

[Barry Ten]

Could be.

 

Today I had a look at the diagrams for both classes. The Q is slightly longer at the front so the running plate needs extending. The cabs are different, the boiler mountings are as well. The wheels on the Q are 5ft 1in and the 4 F 5ft 3in is it worth rewheeling? There are minor dimensional differences with the internal measurements of the boiler, how much that translates once the cladding is in place I don't know. They of course hauled tenders that didn't look alike but have the same wheelbase, so even if using a old Airfix tender drive loco it should be possible to make a reasonable looking Q from the 4F model.

 

If I was modelling the SR I would have ago at this conversion, one it looks doable and two when I visit the Bluebell and the Q is in steam in it is my favorite of their locos.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was in Model Trains as well, as I wasn't a regular reader of MRC at the time. I wouldn't say it was worth rewheeling as 2 inches of difference is barely noticeable and must be close to the margin of error allowed for wheel wear.

[devonseasider]

Here's my attempt, as far as it's got at the moment  -  obviously still quite a bit to do.

 

Old Airfix 4F body with Crownline conversion kit (which included new tender).

Loco chassis also replaced with Kemilway kit which I had in stock.

 

Not perfect by any means but to me it looks like a Q, so I'm happy.

 

 

 

[Sandhole]

Mine will be an old Finecast kit on a Bachmann C Class chassis.

The tender chassis is the same.

I was able to take advantage of one of those 'Lets sell off stuff at stupid prices!' times Rails or Hattons do. This meant the price of the C was reasonable.

                                                                                 Chris.

[DCB]

If you use the Airfix as a starting point you are still stuck with the Airfix Tender drive which has great traction but in my experience jumps about like an over excited frog and makes the track filthy.   Maybe a Bachmann 3F chassis under the loco would be better?  The Triang 3F is 8ft +8ft 3" so 3" too short but looks al right under the Wills Q if you close your eyes to the magnet in the cab or trim the motor short by using a stack of small Chinese super neo magnets in place of the standard block.

 

Visually the differences as I see them are, 1 bigger smokebox door, maybe LN or Schools size?   2 Cab, maybe adapt a schools (or LN) as stated above, 3 Running plate.  The Q has almost no "lip" at the top, very straight sided as is the tender and forms a straight line from loco buffer beam to tender bufferbeam in every photo I have seen.   The 4F has a pronounced overhang of the top surface of the running plate.

4  Firebox, the Q is much more curvaceous, the 4F very straight especially at the front top corners.  5 wheels, the Q wheels look smaller than the 4F and the splashers are noticably smaller.  Most models I have seen seem to have oversize wheels though the 20mm Airfix are very nearly the right diameter.   The 4F Splashers hide the frames the Q don't and the shape of the frames can be seen behind them.  

5 Front overhang, part of this is a longer smokebox, part forward of the smokebox.  The only drawing I have access to at present is very wrong about the shape of the frames at the front but it looks like someone decided to leave enough room for someone to stand on the frames to undo the smokebox lugs, which the 4F does not really have.   6 Boiler side gubbins, the Q has lubricator pipes and an ejector pipe  on the boiler side in addition to the Handrails.  The 4 F has them buried.

We have a Wills Q on a Triang Chassis with Hamblins wheels.  Built probably 40 years ago. Awful tender coupling which requires a Fireman of Commonwealth games long jump standard to get from loco to tender, (on the to do list for 20 years)  Very powerful, better than Bachmann ROD Hornby 28XX etc   smooth, essentially useless like the real thing, it sits in the display cabinet waiting for a chance to perform on a summer Saturday extra off the Southern.....

[cypherman]

Hi all,

You an get really cheap Lima 4F's on that well known auction site, Going usually for a few pounds. I know they are H0 scale, But that should make the wheels nearer the correct size. It would be a good start for the chassis.

[Jim49]

Hi again and thanks for all the comments.

 

To date I have managed to get hold of photocopies of the Roche series of loco drawings for both the 4F and Q and their tenders. There are obviously some differences between locos and tenders but not enough to put me off having a go at a basic conversion. David has summarised these differences in his post above but I will still have a try.

I intend to model the result as 30541, not because it is preserved but because it seems to be the only one of the class which is recorded as running on the S&D, I think on a goods train to Blandford Forum. There may have been others but no-one bothered about them, possibly thinking that they were 4Fs.

 

Unfortunately nothing will be happening soon as we are going on holiday tomorrow so work will be put on hold until we get back but I will try to keep anyone who is still interested informed of progress.

 

Thanks again

 

Jim