NSE stock running ‘out of area’?

[40 058]

Evening,

 

I’m building a layout based in the Manchester area around 1990 ish and was on Flickr earlier researching passenger train formations for the trans-pennine trains.

 

There’s actually quite a few photos around of Network South East liveried mk1’s and 2’s being used so far away from NSE territory at Manchester Victoria for example, both in full NSE rakes and mixed in with old blue/grey or Regional Railways stock.

 

First question! Why was this? Only reason I can think was they were sent north for use as NSE no longer required hauled stock?

 

Here’s some at Victoria.

 

31434 by Richard Vogel, on Flickr

 

Secondly, another interesting pic turned up showing an NSE liveried class 50 at Manchester Piccadilly,

 

BR Class 50 50044 'Exeter' - Manchester Piccadilly by David Burrell, on Flickr

 

Was this normal? Or was the use of NSE class 50’s only occasional due to non available 47’s or similar?

 

I just found it interesting to see the NSE stock so far away, but it also means I can add a few NSE coaches into my formations here and there! Of course the pic of the 50 in the area might now give me a use for the one I’ve got sat on the shelf!

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited October 7, 2018 by 40 058

[GordonC]

I would expect they were displaced on trains out of Paddington by the class 165/166 turbos or out of Waterloo by class 159s and they were in better condition or an improvement on the stock used elsewhere, possibly air/dual braked rather than vacuum or in a better internal condition

NSE locos certainly used to roam - there are photos of NSE class 47s reaching inverness

[E3109]

ISTR that some stock got sent up here about 1990 ex NSE and I'm almost certain that the carriages went round the Oldham Loop during rush hours, usually hauled by Manchester-allocated Peds I think.

 

Try Flickr, should come up trumps.

[ba14eagle]

Evening,

 

I’m building a layout based in the Manchester area around 1990 ish and was on Flickr earlier researching passenger train formations for the trans-pennine trains.

 

There’s actually quite a few photos around of Network South East liveried mk1’s and 2’s being used so far away from NSE territory at Manchester Victoria for example, both in full NSE rakes and mixed in with old blue/grey or Regional Railways stock.

 

First question! Why was this? Only reason I can think was they were sent north for use as NSE no longer required hauled stock?

 

Here’s some at Victoria.

 

31434 by Richard Vogel, on Flickr

 

Secondly, another interesting pic turned up showing an NSE liveried class 50 at Manchester Piccadilly,

 

BR Class 50 50044 'Exeter' - Manchester Piccadilly by David Burrell, on Flickr

 

Was this normal? Or was the use of NSE class 50’s only occasional due to non available 47’s or similar?

 

I just found it interesting to see the NSE stock so far away, but it also means I can add a few NSE coaches into my formations here and there! Of course the pic of the 50 in the area might now give me a use for the one I’ve got sat on the shelf!

 

Thanks in advance.

There was a Paddington to Manchester Piccadilly working which very occasionally had a class 50 allocated, instead of a class 47, IIRC

[60021 Pen-y-Ghent]

There was a thread a few years back (Sep 2013) which might be of interest to you. Can't remember how to post a link to a topic! Search for "NSE coaches outside of NSE area".

 

I've remembered!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76641-nse-coaches-outside-of-nse-area/?p=1171622

Edited October 8, 2018 by 60021 Pen-y-Ghent

[11B]

Around that time there was a few Regional Railways loco hauled trains around the North West. One set was a on the Barrow -Preston run but did one return trip to Man Vic. It was a 31 with 5 mk2's. Two BSO's and three TSO's, occasionally there would be a mk1in there. One of the brake vans was always an exNSE one, but it had the red stripe painted grey but had what looked like a coat of arms on it, whilst the rest were in Regional Railways livery. At the start I recall some of the TSO's (both mk1 and 2) in NES livery but without the NSE writing on them.

 

If the set was failed we sometimes ended up with 2 x 101's and I remember one of these with a Strathclyde set paired with an NSE on a trip up to Barrow

 

There where a few of these sets about around the Blackpool, Crewe, Liverpool and North Wales coast. I know that one train from Barrow per day went to Man Vic and some from Blackpool went there as well.

 

Regional Railways ran a number of "special days" such as the Longsight open day and you could end up anything on the front. I recall seeing a 60, 37, 56 and 2 20's

 

I guess, like other have said that the Regional Railways stock will have been exNSE stock

 

Not my photos, but a few links below

 

 

https://davemcalone.zenfolio.com/p228429974/h592ef798#h592ef798

 

https://davemcalone.zenfolio.com/p228429974/h592f0166#h592f0166

 

https://davemcalone.zenfolio.com/p228429974/h592f0772#h592f0772

 

Hope this helps

 

Ian

 

Hope this helps

Edited October 8, 2018 by 11B

[40 058]

Brilliant stuff guys, thanks!

 

So it was reasonably normal to see ex NSE stock up north or even over the border then. It would certainly make sense that NSE sent spare hauled stock elsewhere when they got their new units.

NSE locos, I was aware of being well traveled! There’s a pic on Flickr of an NSE 47/4 hauling a parcels train near Manchester, though the above pic of the NSE 50 stood out as unusual, I thought the class’s days up in the NW were over by then!

 

Anyway, it’s a good excuse for me to have a couple of NSE liveried mk1’s and 2’s added in here and there!

[40 058]

Here’s another 50 on the same working, seemingly it did happen more than I thought!

 

401-12 50041 1401pic-pad Manchester piccadilly 16021988 by Hugh Searle, on Flickr

[GordonC]

Blair Atholl

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60539035@N02/40443110931/in/photolist-qmpc8s-a3xEak-jgdVve-axYrzU-bbpLRk-bbpLJa-24BPvS4-5BM4r3-bx8wSx-qNreJd-ek98ZF-kRMVa6-aVM4wD-bxnyFu-fr4wdA-9zp5Ec-fqPhug-eWYWuU-9pvV7D-c2VXAC-cQvNWC-hyEzKU-6HEJ75-mYn6MZ-oxcfHh-22Qzqti-kRMHbB-x3BkGY-x4UQrR-wLKuVq-qQ2i3Z-8aS9kP

 

Inverness

https://www.flickr.com/photos/70831375@N06/10871363974/in/photolist-qmpc8s-a3xEak-jgdVve-axYrzU-bbpLRk-bbpLJa-24BPvS4-5BM4r3-bx8wSx-qNreJd-ek98ZF-kRMVa6-aVM4wD-bxnyFu-fr4wdA-9zp5Ec-fqPhug-eWYWuU-9pvV7D-c2VXAC-cQvNWC-hyEzKU-6HEJ75-mYn6MZ-oxcfHh-22Qzqti-kRMHbB-x3BkGY-x4UQrR-wLKuVq-qQ2i3Z-8aS9kP

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/143518034@N05/39274762135/in/photolist-qmpc8s-a3xEak-jgdVve-axYrzU-bbpLRk-bbpLJa-24BPvS4-5BM4r3-bx8wSx-qNreJd-ek98ZF-kRMVa6-aVM4wD-bxnyFu-fr4wdA-9zp5Ec-fqPhug-eWYWuU-9pvV7D-c2VXAC-cQvNWC-hyEzKU-6HEJ75-mYn6MZ-oxcfHh-22Qzqti-kRMHbB-x3BkGY-x4UQrR-wLKuVq-qQ2i3Z-8aS9kP

 

Sleaford

https://www.flickr.com/photos/actonwellsjunction/8531399234/in/photolist-kRMVa6-dZTDLf-9VXP5w-rkMVJu-UwiGz9-TFWDSp

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/114409360@N03/34473500202/in/photolist-kRMVa6-dZTDLf-9VXP5w-rkMVJu-UwiGz9-TFWDSp

 

Leeds

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcs-pics/6132522994/in/photolist-8nrANC-diGbRV-ofKxTA-kRMHbB-5DwQwd-d32K6h-nTctRH-dYHt3C-9CADKe-dFpjQW-kKTudz-akUMr5-r5uuSX-bSLzxM-jHrrRe-dMCeGX-28oDN3r-f6Te7J-GdSEaf

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27848870@N02/16459745467/in/photolist-8nrANC-diGbRV-ofKxTA-kRMHbB-5DwQwd-d32K6h-nTctRH-dYHt3C-9CADKe-dFpjQW-kKTudz-akUMr5-r5uuSX-bSLzxM-jHrrRe-dMCeGX-28oDN3r-f6Te7J-GdSEaf

 

Lancaster

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/28136316281/in/photolist-qMbWnf-pya7cC-CiRLqf-e55EjS-mf6vJP-qMaxHN-eFkRVb-skpVam-atSy7i-s49XP3-eFkSey-mf6pV4-UVeQvY-GqULuV-9ZKt5F-JSiYzp-rRufiX-byv6tR-9CiF8U-dt7Y3W-bsg7fY-bowTaV-5HBVM7-bpDMiv-rQLWJb-vvm3Ee

 

 

Llandudno

https://www.flickr.com/photos/58585785@N08/15060661281/in/photolist-sEQ7Au-oWRPTP-oWwxUB-9q1QAA-8S3Vok-f6dYb8-bp8SF6

[Trains4U]

There were 3 or 4 rakes of NSE Mark1s used for Northampton relief trains - I saw these at Crewe a few times in the late 80s

 

I seem to recall they often ended up on trains at least as far as Preston and north wales

[40 058]

Were the NSE coaches certain types only (TSO’s & brakes seemed common) or were they pretty much anything and everything that was going?

[EddieK]

The Euston line received new Class 321 EMUs from 1989-90 or so, and I recall that they displaced the Northampton loco hauled sets around that time. 

The Paddington line did not get Class 165/166 until late 1992, so suspect the loco hauled stock stayed on the Oxford route until then. 

The Waterloo - Exeter route started to receive Class 159s from 1993, thereby displacing the hauled stock.

Can't remember when the King's Lynn route lost loco haulage. KL itself was electrified in Mid 1992, but vaguely recall that the wires got to Cambridge from Liverpool Street a bit earlier and that the KL service was a Class 101 DMU shuttle to connect with EMUs at Cambridge.

 

I think that covers the main routes where NSE ran loco hauled - unless I have missed something. 

 

Thinking about it, the Northampton line stock may have been transferred to the Oxford line, as I think the Euston line stock was air braked and gave a better passenger environment.

[Andy W]

The Euston line received new Class 321 EMUs from 1989-90 or so, and I recall that they displaced the Northampton loco hauled sets around that time. 

The Paddington line did not get Class 165/166 until late 1992, so suspect the loco hauled stock stayed on the Oxford route until then. 

The Waterloo - Exeter route started to receive Class 159s from 1993, thereby displacing the hauled stock.

Can't remember when the King's Lynn route lost loco haulage. KL itself was electrified in Mid 1992, but vaguely recall that the wires got to Cambridge from Liverpool Street a bit earlier and that the KL service was a Class 101 DMU shuttle to connect with EMUs at Cambridge.

 

I think that covers the main routes where NSE ran loco hauled - unless I have missed something. 

 

Thinking about it, the Northampton line stock may have been transferred to the Oxford line, as I think the Euston line stock was air braked and gave a better passenger environment.

That wasn't the end of NSE liveried Northampton line trains being used for reliefs though - it just got harder due to traction knowledge being needed for the units. I can remember seeing 12 cars of 321 units sitting in Platform 3 at Preston on a relief to Euston

[Trains4U]

That wasn't the end of NSE liveried Northampton line trains being used for reliefs though - it just got harder due to traction knowledge being needed for the units. I can remember seeing 12 cars of 321 units sitting in Platform 3 at Preston on a relief to Euston

 

 

Preston to Euston on a 321...

 

What must one have done to deserve such a punishment?

[John M Upton]

The NSE liveried Class 47's working in Scotland were where Glasgow Works had repainted some 47/7's but they were then retained for a while before heading down south.

[eastwestdivide]

.... 

The Paddington line did not get Class 165/166 until late 1992, so suspect the loco hauled stock stayed on the Oxford route until then. 

....

Also Paddington-Newbury workings with the same manky Mk1s and mostly 50s until the 165s came.

[Pete the Elaner]

I find the 50s in Manchester surprising due to route & traction knowledge. I know they started their lives in the North West so some WCML drivers may have remembered them but they had all been refurbished since then, so this would surely have made them different to drive & maintain?

 

I would expect Mk2As & class 47s to vary little between regions so I can understand these wandering away from home a little more.

[GordonC]

The 50s at Manchester would probably have been crewed from Birmingham, they'd likely have the route and traction knowledge.

 

There's also been examples of NSE 47/4s in Scotland, not just 47/7s prior to transfer away

[forest2807]

The NSE liveried Class 47's working in Scotland were where Glasgow Works had repainted some 47/7's but they were then retained for a while before heading down south.

But there are also photos (on Flickr is where I have seen them but bound to be available elsewhere) of 47/4s in NSE livery in and around the Highlands/Inverness. One that sticks in my mind is of 47573 on a service to Inverness from the central belt.

[forest2807]

See this thread, specifically post #3.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122073-network-southeast-1987-1994/

Edited October 9, 2018 by forest2807

[w124bob]

As a former Vic driver I certainly worked many of these trains, there are actually two periods of NSE coaches. The first was a short period when MK1 4coach rakes appeared as 142/DMU stand ins. Intially based out of Red Bank and Edgehill they were unlpanned, being dragged into use sometimes just an hour or so before the booked departure time. I've done short notice trips around the Oldham loop Blackburn or Blackpool, I also worked a couple of times Vic Rochdale all stops via Bradford to York back ecs. The Mk1 era settled down to some regular diagrammes with a handful of mixed blue grey/NSE sets with various 31's doing the work.

The second era was the MK2/31+37 era this was a much more planned loco hauled time, traction training on 37's took place and the Vic diagrammes involved the club trains to/from Southport and Blackpool. The stock was eventually livered in Reggy rail colours.

From memory the MK1 did have a couple of regular Vic to Barrow workings.

Edited October 9, 2018 by w124bob

[40 058]

As a former Vic driver I certainly worked many of these trains, there are actually two periods of NSE coaches. The first was a short period when MK1 4coach rakes appeared as 142/DMU stand ins. Intially based out of Red Bank and Edgehill they were unlpanned, being dragged into use sometimes just an hour or so before the booked departure time. I've done short notice trips around the Oldham loop Blackburn or Blackpool, I also worked a couple of times Vic Rochdale all stops via Bradford to York back ecs. The Mk1 era settled down to some regular diagrammes with a handful of mixed blue grey/NSE sets with various 31's doing the work.

The second era was the MK2/31+37 era this was a much more planned loco hauled time, traction training on 37's took place and the Vic diagrammes involved the club trains to/from Southport and Blackpool. The stock was eventually livered in Reggy rail colours.

From memory the MK1 did have a couple of regular Vic to Barrow workings.

Great info there.

I don’t suppose you can remember any example formations? I’m looking mainly at the specific types of mk1 or mk2 and it’s livery. I’ve found plenty of pics of the trains in question but it can be difficult sometimes to make out what type of coaches are in the formations.

[w124bob]

No I can't remember coach types, best guess looking at the various picture sites is SO/TSO with the BSK for the guard some SK's may have been around but I seem to recall open coaches except the BSK everthing vac braked eth. The MK2 era was mostly MK2A so airbraked eth with the odd first in some formations before the Reggy rail era.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The 50s at Manchester would probably have been crewed from Birmingham, they'd likely have the route and traction knowledge.

 

There's also been examples of NSE 47/4s in Scotland, not just 47/7s prior to transfer away

Birmingham men worked a roster pattern in those days designed to maintain route and traction knowledge and often worked 50s to Bristol and Reading so a 50 to Manchester on Paddington was no problem.

There are several pictures around in that era of 50s north of Birmingham on Manchester trains.

[EddieK]

From memory, didn't the Northampton - Euston Mark 1 sets venture onto the Cambrian Coast on Summer Saturdays?

 

Agree with above comment regarding 321s for long distance travel....