Ebbw Vale Ore Trains 42/52XX and 9F Allocations

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

I have recently taken an interest in Hornby 42/52/72XX engines and have several books these engines and their work on their way to NZ,  but while I wait I have learned a little about the spectacular steam working by 2-8-0Ts on Newport-Ebbw Vale ore trains.

 

I am also told that pairs of 9Fs hauled 32 loaded hoppers on this route, described as spectacular in a wooded valley beyond Aberbeeg.Now that must have been something!

 

Could someone please tell me which 9Fs were used for these trains?   And if they were in any way modified?

 

I was a teenager in NZ in 1967 when steam was still the main way of transporting coal on the West Coast, with engines worked just as hard as I suspect the engines were in the Welsh valleys. We in NZ had grades as steep at 1-in-26 still being worked by 4-6-4Ts   Spectacular doesn't even begin to describe it. Although rose tinted and all that.

 

Any and all information about the Ebbw Vale ore trains welcome,

 

Thanks,

 

 

[br2975]

The first tranche of 9Fs off the production line were allocated to Ebbw Junction, primarily intended for use on the Newport Docks - Ebbw Vale iro ore trains.

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The 9Fs suffered teething troubles and were put into store at Ebbw Junction to await (braking ?) modifications.

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Once the mods had been effected, they commenced working the iron ore trains, toping and tailing the hoppers, and there are some images of the iron ore trains running without brake vans.

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The 9Fs were not visibly modified for the service.

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They replaced predominantly 72xx tanks, but also 42xx and 5205 class tanks, which worked other trains to and from Ebbw Vale e.g. tinplate in vans.

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The 9Fs continued in this role until replaced by English Electric Tye 3s (Class 37) which also worked the iron ore trains in top and tail form.

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On occasions in the early 1970s the iron ore trains were also worked by "Western" (Class 52) diesel hydraulics, both singly and again, top and tailed.

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Eventually, the working was turned over to pairs of Cl.25s imported from the Eastern and later Midland Regions, but there were problems with traction motor flashovers with the Cl.25s  which worked these trains from late 1970 until steel making ceased at Ebbw Vale circa 1978.

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I remember watching Cross Keys playing a local derby against 'Flower' (Fleur de Lis) at Pandy Park as pairs of Cl.25 struggled up the line, making an almighty din.

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As for allocations, try the BR Database website.

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Below is the link to the allocation of Ebbw Junction, from which you should be able to pick out the locos you want, that fit in with your time period,

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http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=195

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If you use FB, you may wish to consider this FB Group (Railways in South Wales), where there have been recent posts (diesel era) relating to the Ebbw Vale & Western Valley line:.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1481784582093228/

 

Brian R

Edited October 11, 2018 by br2975

[robmcg]

Thankyou ever so much, that's exactly the kind of thing needed, and I have models of 92002, 92006 and 92008 so cannot go wrong!

 

Mind you, the above are pristine, which I doubt lasted long.

 

For some reason I had imagined that the iron ore trains were more likely 42/52XX than 72XX... thinking maybe the latter were spread more widely outside Wales.

 

Thanks again. I shall try to conjour-up a 9F picture, and possibly a 72XX version with appropriate numbers.

 

I hope to find photos of the valley beyond Aberbeeg and am curious about the ruling grade.  It must have been steep to limit two 2-8-0s to what I presume was about 550 tons? 

[Steamport Southport]

One modification that some of the early ones did receive was a double chimney.

 

 

 

The only modification which did deliver any noticeable benefit was the fitting of 92178 with a double blastpipe and chimney during its construction. Following delivery in September 1957, it was subjected to extensive testing, both in the Rugby test plant and on service trains. After the completion of the tests in February 1958, it was decided to fit all 9Fs built subsequently with double blastpipes and chimneys; these were numbers 92183 onwards, also 92165–7.

 

The modification was also installed on 92000/1/2/5 and 92006.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F

 

 

 

Jason

[pH]

The 9Fs suffered teething troubles and were put into store at Ebbw Junction to await (braking ?) modifications.

 

According to Loco Profile 33 'B.R. Class 9 2-10-0', the problem was with the throttle. If an engine started to slip when working hard at slow speeds, it could be very difficult, at times almost impossible, to shut the throttle. Even when being worked more easily, the throttle could be difficult to move. Throttles were modified to have a smaller opening of the main valve, which helped with the problem, without having much effect on high power outputs.

[Steamport Southport]

Throttle?

 

 

Bloomin' diesel drivers....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[robmcg]

Regulator, whatever,   when I raced british motorbikes it was always throttle.... 

 

Anyone know the grade from Aberbeeg to Ebbw Vale, and the weight of a loaded iron ore wagon...  and just to confirm, the ore trains went up the Ebbw river valley not by any ex-LNWR line?

 

I am presuming most of the Ebbw Vale steelworks production after the 1940s was rolled steel, shipped in coils in ordinary wagons?

 

here are 1950s ore wagons  probably pre-1920s too, judging by the marine element in the pic.

 

 

Apologies for my lack of knowledge about this particular aspect of Welsh railway working.

Edited October 12, 2018 by robmcg

[robmcg]

According to Loco Profile 33 'B.R. Class 9 2-10-0', the problem was with the throttle. If an engine started to slip when working hard at slow speeds, it could be very difficult, at times almost impossible, to shut the throttle. Even when being worked more easily, the throttle could be difficult to move. Throttles were modified to have a smaller opening of the main valve, which helped with the problem, without having much effect on high power outputs.

 

Thanks for that, I will check my Irwell 'Book of the 9F 2-10-0s', and see what it has to say too.

 

Your flickr link has excellent evocative photos, good stuff, cheers

[br2975]

..  and just to confirm, the ore trains went up the Ebbw river valley not by any ex-LNWR line?

 

 

Newport Docks - Park Junction - Rogerstone - Cross Keys - Llanhilleth - Aberbeeg - Cwm - Ebbw Vale.....not via the LNWR.

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The attached, undated, photo (photographer unknown, possibly Colour Rail ?) shows 5238 banked by 7218 waiting for the board to come off at Aberbeeg with an ore train for Ebbw Vale.

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Brian R

[robmcg]

Oh wow!  Exactly what I was after.

 

Thankyou, thankyou!

 

here is an Ebbw 9F in a distinctly non-Welsh scene

 

 

I plan pictures of all the GW tanks as well as 9Fs for pictures.

 

I notice the two tank engines have approx 32 loaded ore wagons.   Not the 24 I though was a maximum.

 

and the banker in Brian's photo 7218...

 

 

Hornby and TMC.   Pics edited.

Edited October 12, 2018 by robmcg

[hmrspaul]

Newport Docks - Park Junction - Rogerstone - Cross Keys - Llanhilleth - Aberbeeg - Cwm - Ebbw Vale.....not via the LNWR.

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The attached, undated, photo (photographer unknown, possibly Colour Rail ?) shows 5238 banked by 7218 waiting for the board to come off at Aberbeeg with an ore train for Ebbw Vale.

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Brian R

An amazing variety of wagons on that train - as is apparent in other photos of Western area iron ore trains. Perhaps the most overlooked part of wagon history - just at Scunthorpe (OT I know) there were dozens of drawings as they slowly evolved designs - and each private company tended to do their own thing - perhaps because the weight by volume of ores varied so much.

 

Paul

[Mike 84C]

I do like your 9F and 72 t. I also have a model of 7218 bought because I fired that loco several times from the ironstone sidings at Banbury and without doubt it was a pig to get to steam! The worst of the three at 84C by a mile.

   The 9F always had a tendancy for the regulator to stick open, even if you just cracked it the loco would shoot off with great gusto! I am surprised there were no side swipes on MPD;s You never moved a 9f without warming the steambrake up first. And if the boiler was full very gingerly.   But they were my favourite freight loco, fast comfortable, good injectors, keep the back corners very full even with slack coal, rock the grate now and then and they would steam for Britain!  The memories of that life; I wish it had never finished but would I want too be doing it at 71? hmmm 

[Andy Kirkham]

Newport Docks - Park Junction - Rogerstone - Cross Keys - Llanhilleth - Aberbeeg - Cwm - Ebbw Vale.....not via the LNWR.

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The attached, undated, photo (photographer unknown, possibly Colour Rail ?) shows 5238 banked by 7218 waiting for the board to come off at Aberbeeg with an ore train for Ebbw Vale.

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Brian R

Reminds me of the work of T.B.Owen. His pictures often have telephoto foreshortening to about that degree.

[The Johnster]

Pedant mode fully engaged, the board is off for the Ebbw Vale line and the train is getting under way, not waiting for the road.

Edited October 16, 2018 by The Johnster

[br2975]

Pedant mode fully engaged, the board is off for the Ebbw Vale line and the train is getting under way, not waiting for the road.

 

Is it ever disengaged ?

Edited October 17, 2018 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

Pedant mode fully engaged, the board is off for the Ebbw Vale line and the train is getting under way, not waiting for the road.

 

Pedant mode engaged - it is actually off for the Up Loop.  Which could eventually take it towards Ebbw Vale provided it had the road out of the loop at Aberbeeg North.  That means the picture was taken before 30 July 1964 if the train is actually going to get to Ebbw vale.

 

Now back to a post I'm sorry I missed previously and Brian's comment about the first 9Fs at Ebbw Jcn being put into store (post No,2 in this thread.  and I would suggest - sorry I know, that it had nothing to do with the engines slipping.  What actually happened was that there was a runaway, followed by a second runaway, of a 9F working an empty train down from Ebbw Vale - the runaways occurring well south of Aberbeeg.  Joe Field who was a senior WR HQ Loco Inspector at the time was sent down to South Wales to investigate the problem and carry out some tests to see what was happening and according to what he related to me, and others, some years later the problem was the regulator and centred around the fact that it could not be shut.  He discovered that the hard way on his first or second when descending with a train of empties which also ran away because try whatever they might neither he nor the Driver could close the regulator.  The problem was identified, if I correctly recall what he said, as being something to do with the regulator valve and, I think, back pressure stopping it being closed and a small modification was carried out, and incorporated on later built engines, which solved the problem.  Up until then it had reportedly, and according to Joe - not surprisingly - been encountered in any other 9Fs

[The Johnster]

Is it ever disengaged ?

 

No.  See you on Sunday at the show?

[philip-griffiths]

Hi,

 

which books have you ordered?   The Aberbeeg to Ebbw Vale book in this series is excellent, have not seen the one covering the lower part of the valley.

 

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Railways-and-Industry-in-the-Western-Valley-Hardback/p/11749

 

By the time of your modelling period, there was little freight on the ex LNWR branch. The passenger shuttle to and from Brynmawr went by 1951 and freight was worked via the Sirhowy line.  

 

regards

[robmcg]

Pedant mode engaged - it is actually off for the Up Loop.  Which could eventually take it towards Ebbw Vale provided it had the road out of the loop at Aberbeeg North.  That means the picture was taken before 30 July 1964 if the train is actually going to get to Ebbw vale.

 

Now back to a post I'm sorry I missed previously and Brian's comment about the first 9Fs at Ebbw Jcn being put into store (post No,2 in this thread.  and I would suggest - sorry I know, that it had nothing to do with the engines slipping.  What actually happened was that there was a runaway, followed by a second runaway, of a 9F working an empty train down from Ebbw Vale - the runaways occurring well south of Aberbeeg.  Joe Field who was a senior WR HQ Loco Inspector at the time was sent down to South Wales to investigate the problem and carry out some tests to see what was happening and according to what he related to me, and others, some years later the problem was the regulator and centred around the fact that it could not be shut.  He discovered that the hard way on his first or second when descending with a train of empties which also ran away because try whatever they might neither he nor the Driver could close the regulator.  The problem was identified, if I correctly recall what he said, as being something to do with the regulator valve and, I think, back pressure stopping it being closed and a small modification was carried out, and incorporated on later built engines, which solved the problem.  Up until then it had reportedly, and according to Joe - not surprisingly - been encountered in any other 9Fs

 

Thank you for that Stationmaster.  It must have been nerve-wracking to say the least.

 

Can you advise the actual maximum load of ore-trains up to Ebbw Vale, as there appears to be some confusion about the load a pair of 2-8-0Ts could haul up the valley from Aberbeeg, likewise a pair of 9Fs (of which there do not seem to be many photos in existence on ore trains, or I don't know where to look).

[robmcg]

Hi,

 

which books have you ordered?   The Aberbeeg to Ebbw Vale book in this series is excellent, have not seen the one covering the lower part of the valley.

 

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Railways-and-Industry-in-the-Western-Valley-Hardback/p/11749

 

By the time of your modelling period, there was little freight on the ex LNWR branch. The passenger shuttle to and from Brynmawr went by 1951 and freight was worked via the Sirhowy line.  

 

regards

 

Thanks for that, and yes, that is one of the books I have ordered, and look forward to seeing soon.

 

Cheers

[robmcg]

I do like your 9F and 72 t. I also have a model of 7218 bought because I fired that loco several times from the ironstone sidings at Banbury and without doubt it was a pig to get to steam! The worst of the three at 84C by a mile.

   The 9F always had a tendancy for the regulator to stick open, even if you just cracked it the loco would shoot off with great gusto! I am surprised there were no side swipes on MPD;s You never moved a 9f without warming the steambrake up first. And if the boiler was full very gingerly.   But they were my favourite freight loco, fast comfortable, good injectors, keep the back corners very full even with slack coal, rock the grate now and then and they would steam for Britain!  The memories of that life; I wish it had never finished but would I want too be doing it at 71? hmmm 

 

What a pity Hornby chose 7218 if it was not a good steamer.   Let's blame the fireman!      Not.  I am very aware of engines which earn the distinction of being not so good, from my own experiences in steam days, but I wasn't a fireman..

 

In any event I now wonder if Aberbeeg has a turntable or if every engine working though there was pointing inland. If so my new pic of 5239 is fatally flawed!

 

 

Very loosely based on Aberbeeg.  I could easily have made the background more open, but hey, odd workings sometimes happened? In fact,a very clean 52XX was probably rather rare?

 

cheers

 

p.s.   just received a pristine 7218, photos to come, and a heavily weathered 5231 is on the way too...  

Edited October 20, 2018 by robmcg

[Happy Hippo]

Very few Valleys sheds had turntable as the vast majority were home to tank locos only.

 

 

The habit of chimney first up the valley(s) ensured the maximum amount of water over the firebox crown which lessened the risk of losing the fusible plug.  

[The Johnster]

Aberbeeg did not have a turntable and 9Fs worked tender first down the valley on the empties.  The 9Fs were not allocated to Aberbeeg, but to Newport Ebbw Jc. shed.

 

Normal valley working had locos facing 'inland', uphill, as it was convenient in terms of keeping the firebox crown under water, as Hippo Richard says.  It was not, as is sometimes stated in respect of 0-6-2s, in order to have a leading axle for the faster downhill run; passenger timings were the same in both directions and freight work was often slower in the downhill direction, as the steeper sections involved pinning down brakes and a very cautious descent, with the loco having to pull the train down the gradient against the brakes.  There were exceptions, in inter-valley workings for example, and on the Pontypool-Neath route, and out of course working in general.

[robmcg]

Clearly I shall have to illustrate all the Ebbw Vale trains with the smokebox pointing west!

 

Thanks for the guidance.

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you for that Stationmaster.  It must have been nerve-wracking to say the least.

 

Can you advise the actual maximum load of ore-trains up to Ebbw Vale, as there appears to be some confusion about the load a pair of 2-8-0Ts could haul up the valley from Aberbeeg, likewise a pair of 9Fs (of which there do not seem to be many photos in existence on ore trains, or I don't know where to look).

 

The 9Fs (i.e.one front and one assisting rear) were allowed up to 35 wagons depending on the size of wagon used (which varied between 21 tons and 24.5 tons capacity).  i haven't got a Loads Book covering that period but I should be able to eventually calculate a load for 42XX/72XX in number of wagons but obviously it was less than for the 9Fs.  However there were operational differences because once the 9Fs arrived trains tended to be worked as through loads from Newport so were limited by the steepest gradient overall and that was between Cwm and Ebbw Vale whereas some earlier workings had been from Rogerstone Yard and were mixed loads with ore and other traffics while some were from Newport - thus loads varied if a train was likely to be put off or held at Aberbeeg.

 

The Ebbw Vale branch was part of my patch during my last few months working in South Wales but by then things were very different as iron making had ceased at Ebbw Vale and the new Victoria Sidings were with a particularly nasty short stretch of steep gradient on the realigned branch next to them while Aberbeeg itself was a minor shadow of its former self.