The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[BWsTrains]

Since our recent trip to UK I've been wondering where to post my thoughts, experiences and ramblings on the current state of Rail travel here. Having traveled widely by rail (France, Japan, Italy, Portugal, Switzerland an so on) I've plenty of comparative data to draw on. The trip.

 

First Leg London York  (late Sept) - not a great start, 5 of us had 1st Class reservations but the Departures Board announced that all Reservations were cancelled for this trip. Existing train was swapped out to a 40+ YO IC 125 in what must have been close to its original fit out. (East Midlands)

When I looked up our coach (41064 FO) I found it was an aging Mark 3 (HST) and that exact coach had been modelled by Hornby! see R4213.

 

I was amazed to find Toilets flush direct to tracks! These trains doors open by lowering the windows and reaching outside! journey was marred by huge buffeting when trains passed (unsealed carriages). So no change since I used these trains in the mid 1970s. So hopes for our 3 generations to travel by modern ECML electric rail transport were dashed.

 

Also, I noted we crossed at least 1 Diamond crossing and several gated road crossings on what is the premier high speed UK train line. Safety??

 

Second Leg York Birmingham. Another IC 125 - this had been refit internally so was a better experience in seating comfort. At one stage we were up to 17 minutes late, then amazingly became "on time". Here is the secret to train punctuality - build in so much slack you're never late! (see trip 3 below).

 

TBH I cannot believe that the state of rail travel has advanced so slowly in the UK that these aging trains are still in such active use.

 

3/4th Legs Birmingham - Worcester and return, The best travel time of 39 min still felt like there was plenty of slack in the timetable. We were drawn up for about 5-7 min and still got in on time.

 

Our last UK journey was the most memorable - a day out at SVR, pulled by Britannia 70000 riding in a heritage teak coach, our grandchildren just loved it. Now that's travelling.

 

How does this compare with our other travels?

In Italy we've used rail since 1997. In those 20 years we've seen massive improvements, from dirty old IC trains, to Pendolino. to early and now latest release FrecciaRossa 1000 (top speed 400kph). We clocked up a lazy 300kph which I suspect is the track limit. Internal comfort and settings were excellent but there's scope for better track levelling, ride was notably inferior to Japan Shinkansen. we booked 700km of travel for 75Euro each in Business class.

 

In Japan

We've done 3 trips 2007, 2016, 2017 and seen advances from the Shinkansen 300 series, (270kph) to 500 Series and most recently on the H5 (320kph) Hokkaido line.I'm looking forward to trying the Maglev to Nagoya by 2027, only a year after HS2 is planned to come on line in England.

 

Elsewhere on windy lines more like those in the UK, many advances in pneumatic tilt systems mean much better passenger experience than on pendulum types (as per the pendolino). see Super Azusa trains on The JREast Chuo line.

 

Britain is a country where rail travel ought to have the highest priority but somehow the plot has been lost and current rail experiences rank 2 or more notches below other nations' achievements. As someone proud of our railway heritage, I feel that is a very sad state of affairs.

 

Colin

Edited November 23, 2018 by BWsTrains

[BWsTrains]

I should add by way of comparison to our London - York experience, TrenItalia also had to reassign our scheduled Venice - Milan train, just yesterday morning.

 

However, unlike on the ECML where no recourse was available for our lost reservations, I received an email from TrenItalia to my iPhone which pointed me to contact the Train Manager. He had a PCD, looked up my booking and directed us to our new seat assignments in a moment. No problem.

Edited October 12, 2018 by BWsTrains

[dibber25]

In a nutshell: You're about a year too early. There are hundreds of new trains being delivered at present, some in service some being tested ready for service. The ECML has very few gated crossings - I can think of only one, at Woodthorpe near Peterborough, where the road is too narrow for lifting barriers. There's nothing inherently unsafe about diamond crossings provided they are well signalled. HSTs are being phased out at present because they don't have toilet retention systems or automatic doors. A small number are being adapted with these features so that they can run after the 2020 deadline, in Scotland and Cornwall. Yes, we are behind some other countries in certain major respects but we have a lot of catching up to do thanks to lack of investment over many decades. We are a small densely populated country where it is all but impossible to lay out high speed railway routes without blighting the lives of thousands of people by demolishing or devaluing their homes. I doubt that we will ever have high speed lines to match those of France and Japan. I, too, am proud of our railway heritage but I'm also proud of our current system which, 40 years ago was the subject of managed decline (some would say mis-managed decline) and yet is now carrying twice the number of passengers that was envisaged at that time. 

On your memorable day out at the Severn Valley, all the coaches in which you travelled will have had toilets which discharge onto the track, as it was still considered acceptable at the time they were built and even in the mid-1970s when the HSTs were built. 

Your absence from the UK clearly means that you have not followed the story as the railway here has evolved. You were clearly surprised by what you found but it might be worth doing a little research into the reasons before making sweeping criticisms. (CJL)

[BWsTrains]

Your absence from the UK clearly means that you have not followed the story as the railway here has evolved. You were clearly surprised by what you found but it might be worth doing a little research into the reasons before making sweeping criticisms. (CJL)

Not true, you can't know what I've done or not done so please do not presume.

 

I've followed many of the changes in the UK thru many visits in the last 20+ years, our best friends that we visit regularly are within ear shot of the London Birmingham line and I've admired the many changes while out walking or travelling into London. UK Railway developments do make TV in Australia, most recently the excellent Crossrail Project and I follow the progress on electrification of the line to the West Country, thru personal interest.

 

My shock from this trip was that after so long, so much of the old still remains in active use and that other Countries have been much more active with new developments. You cite the constraints of existing tracks and not wanting to use precious land, yet in Japan as I quoted they have used technology to overcome these constraints while running on existing lines. Do look up the Super AKusa trains I refer to in Post #1.

 

Finally in this connected age, contrast my two reservation cancellation experiences. At Kings Cross when I enquired "why?" and "what happens now?" the Information desk assistant was dismissive saying this often happened, nothing much can be done. In Venice, all was managed seamlessly thru the Train Managers PCD. I'll leave others to judge if this one-off data set is representative of advancements or not.

Edited October 12, 2018 by BWsTrains

[brianusa]

I would say Colin described what he found presumably on a visit from abroad; hardly sweeping criticisms.  I would agree with him on most comments but not having too much background would not care to criticise British railways further.  However, on our trips back home, we did discover much of the lore had a basis in fact but as we weren't subject to commuter woes, etc, the trains got us to where we wanted to go roughly on time and the aging HSTS were OK except perhaps we found strangers in our 1st Cl seats (dutifully ejected by the guard) and the woeful trolley service.  In earlier HST services, one could get a real nice FEB on the early morning trains

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Possibly a case of ‘unlucky dip’, because there are other parts of the railway system that are at the earlyish end of the 40 year sawtooth of renewal/upgrade and are currently ‘up with the best’. I personally think WCML is pretty impressive.

[BWsTrains]

Possibly a case of ‘unlucky dip’

Ha, you could be right.

 

You should see my track record in 2018 for buying RTR locos that run properly! I'm up to 4 returns at last count and feel so unlucky that while in UK I bought a spare motor for my brand new Hornby A1X as one had already gone back, returned as faulty.

[Nearholmer]

Better luck next year!

[dibber25]

Not true, you can't know what I've done or not done so please do not presume.

 

I've followed many of the changes in the UK thru many visits in the last 20+ years, our best friends that we visit regularly are within ear shot of the London Birmingham line and I've admired the many changes while out walking or travelling into London. UK Railway developments do make TV in Australia, most recently the excellent Crossrail Project and I follow the progress on electrification of the line to the West Country, thru personal interest.

 

My shock from this trip was that after so long, so much of the old still remains in active use and that other Countries have been much more active with new developments. You cite the constraints of existing tracks and not wanting to use precious land, yet in Japan as I quoted they have used technology to overcome these constraints while running on existing lines. Do look up the Super AKusa trains I refer to in Post #1.

 

Finally in this connected age, contrast my two reservation cancellation experiences. At Kings Cross when I enquired "why?" and "what happens now?" the Information desk assistant was dismissive saying this often happened, nothing much can be done. In Venice, all was managed seamlessly thru the Train Managers PCD. I'll leave others to judge if this one-off data set is representative of advancements or not.

 

I'm sorry. I didn't intend to upset you. Your initial post seemed to suggest you were surprised by what you found/experienced. (CJL)

[Dava]

I'd agree that standards of customer service including reservation management are variable to say the least on some TOCs.

 

East Midlands Trains has had a really dire week with late running of most peak time trains every single day on the core route to London.

Overcrowding and dirty trains just get worse.

 

"TBH I cannot believe that the state of rail travel has advanced so slowly in the UK that these aging trains [iC125] are still in such active use."

 

I'm always relieved to see a IC125 because they are still more comfortable, spacious and cleaner than more modern rubbish such as Meridians and the disgrace that is CrossCountry using Networker DMUs on long journeys.

 

Mrs Dava and I were discussing that it really was better under BR regarding service reliability, booking, crowding and on-train catering. But you have to be 40+ to remember and I'll be accused of nostalgia etc. Not so. They did not have the profiteering offshore management trousering large public subsidies in return for massive fare increases and declining service standards. Wait for January's outcry over the above-inflation fare increases to come.

 

Dava

[John M Upton]

I would say that some of the recent big ticket improvement projects have been a bit of a step backwards, take the Thameslink project for example where the shiny new rolling stock is so badly designed that commuters are actively seeking connections to alternative services with older more comfortable rolling stock that actually goes where they want to go.

 

Not all progress is progress.

[Bomag]

The exMML HST on the ECML is a welcome sight, especially when travelling in steerage. A combination of a little bit of extra comfort and space.  Much better then the highspeed stuff I came back from the continent on Thursday which is more like an airplane. Anybody who thinks a CC HST is better than EM one needs some help.

 

There was no dates but if travelling from York to Brum recently then the diversions due to Derby track works regularly resulted in trains having to occasionally wait or recover time at Burton. At least until the beginning of September it meant that you could rely on getting to Brum at the advertised time.

 

So for BWstrains your are welcome to the highspeed trains you mention. I want to keep HSTs just that bit longer on the ECML, given how awful the GW IETs are.

[black and decker boy]

It’s like any railway system, investment is cyclic. Trains are designed and accounted for a 30 year design life. Politics can (and do) meddle with investment and design life expectancy.

 

The east coast Mainline has major investment in the 70s (HST), late 80s (IC225) and is currently preparing for the IET Azuma, the finest Japanese train so they say. Sadly the IET is banned from passenger service for a multitude of reasons so it’s introduction is many months late. Progress is such that the IET on diesel power has less power and is slower than the 40 year old HST it replaces.

 

The West Coast Mainline saw major investment in the 1960s with electric loco hauled expresses. It then had to wait until the late 90s for the upgrade to tilting Pendolinos. The next upgrade will be HS2 in 8 (Phase 1) and 15 (phase 2) years time.

 

Great Western is still (after over 7 years) in the midst of an upgrade to electrify and introduce the Japanese IET trains. Trains that are proving highly unreliable. An upgrade that has been cut back severely and defies common sense (all electric express trains now fitted with heavy diesel engines so they can save putting up wires but locking the system into diesel emissions for a further 30 years).

 

My local line, Chiltern, works well, is frequent, reliable and modern. It could be improved with electrification.

[Reorte]

Sorry you didn't like it but personally it's been an awful long time since I've found anything new and "upgraded" preferable, and when it is it's only because it's replacing stuff that's worn out and knackered rather than being fundamentally more appealing. The only thing I'd really say is an improvement in what's been mentioned here is bringing to an end toilets emptying on the track, and even that doesn't affect me personally. In any case none of the newer trains are more pleasant to travel on than the HSTs (as long as you're not on one that's been refurbished to RyanAir standards), probably because they already do everything I want and need a train to do. edit: new trains tend not to break down as often either (once initial teething problems are sorted), that's definitely a big plus.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Reorte

[caradoc]

Rail in the UK is not perfect, but it seems a little unfair to write it off on the basis of four journeys, and as dibber25 pointed out major improvements are under way (although of course not everyone is happy about that !). I find the comparisons with other rail systems rather unfair; I was in Berlin for three days last month and spent a little time train watching and travelling. I noted one ICE service at Hauptbahnhof 90 minutes late, another arrived 20 minutes late and departed 25 minutes late after a number of cycles were slowly unloaded, and Regional services were running up to 15 minutes late. And I travelled to Spandau on a train where it would have been physically impossible to get any more passengers crammed into the coaches.

As to safety, it might be worth comparing the recent record of the UK against pretty much every other system in the world.

[Steamport Southport]

And I travelled to Spandau on a train where it would have been physically impossible to get any more passengers crammed into the coaches.

 

Was that for the ballet?

 

 

 

Jason

[APOLLO]

Sorry to say our railways are atrociously run, and the "service given" is both poor and getting worse.

 

Today I had to take the girls to a visit to Manchester University, and normally we would go by train from either Wigan Wallgate or North Western. For the past few weekends, including this and the next couple there are no trains from Wigan to any Manchester station due to engineering works. Fair enough, a (long) bus replacement is laid on. There are restricted other services throughout the Northern network today due to a Northern rail strike. Crap (retained - not onto track !!!!).

 

The icing on the cake is that the Trans Pennine Express Glasgow / Edinburgh - Manchester airport trains ARE running (according to Realtime Trains), however these have not stopped at Wigan NW since the new timetable - So, no trains at all Wigan - Manchester today.

 

Sod it then - last night I booked a place at NCP car park by the Uni, set off early and drove there - no problems and we've just got back.

 

Why could we not have either a skeleton rail service (Preston - Wigan - Manchester via Chat Moss - The line is open ?, or have the TPE stop at Wigan for just these weekends ?

 

Top and bottom is no one (Northern, TPE etc management AND striking workers) gives a toss about the poor suffering passenger anymore. Easier to just cancel / not give any sort of service apart from a bus service that takes nigh on 2 hours. The OP is correct - our rail service is abysmal, and despite loads of investment it's all going to pot.

 

Crap on the track is heaven - at least you are then on a train !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

Edited October 13, 2018 by APOLLO

[Barry O]

Interesting that the XPTs (a derivative of the HST) are still in use in Oz (some of the units are now 36 years old)

 

One major problem in Britain is the high levels of usage seen by most parts of our rail network and, in particular, the main lines out of London. The infrastructure has (and will continue) to need major work on upgrades as its, in places older than any other rail infrastructure in the world. This makes upgrades more complicated especially as when we do try to build "new" lines getting through the UK Planning laws is very costly and time consuming..something missing in other areas of the world. 

 

Having colleagues who work with DB their overall punctuality is nowhere near as good as people think it to be. (And perhaps it is lucky that the original ICE toilet back flush problems were eventually rectified)

 

So not all is well elsewhere in the world. Glad to see the Italians make the "Unworkable" APT tilt mechanisms work on their stock (and the pendolinos in the UK)..perhaps UK PLC should have continued with the APT?

 

We have a busy railway-- its biggest problem being age of infrastructure, an inability of a Government run department to keep hands off developments and a Government run infrastructure company who seem to have problems with estimating realistic timescales and cost.

 

Baz

[Steamport Southport]

Sorry to say our railways are atrociously run, and the "service given" is both poor and getting worse.

 

Today I had to take the girls to a visit to Manchester University, and normally we would go by train from either Wigan Wallgate or North Western. For the past few weekends, including this and the next couple there are no trains from Wigan to any Manchester station due to engineering works. Fair enough, a (long) bus replacement is laid on. There are restricted other services throughout the Northern network today due to a Northern rail strike. Crap (retained - not onto track !!!!).

 

The icing on the cake is that the Trans Pennine Express Glasgow / Edinburgh - Manchester airport trains ARE running (according to Realtime Trains), however these have not stopped at Wigan NW since the new timetable - So, no trains at all Wigan - Manchester today.

 

Sod it then - last night I booked a place at NCP car park by the Uni, set off early and drove there - no problems and we've just got back.

 

Why could we not have either a skeleton rail service (Preston - Wigan - Manchester via Chat Moss - The line is open ?, or have the TPE stop at Wigan for just these weekends ?

 

Top and bottom is no one (Northern, TPE etc management AND striking workers) gives a toss about the poor suffering passenger anymore. Easier to just cancel / not give any sort of service apart from a bus service that takes nigh on 2 hours. The OP is correct - our rail service is abysmal, loads of investment AND it's all going to pot.

 

Crap on the track is heaven - at least you are then on a train !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Yeah. I know how bad it is around here at the moment unfortunately.

 

My brother has it very bad. He works in Royal Mail in Sankey and it's normally a quick train journey from his to Sankey/Penketh. However he works nights and there often aren't any trains. So a journey of twenty minutes took him four hours this morning using buses. No rail replacement buses so he had to use scheduled services involving three or four different buses. There aren't any direct bus services as we are supposed to have a decent train service....

 

 

The railways are fine. It's just certain people involved in them that's the problem. Not the workers, but the unions and upper management. They both need a good slap. Especially the unions who are trying to politicise the dispute rather than thinking about workers rights to be able to get to/and from work.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

I think that British trains are like others, quality of experience is variable and there is an element of luck. I'd certainly agree that Japanese railways are superb, for what it's worth they are the only country I'd really say is genuinely well ahead of us across the board. If comparing my own typical experiences, whilst UK trains are far from perfect, the overall average is a lot better than generally given credit for and I think we're well up in European terms. I travel by train a lot in Europe and whilst their very high speed services are much better than ours (with the exception of Eurostar) their regional and suburban trains are no better and in many respects worse in my experience. The problem with judging from personal experience is it is both subjective and determined to a significant degree by luck, based on my own personal recent experiences I wouldn't be in a hurry to say an awful lot positive about German or Swiss trains but I suspect that may be unfairly judging both countries. I love Italian trains, but once you get off the prestige high speed services it's a slightly different story. I still sometimes go to Trieste and fly into Venice and use the train up to Venice and I can't say that I'd rate that as being any better than an equivalent British regional service.

[woodenhead]

Spent an hour at Milton Keynes this afternoon, oldest train I saw was a 221.

 

Considering it was late in the afternoon I saw 4 intermodal and countless Pendolinos plus Voyagers/350s/387s and I thought to myself, were there this many trains this late on a Saturday in the late 80s?

[Steamport Southport]

Spent an hour at Milton Keynes this afternoon, oldest train I saw was a 221.

 

Considering it was late in the afternoon I saw 4 intermodal and countless Pendolinos plus Voyagers/350s/387s and I thought to myself, were there this many trains this late on a Saturday in the late 80s?

 

I read that as a 2721 and thought "Blimey, they have got old trains". 

 

It was similar when we were at Lichfield TV not long ago. Loads of trains. None were stopping though.

 

Then an hour and a half later a packed EMU turned up.

 

 

 

Jason

[BWsTrains]

Interesting that the XPTs (a derivative of the HST) are still in use in Oz (some of the units are now 36 years old).....

 

So not all is well elsewhere in the world. Glad to see the Italians make the "Unworkable" APT tilt mechanisms work on their stock (and the pendolinos in the UK)..

Baz

Baz,

 

Two points here:

 

Re XPT: Two of the busiest air routes in the world are found in Australia.

According to flight data website OAG.com, Sydney to Melbourne is the world's second busiest air route, with 54,519 flights a year.

And Brisbane to Sydney is the eighth busiest in the world, flying 33,765 times a year.

So a 10+ hr expensive rail journey compares very poorly with a 1.5Hr flight. It means the XPT is a rarely used option except for those with time to kill or if of a sentimental disposition! Also, I doubt it goes that fast given general state of track.

 

To use the XPT to show the UK is not alone, supports my original observations.

 

Regarding Italy, The Pendolino was in use many years ago but as far as I can tell for current stock, viz.the FrecciaRossa etc., by travelling mostly on dedicated hi-speed tracks they have no need for excessive tilting, gentle banking of track suffices.

 

My only negative from this trip was that track leveling on the shared sections of routes (e.g. Brescia to Venice) could have been better as the train was running at 210kph and a degree of rocking was noticeable. The dedicated hi-speed "Freccia" sections, Turin - Brescia were fine up to 300kph.

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Baz,

 

Two points here:

 

Re XPT: Two of the busiest air routes in the world are found in Australia.

According to flight data website OAG.com, Sydney to Melbourne is the world's second busiest air route, with 54,519 flights a year.

And Brisbane to Sydney is the eighth busiest in the world, flying 33,765 times a year.

So a 10+ hr expensive rail journey compares very poorly with a 1.5Hr flight. It means the XPT is a rarely used option except for those with time to kill or if of a sentimental disposition! Also, I doubt it goes that fast given general state of track.

 

To use the XPT to show the UK is not alone, supports my original observations.

 

Regarding Italy, The Pendolino was in use many years ago but as far as I can tell for current stock, viz.the FrecciaRossa etc., by travelling mostly on dedicated hi-speed tracks they have no need for excessive tilting, gentle banking of track suffices.

 

My only negative from this trip was that track leveling on the shared sections of routes (e.g. Brescia to Venice) could have been better as the train was running at 210kph and a degree of rocking was noticeable. The dedicated hi-speed "Freccia" sections, Turin - Brescia were fine up to 300kph.

 

Colin

 

Having flown Sydney - Brisbane on a couple of occasions it is plainly obvious that air offers one significant advantage - it's quicker (which is why i chose it as I couldn't afford the time off work/out of my weekend in QLD to take the rail alternative).  But I don't consider being jammed in a Boeing 737 to be any way superior in terms of passenger to travelling on even the best of Sydney's suburban trains as they were 14 years ago.  I went by air because it was quicker - end of debate; the train doesn't figure but at the same time that doesn't mean rail travel in an XPT is better or worse than a Boeing 737 because the mode is chosen for different reasons.

 

In my experience HST borne train journeys are still generally pretty good especially with an operator that has spent some time keeping their fleet in decent working order (which is where the ECML seems to have fallen short).  But overall throughout most of the network the UK offers something which few other European countries manage outside the major conurbations - regular interval train services running to at least an hourly frequency in all but the most remote areas.  The state of the trains is both down to their age and - in far too many cases - the personal 'habits' of those who (ab)use them, you should just try cleaning a set after an operating day exposed to the great British public.  But that could also be said of trains in some other countries, including Australia (or at least NSW) and as already mentioned I'm afraid poor train timekeeping long ago ceased to be a 'British disease' - with DB being particularly good at running trains late while even SBB can't - in my personal experience - run everything on time even when there isn't snow on the line.

 

In reality there's good and bad, and indifferent, in the different aspects of rail travel all over Europe and from what I've seen that also extends to at least one state in Australia

[BWsTrains]

Mike,

 

I've no argument with your observations but my actual point was not about relative comfort interstate Rail v Air.

Virtually no-one travels by interstate rail in Australia unless for tourism (e.g The Ghan)  whereas the East Coast flight routes are among the busiest in the world.

 

Hence I was pointing out that while the XPT is still in use in Aus, this is irrelevant in the context of this topic as it's not really a serious travel option.

 

Colin