The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[Coryton]

The double-deck TGVs also have them.

 

Proper 6 person compartments with a door and everything?

[Fat Controller]

Proper 6 person compartments with a door and everything?

Closer to a 'saloon' or 'coupe' than a normal compartment.

[Mike Storey]

OK, the post rebuild situation is 4 tracks between Borough Market Junction and Metropolitan Junction (where Thameslink trains head off up to Blackfriars). These are split operationally into 2 totally separate pairs with a complete split between service groups:-

 

One pair for Thameslink which only has two platforms - one up and one down at London Bridge) , this uses the old viaduct over borough market. The timetable here is written on the basis that Thameslink trains switch over to computer control before they reach London Bridge to maximise throughput.

 

One pair for Charing Cross trains - which feeds four platforms at London Bridge (2 up and 2 down) at one end and four platforms at Waterloo East (2 up and 2 down) - this uses the new viaduct over borough Market. While these trains are still manually operated, if you have more than one platform available then you can employ the 'left, right, left right... alternating pattern for arrival / departures I described above to mitigate this.

 

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiK5cqRx_reAhVIzoUKHeoYCXUQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.londonreconnections.com%2F2014%2Fstudy-sussex-part-6-approaches-london-bridge%2F&psig=AOvVaw3JvUMb39tke0hah-D-jhzj&ust=1543613620722782

 

or https://www.railforums.co.uk/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8457%2F8032234584_fd33059bb6_c.jpg&hash=311a0e12cc1c2341571b4defa5ba43f3

 

and https://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Spider-Diagram.png

 

and https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tl-lbg-1

 

I get the intention. I don't get the comparison.

 

A half mile or so of double track (which can be used as 4 track in peturbation) in the South, compared to a c.4 mile section of double track, which also handles freight, in the North.

 

Your logic is understood, but TT modelling in the 2000's disagreed with your conclusion (both in respect of theoretical capacity, and practical performance capacity, when taking due regard of mixed DMU and EMU performance, loco performance, mixed weights, mixed rail conditions and contingency applicabilities). It may not do so now, with ATC, but then, my other points pertain.

 

I sat in the old control tower (announcer's booth) at the end of Platforms 3/4 at London Bridge E for many a month, on overtime or relief cover gigs, in the late 1970's (as well as full time at Cannon Street for three years), when it was truly a separate two track operation in each terminus direction (with six through platforms shared between the Cross and Cannons), and it did not work then, if just one train ran out of course. We "stepped up" like crazy, until we ran out of crew, just to keep it going. I didn't need a sheaf of graph paper or a whole computer programme to tell me that, and I don't need it now. That's why the project team could justify the inter-operability that has been built in to the new layout between Met Jn and Borough Market. You do not spend enormous numbers of sovs on double crossovers that won't get used.

[rockershovel]

Not strictly a personal experience, but my good wife just informed me that she has just driven to Stansted to collect a friend of hers who was facing severe delays. I didn’t get the full story but I see that trains from Stansted are currently running 45-60 mins late. There was also some detail about being rerouted via all sorts of places, possibly terminating at Cambridge, attributed to “staff shortages”.

 

My good wife doesn’t tend to show much grasp of this sort of detail, but her friend is an experienced traveller and clearly felt that she had a serious problem.

 

Can’t work it out from the websites..

[The Stationmaster]

Today's adventure took me to Kemble for my second Christmas OF's reunion meal of the season. 

 

To start the day well, not, a person and train interface occurred somewhere at the east end of Reading which threw things rather awry resulting in -

 

The good points -

 

1. Generally very good in terms of GWR staff at both stations and the driver on the 387 I joined at Twyford keeping us passengers as up to date on the picture of what was happening as they could and explaining what had happened and the effect it was having on the running of trains.

2. An ECS being run clear of Twyford on the Down Relief to allow a 387 into the platform onto which passengers could get and sit in the warm rather than waiting on the cold platform for 30 minutes. 

 

The not so good points -

 

1. Trains being very poorly regulated over the Down Main between Twyford West (Land End) and Reading with little effort being made to mingle the stoppers (which are almost 100% 387 worked) with the not much faster in today's circumstances fasts resulting in a queue stretching back over a mile from Twyford on the Down Relief while trains were moving through on the Down Main.  Not a good advertisement for traffic when you consider there are three platforms readily usable by Down trains on the Main Line side at Reading if, as iit was, the reliefs are closed east of New Jcn.

2. Passengers waiting for an Up stopper at Twyford being told to cross to the Up Main platform only to be told a few minutes later to cross back to the Up Relief platform - quite why that happened would seem to be to be beyond the realms of logical explanation as both Up Lines were clear on the London side of Twyford West running junction and the rate at which Up trains were being pushed through made it blindingly obvious that keeping a stopper on the Main almost all the way to Slough was hardly a sensible idea

 

The fortunate bonus -

 

After waiting nearly 30 minutes the train i was on from Twyford was put over onto the Down Main in front of a reverse formed Class 800.  This resulted in me having a cross-platform change at reading onto the 800 and being almost in the right place because it was the wrong way round - it turned out to be an almost connection which would originally have been substandard which I might have missed so that worked out ok for me in the end

[Mike Storey]

We just promised to babysit for our daughter and husband, who want some me-time in Leeds, on Saturday week, provided they used the train from Hebden Bridge. They said they really would, but a strike is planned for that day. Just what is still going on up there?

 

I have some (not a lot, but some) sympathy for the resistance to DOO on parts of the Southern, where platform widths and curvature do suggest that the mitigations have not been sufficiently thought through. I do have sympathy from the early days when I was a staff union rep (LDC and Sectional Council). But I have none on the Calder Valley. You can travel ticket free for most of the time, on mostly uncrowded trains. The staff are great on the rare occasions you get to meet them. But doors are often opened after significant delay (suggesting someone is not concentrating on their job) and most platforms are straight and most trains are pretty short (compared to elsewhere).

 

There is an alternative thread for DOO discussion, so I do not want to expand on the rights or wrongs of it, but I do despair at industrial action which goes on and on and on, with no real explanation.

[phil-b259]

 

 

There is an alternative thread for DOO discussion, so I do not want to expand on the rights or wrongs of it, but I do despair at industrial action which goes on and on and on, with no real explanation.

 

It doesn't take a genius to work out the REAL reasons for the strikes.

 

If a train can operate without a Guard then calling out all their Guards on strike because the TOC doen't want to offer a pay deal the RMT wants makes no difference in forcing a deal. The TOC just sits there until the RMT is beaten into submission by the fact its Guard members are running short of cash. THAT is what the RMT are acutely aware of, and while there are indeed issues over passenger security etc which can be used to hide the real reason, the bottom line is the RMT under Bob Crow was quite clear that its loyalty was only to its members and nobody else!

 

This is precisely why Messrs Grayling, Wilkinson, etc started this business in the first place - a chance to reduce staff numbers and remove the ability of one group of staff to 'hold companies to ransom' as the Conservatives would have you believe. This is shorthand for facilitating a gradual reduction in wages and staff members over time - witness Graylings recent statement that he would gladly change the method used for calculating fare increases provided railway staff also changed the measure used to calculate their pay deals

 

They have succeed in their aim on the Southern franchise - many months of industrial action the RMT made no difference in the end did it!

 

This is why the strikes on Northern and SWR continue - the TOCs are being compensated every single strike day by the DfT for lost revenue* and have zero interest in resolving the dispute - particularly as if the rumour mill is to be believed, both are looking at renegotiating their franchise contracts and can use their 'taking on the Unions' as Browne points when discussing matters with the mandarins in Whitehall.

 

* If it was left up to the companies themselves, they would probably simply stick with Guards and be done with it. Its illuminating that although Stagecoach management did consider going for DOO on the SWT franchise many times - ultimately the collapse in industrial relations with their staff, lots of strike action, and a big backlash by their users meant senior management concluded it simply wasn't worth the effort.

 

Then along came Mr Wilkinson treating to 'break' the Unions' in a speech to his Conservative mates in a Croydon meeting ** and suddenly political ideology became far more important than the needs of train users......

 

 

** https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/14/peter-wilkinson-the-man-the-unions-say-is-driving-the-southern-rail-strike http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2016/03/wilkinson-wants-hard-line-approach-to-aslef/

[jjb1970]

I don't know whether it is just the luck of the draw but I've noticed that whereas when London Midland operated the Euston - MK - Northampton trains there was far more chance of completing a journey with no onboard ticket check now it seems under LNWR it is quite unusual not to have an onboard ticket check. Whether it is LNWR management waving a stick to get the guards walking the train or something else I really don't know but there does seem to have been a massive difference. Personally I think it is fair enough, if you travel then you should buy a ticket.

[ColinK]

Going back on topic.

 

Today my Dad and myself made a trip from Lancaster to Crewe and back using Virgin Trains. The outward journey went as planned and was a pleasant uneventful journey.

 

We got to Crewe station to discover that our train home was ‘delayed’, in practice stuck between Birmingham International and New Street due to ‘a person being hit by a train’. I have to say that Virgin handled this brilliantly. A Euston - Glasgow service made an extra stop at Crewe to pick up everyone waiting for the delayed (later cancelled) service. While an extra service was run from Preston to Glasgow in place of the cancelled service. We were kept informed throughout and got home a little late, but very impressed by the way Virgin handled the problem and got everyone moving quickly and effecienty.

 

Perhaps the greatest suprise was when approaching Preston the lady train manager advised anyone looking a Realtime Trains to ignore the info saying there was a train in platform 3 for Glasgow as that service was not running (it was the cancelled train), instead look for an extra service at 1620.

 

It is often said that the real test of an organisation is how it reacts when things go wrong. Virgin did an outstanding job today.

[caradoc]

* If it was left up to the companies themselves, they would probably simply stick with Guards and be done with it. Its illuminating that although Stagecoach management did consider going for DOO on the SWT franchise many times - ultimately the collapse in industrial relations with their staff, lots of strike action, and a big backlash by their users meant senior management concluded it simply wasn't worth the effort.

 

 

phil-b259, I was under the impression that SWR had agreed to roster a Guard on every train, the sticking point now being that if no Guard was available the train would still run DOO, which the RMT will not accept ? And I fully agree that while enough staff should be employed to cover every shift, I also know from my own experience that exceptional circumstances will always occur, and is it better then to run a train DOO, or just cancel it instead ?

[Grovenor]

I would be much happier with DOO on every train so the drivers were kept practised with the job.

Just doing DOO on the odd occasion a guard fails to turn up gives a bigger risk of mistakes. IMHO.

Rgds

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's been mentioned elsewhere that South Western Railway franchise is not doing so well as hoped.

 

I have not had any personal experience but noted this morning when taking my wife to catch a train at Gillingham at 08.11 that the car park was half empty. It used to be full every day.

[woodenhead]

Weren't there plans a few years ago, with the building of Port Salford (is that still happening?) to run the freights in the opposite direction, towards the WCML?

Correct, except Port Salford is still a wasteland, they built the bridge abutments across the new road for the connection with the Chat Moss route but Peel didn't open the new road after getting into dispute as to who would adopt it and the lifting bridge (which dropped to the ground a year earlier).

 

The road opened last Christmas but since then Peel has focussed on more road based logistics and retail opportunities over infrastructure work with the second phase of the road works not started either. The lifting bridge still hasn't been adpopted and other planning decisions deferred by the councils in the now long running dispute. I guess also the TfN plans for the region will play a part in how this all develops.

 

So that means at the moment and for the foreseeable future Intermodal services need to pass down the Oxford Rd corridor, when you consider an intermodal stopped at Piccadilly will still foul a platform, albeit lesser used, at Oxford Rd then you can see the problem. Passenger trains can also get stuck at Trafford Park if an arriving intermodal needs to enter either of the terminals.

[woodenhead]

Footnote: oh how we all miss the Fallowfield loop now as all these intermodal trains could have gone via Gotrton, Ashburys, Miles Platting and then Victoria 66 hauled to Crewe via Chat Moss

[phil-b259]

phil-b259, I was under the impression that SWR had agreed to roster a Guard on every train, the sticking point now being that if no Guard was available the train would still run DOO, which the RMT will not accept ? And I fully agree that while enough staff should be employed to cover every shift, I also know from my own experience that exceptional circumstances will always occur, and is it better then to run a train DOO, or just cancel it instead ?

 

That is exactly what GTR said in the Southern dispute - they would continue to roster a 'On Board Supervisor' (i.e. a Guard) on every service, but wanted the option available to run the train on DOO if the rostered OBS became unavailable (e.g. went sick, delayed due road / rail disruption and no spare was available, etc)

 

However the RMTs position is VERY clear - as far as they are concerned NO passenger train should operate without a Qualified Guard being present* (regardless of who operates the doors). No ifs, no buts - no Guard (or OBS, etc) = no train regardless of the disruption / inconvenience this may cause for passengers.

 

* They have an active policy of demanding an end to DOO on routes it already applies by the way

 

To them it doesn't mater why the Guard is unavailable - if there is a shortage then no doubt they would claim its because the TOC are not recruiting enough staff so as to provide spares to cover disruption. Of course this action also swells Union membership as well as a nod towards the socialist utopia they ardently want to happen.

 

Of course the big fear the RMT have (and one which may be justified based on past experience) is that once they give a bit of ground and accept the principle of 'no Guard in unforeseen circumstances' - the TOCs with encouragement of a Conservative anti-union Government will seek to progressively loosen the definition of 'unforeseen circumstances to a point where practically anything can be claimed to be an 'unforeseen circumstances' - with the net result that it becomes extremely easy to do away with Guards altogether or take a hatchet to their pay / T&Cs in the knowledge that there will be no repercussions.

 

What is really needed to solve this dispute is both sides having the confidence to offer concessions AND CRUCIALLY also have the confidence that the other party will not subsequently pull a fast one. In other words you need good industrial relations - the very thing the UK lacks while we have a certain Mr Wilkinson and his free market fanatics pulling the strings behind the scenes*

 

* Note:- Not only is Mr Wilkinson still very much at the heart of the DfT rail division, he has never actually apologised for what he actually said**, he simply apologised for getting caught saying it in public.-

 

** “I’m furious about it and it has got to change – we have got to break them,” Wilkinson said. “They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can’t afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place. They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry.”

Edited December 14, 2018 by phil-b259

[rockershovel]

..... doesn’t that rather overlook the third possibility, of being forced out whether they want to “give a good service” or not?

 

I largely abandoned attempting to earn a living in the U.K., long ago. I’m back now, but I could retire any time I saw fit, so there’s no pressure. Industrial relations here are completely unworkable, no one has any trust in any one, in either direction, and for good reason. Why should RMT focus on anyone but its paying members, after all?

 

Contract work in the oil sector can be fairly Darwinian, it has its “red in tooth and claw” moments, but anyone involved knows that, no one pretends otherwise and there is always the chance of making a shilling or two. I’ve had my ups and downs but ultimately, I’ve earned more than I would doing anything else, I’m sure of that.

Edited December 14, 2018 by rockershovel

[4630]

We just promised to babysit for our daughter and husband, who want some me-time in Leeds, on Saturday week, provided they used the train from Hebden Bridge. They said they really would, but a strike is planned for that day. Just what is still going on up there?

 

 

 

I'm sure you've probably already checked but just in case, on strike Saturdays - which is most/all of them at the moment - there has generally been an hourlyish Northern service from Hebden Bridge to/from Leeds.

 

The alternative, if wanting to make the journey by train, is a relatively short car drive to Huddersfield and get a TransPennine Express service serving Leeds from there.  Although Huddersfield Town are at home to Newcastle on Saturday 15th and Southampton 22nd, so some afternoon TPE services might be (even more) busier than usual.  

Edited December 14, 2018 by 4630

[Mike Storey]

I'm sure you've probably already checked but just in case, on strike Saturdays - which is most/all of them at the moment - there has generally been an hourlyish Northern service from Hebden Bridge to/from Leeds.

 

The alternative, if wanting to make the journey by train, is a relatively short car drive to Huddersfield and get a TransPennine Express service serving Leeds from there.  Although Huddersfield Town are at home to Newcastle on Saturday 15th and Southampton 22nd, so some afternoon TPE services might be (even more) busier than usual.  

 

Many thanks - they would not be persuaded!! Apparently, my son-in-law tried to use this skeleton service a few Saturdays ago, and it was standing room all the way.

[17A]

My most recent experience of the UK railway have been very good. I'll try to compile my weeks holiday back in October as short as possible.

 

Thinking ahead and trying to save, split ticketing helped cut the cost of my travels plus using a rail card. For those that don't know the split ticketing means changing at a station where you wouldn't normally change or staying on the same train but one ticket ends while a new ticket begins at the same station.   

 

So starting on 22nd October off from Gunton to Keighley £10.00 ish one-way. Changing at Norwich, Ely, Peterborough and Leeds. There was a small delay outside of Doncaster, missed connection at Leeds nothing to spoil as I only waited tops of 25 miniutes for the Skipton train. Change at Keighley for a bus to Haworth YHA. 23rd I was in pure midland heaven on the KWVR worth a visit. 

 

24th October is where the split ticketing comes into it's own, Keighley to Ruabon £16.00 ish one-way. Changing at Shipley, Leeds, Liverpool lime street, Bidston and Wrexham with split ticketing at Huddersfield and Conway Park. I nearly missed my connection at Shipley for going on the wrong platform, apart from this, trains where on time to say how far I was going. Changing at Ruabon to catch the bus to Llangollen Hostel. 25th October an explore along the Llangollen canal, walked to Trevor and back (Felt like a hell of a long way when walking from Llangollen via Castell Dinas Brân).

 

Final stint on the 26th October Raubon to Evesham £22.00 ish. Changing at Smethwick Galton Bridge and Worcester Shrub Hill only. Split ticketing at Chirk and Smethwick Galton Bridge. 27th October I was on the GWSR to say a final far well to my granddad by putting his ashes in the firebox, Being a midland man I have to say 7820 'Dinmore Manor' what a bit of kit footplate ride I'll never forget, just a wee bit cold.

 

All in all to travel from Gunton to Evesham for £48.00 one-way with railcard via everything inbetween, I'd say the rail system and the bus services that I used is pretty dam good.             

Edited December 18, 2018 by 17A

[royaloak]

At risk of infecting another thread with DOO discussion but I had to reply to this-

* If it was left up to the companies themselves, they would probably simply stick with Guards and be done with it. Its illuminating that although Stagecoach management did consider going for DOO on the SWT franchise many times - ultimately the collapse in industrial relations with their staff, lots of strike action, and a big backlash by their users meant senior management concluded it simply wasn't worth the effort.

At no time during Stagecoach's tenure of the franchise did SWT consider DOO (unless you can provide any actual proof) simply because a certain Scottish businessman (first name Brian) was against DOO, it was only when Farce Group put in their bid for the franchise did DOO rear its ugly head, Stagecoach were not interested in offering a DOO option in their bid, and surprise surprise the bid including DOO was accepted, so have a guess who I think have caused all the disruption?

 

I still find it quite telling that none of the franchises trying to implement DOO have approached ASLEF yet, I wonder why that is?

 

ASLEF cannot be in dispute until they have been officially approached, I know ASLEF at Northern (several times) and TPE (a couple of times) have asked their respective Managements about DOO but have been told "no comment" on all occasions, SWR drivers already have DOO written in their contracts from DRI 3 (I think it was) so cannot do anything to stop it.

Edited December 18, 2018 by royaloak

[Mike Storey]

At risk of infecting another thread with DOO discussion but I had to reply to this-

At no time during Stagecoach's tenure of the franchise did SWT consider DOO (unless you can provide any actual proof) simply because a certain Scottish businessman (first name Brian) was against DOO, it was only when Farce Group put in their bid for the franchise did DOO rear its ugly head, Stagecoach were not interested in offering a DOO option in their bid, and surprise surprise the bid including DOO was accepted, so have a guess who I think have caused all the disruption?

 

I still find it quite telling that none of the franchises trying to implement DOO have approached ASLEF yet, I wonder why that is?

 

ASLEF cannot be in dispute until they have been officially approached, I know ASLEF at Northern (several times) and TPE (a couple of times) have asked their respective Managements about DOO but have been told "no comment" on all occasions, SWR drivers already have DOO written in their contracts from DRI 3 (I think it was) so cannot do anything to stop it.

 

Seriously??

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/rail-unions-divided-over-75kayear-pay-deal-which-could-end-misery-for-southern-rail-commuters-a3666331.html

Edited December 20, 2018 by Mike Storey

[phil-b259]

At risk of infecting another thread with DOO discussion but I had to reply to this-

At no time during Stagecoach's tenure of the franchise did SWT consider DOO (unless you can provide any actual proof) simply because a certain Scottish businessman (first name Brian) was against DOO, it was only when Farce Group put in their bid for the franchise did DOO rear its ugly head, Stagecoach were not interested in offering a DOO option in their bid, and surprise surprise the bid including DOO was accepted, so have a guess who I think have caused all the disruption?

 

Lots of things get discussed at CEO / boardroom level that never get far enough down the food chain to trouble day to day operations and its somewhat naive to assume that you or I will always get to hear about it - particularly if said top management reject it.

 

Provided the plan / concept / idea remains a 'table top' / brainstorming type of exercise there is even no technical need to consult with the Unions, etc - that only comes when management have advanced the idea into a actual proposal and they want to start to take it forward to the next stage.

 

There have been plenty of (admittedly oblique) references in the specialist railway press over the years to the fact that SWT did in its early days consider (at a high level that is) and subsequently rejected (again at a high level within the organisation) DOO precisely because the harm (both reputational and financial) a prolonged industrial dispute would cause while they overcame Union resistance.

 

This is how it should be - a company of whether its private or public and regardless of what it does should always be receptive to suggestions. The skill is being able to work out which ones work and which ones don't.

 

Without strong Government support going for DOO has too many negatives compared to positives, which is why no TOC attempted it until the current Conservative administration started making it clear thats what they wanted future franchise bidders to do (and were willing to make good the financial losses which would ensue due to strike action)

[BWsTrains]

Seriously??

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/rail-unions-divided-over-75kayear-pay-deal-which-could-end-misery-for-southern-rail-commuters-a3666331.html

Mike,

 

A delightful twist which brings us right back on topic!

 

The IC125 which started this topic 248 posts ago had to have it's stylish cab redesigned (dumbed down) because unions insisted that this new fangled train just HAD to have two drivers. Nice to see that not much changes in Old Blighty!

Any progress with Brunetti?

 

Happy Christmas all.

 

Colin

[Coryton]

Mike,

 

A delightful twist which brings us right back on topic!

 

The IC125 which started this topic 248 posts ago had to have it's stylish cab redesigned (dumbed down) because unions insisted that this new fangled train just HAD to have two drivers. Nice to see that not much changes in Old Blighty!

Any progress with Brunetti?

 

Happy Christmas all.

 

Colin

 

I'm not sure how many people you would get to agree that the prototype HST cab was more stylish than the production version. Or indeed at all stylish come to think of it.

[phil-b259]

Mike,

 

A delightful twist which brings us right back on topic!

 

The IC125 which started this topic 248 posts ago had to have it's stylish cab redesigned (dumbed down) because unions insisted that this new fangled train just HAD to have two drivers. Nice to see that not much changes in Old Blighty!

Any progress with Brunetti?

 

Happy Christmas all.

 

Colin

 

Actually it turned out to be a blessing in disguise because the livery designer (yes he was not hired to actually design the cab shape, he took that upon himself without BRs permission), was able to convince BR to drop conventional buffers and come up with a much better looking design.

Edited December 20, 2018 by phil-b259