The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[BWsTrains]

No contention about overt, State and Tourist department Italian passion for their heritage Colin. My wife's family is half-Italian and we have some intimate knowledge of their views, as well as going there at least annually. From personal experience, the average Italian, at least in the north, does not give a sh1t, unless it somehow makes money, and reduces their taxes. What they really care about is food, appearance, music and family, but all together with money.

 

Your example of Bologna is misplaced. I attended, as part of a delegation from Railtrack Major Stations, a series of meetings with FS Grande Stazione (modelled almost exactly on what we had created) in the late 1990's/early 2000's, in Rome, Milan and Bologna. They wanted our opinion on their plans for almost total demolition of around 15 of their largest stations, and replacement by what they perceived as our greatest achievement at the time (actually BR's) at Liverpool Street and Euston, and wanted to leech our retailing experience (which was seriously good at the time). The Bologna plan recognised no cultural or architectural heritage, just prospective earnings per square metre. The Rome plan was similar, but demolition was largely underground. The Milan plan was even more adventurous (they believed it would be their most profitable). We knifed all of their plans, when we analysed them, saying the ROC was heroic, and the underlying assumptions unsupported. We were unwilling  to enter into the partnership they wanted.

 

True, this was before the High Speed network plan had become fully developed (let alone funded) but it was there as an underlying assumption (hence their over-optimistic footfall predictions). I would earnestly suggest that the retention of certain architectural heritage is almost incidental (there is little of any real heritage in Bologna, given what their minor industrial revolution and Mussolini's efforts did to the city) and that they merely found the best combination of cost versus potential income and went with that. It is certainly not true in Milan, where resistance to major excavations and disruption were far more effective. It is also very true to say that Turin, its third most rich city, has been almost destroyed by the pursuit of Mammon. My in-laws come from the Assisi area, and I have full knowledge of that. Only Venice and certain of the North East cities/towns with huge dependence on tourism, are defying the inevitability of "progress", and that is largely with the enormous help of UK and US beneficiaries.

 

So, along with the enormous fiscal corruption in the south, and the corruption of power in the north (epitomised by La Liga), I would hesitate to use Italy as an example of balanced planning, fantastic though the Alta Velocita network is now proving to be.

Mike,

 

Really? Your reply raises a few issues.

 

I was referring to the high Speed era in Italy where much has been achieved in the last 20 years which, as you acknowledge, is after the time you describe. A period of successful change achieved while preserving the considerable heritage dotted everywhere in Italy. Attitudes and achievements WRT Rail clearly have advanced, i.e. my point.

 

I never suggested it was an example of "balanced" planning, I was just noting the relative achievements between countries, both justifiably proud of their heritage.

 

Regarding Turin, your comment surprises me having just visited and explored extensively on foot over a few days, admiring block after block of marvelous intact heritage. Didn't see evidence of "almost destroyed", for example this looked to be still in rather good shape.

 

 

I think you need to explore further in Bologna, a very small city yet with many old and historic well preserved buildings for it's size, where we also spent a few days on foot. The Cathedral, Le Due Torri, Oldest University in the World, Cassini's Meridian Line, these and more which would be treasured in any city.

 

Colin, 

[jjb1970]

I think the most impressive example of building a new station into an old historic shell is Antwerp. The multi-level open layout of the rebuilt station is remarkable. However my local friends are quite critical of it and I can see that it could be quite a confusing station to navigate if changing trains.

[Zomboid]

Aside from there not being enough MML platforms, I think St Pancras is a pretty first rate example of seriously and sympathetically updating an old station for modern purposes. I haven't been to many of the examples cited, but I haven't yet seen anything notably better.

[BWsTrains]

I think the most impressive example of building a new station into an old historic shell is Antwerp. The multi-level open layout of the rebuilt station is remarkable. However my local friends are quite critical of it and I can see that it could be quite a confusing station to navigate if changing trains.

Great example; I'd forgotten that as it's been a few years now but it's exactly what I was getting at, viz. it can be done if there's a will

 

Colin

[JDW]

Aside from there not being enough MML platforms, I think St Pancras is a pretty first rate example of seriously and sympathetically updating an old station for modern purposes. I haven't been to many of the examples cited, but I haven't yet seen anything notably better.

 

Agreed - the refurbished part looks fantastic.  But the new extension just doen't do it for me, it seems so unspectacular and bland, in comparison to, say, the new atrium at Kings Cross across the road. OK, they're on a totally different scale and budget, but still, it just makes me look at it and think that in 30 years time the new bit will be like lots of the 1960s and 1970s architecture that has lasted a few decades and now looks very dated, in a bad way.

[The Stationmaster]

Agreed - the refurbished part looks fantastic.  But the new extension just doen't do it for me, it seems so unspectacular and bland, in comparison to, say, the new atrium at Kings Cross across the road. OK, they're on a totally different scale and budget, but still, it just makes me look at it and think that in 30 years time the new bit will be like lots of the 1960s and 1970s architecture that has lasted a few decades and now looks very dated, in a bad way.

 

The problem with St Pancras was that in the end it was redeveloped down to a cost with the result that a lot of flexibility was taken out of the proposed track layout (although that probably wasn't a bad thing overall in some respects) and the International platforms and facilities are nowhere near as good as those were at waterloo due to a mixture of site constraints and budgetary constraints. Hence turnround of international trains takes considerably longer, for exactly the same trains with similar passenger loadings, at St Pancras than it did at Waterloo meaning the number of International platforms is inadequate (although the number of international platforms plus those used by the Javelin services has never matched the capacity offered by CTRL aka HS1).   There was in earlier proposals a potential additional international platform but it was rather peculiar in being able to be used for either international or domestic services and it was dropped - sensibly so in my view as it didn't really offer anything really useful for either sort of train.

 

Overall I very much like the new St Pancras but there are a number of practical areas where it falls short of the ideal in terms of station working and capacity.

 

Antwerp Central is an extremely clever adaptation and was very specifically planned to avoid excessive damage to the existing main structure while vastly increasing capacity and creating through platforms.  in that respect it has undoubtedly succeeded - but it cost a very large amount of money and it was constructed in the SNCB way which while far from dangerous would have had many UK safety inspectors (and railway operators) pulling out their hair if they'd seen what was happening and how certain things were done while work was in progress.  (As far as I know only one collision involving a passenger train has resulted from SNCB's methods while constructing/altering infrastructure, a very different approach from what should happen in the UK - think the recent Report about the Waterloo collision and start from a rather different place.)

[Reorte]

I think Manchester Piccadilly has done a very good job of refurbishing, incorporating some new into the old (just a pity I usually seem to end up on platforms 13 and 14!)

[Mike Storey]

I think Manchester Piccadilly has done a very good job of refurbishing, incorporating some new into the old (just a pity I usually seem to end up on platforms 13 and 14!)

 

That's nice to know it is appreciated. I was co-sponsor on that job.

[Reorte]

That's nice to know it is appreciated. I was co-sponsor on that job.

And I'm usually very much an "everything new is unpleasant rubbish" type of person.

[ColinK]

I think Manchester Piccadilly has done a very good job of refurbishing, incorporating some new into the old (just a pity I usually seem to end up on platforms 13 and 14!)

Agree. However, more recently the waiting room has been demolished on the Oxford Road end of P13/14. It means there is no shelter from the wind and rain anymore. I just can’t see the sense in it as intending passengers now get cold and wet.

[Mike Storey]

Mike,

 

Really? Your reply raises a few issues.

 

I was referring to the high Speed era in Italy where much has been achieved in the last 20 years which, as you acknowledge, is after the time you describe. A period of successful change achieved while preserving the considerable heritage dotted everywhere in Italy. Attitudes and achievements WRT Rail clearly have advanced, i.e. my point.

 

I never suggested it was an example of "balanced" planning, I was just noting the relative achievements between countries, both justifiably proud of their heritage.

 

Regarding Turin, your comment surprises me having just visited and explored extensively on foot over a few days, admiring block after block of marvelous intact heritage. Didn't see evidence of "almost destroyed", for example this looked to be still in rather good shape.

 

IMG_1208.JPG

 

I think you need to explore further in Bologna, a very small city yet with many old and historic well preserved buildings for it's size, where we also spent a few days on foot. The Cathedral, Le Due Torri, Oldest University in the World, Cassini's Meridian Line, these and more which would be treasured in any city.

 

Colin, 

 

We are approaching from two different angles Colin, and I accept what you say about the touristy bits. My approach has been from living, working and eating, especially in Torino, and much of what I remember when we were first married has disappeared in favour of office blocks, chain restaurants and strange modernist towers here and there, together with a refurbished, disused station, that houses some old locos, but which no-one can see because there has been no agreement over how to manage the building.

 

As for touristy bits of heritage, much of what you were looking at in Bologna are 20th Century facsimiles, rebuilds financed by the Marshall Plan after WW2 bombs practically destroyed the city centre. The same is partly true of Torino, but the most heritage effort is going into how to preserve the old FIAT HQ, and not into salvaging key parts of what is left of the old medieval town which is falling into disrepair, and has been left as a low rent, sub-standard accommodation district for the immigrants that FIAT and the other big corporations need to keep their companies competitive.

 

In Torino, check out the disastrous Spina Centrale plan (which is designed to put the Torino-Milano line underground) which has stalled for a decade or more, and has blighted a rash through much of the old centre that I remember, for all that time. Modern Italy is not a pretty sight underneath its pretty petticoats.

 

However, this is OT for this thread, so maybe we can discuss elsewhere?

[Richard E]

Mentioning Torino and war damage reminds me that a dud RAF bomb went through a bedroom of my grandparents penthouse apartment and bounced off the road before ending up in the building the other side of the road ....

 

I have fond memories of 'trainspotting' in Turin and a few old black and white photos I took too.

[rockershovel]

I found the reconstructed BNS station a very functional structure. I’m not much grieved that’s its almośt impossible to get a clear perspective of the “half-melted chromium blob” of the exterior, though. The new KX is a vast improvement over the crowded, draughty, dysfunctional slum it replaced, although not having a proper Underground entrance under the overall roof is a serious error, in my view.

[Ron Ron Ron]

......... The new KX is a vast improvement over the crowded, draughty, dysfunctional slum it replaced, although not having a proper Underground entrance under the overall roof is a serious error, in my view.

There is an Underground entrance inside, as well as the one outside.

It's just not signposted that well.

[rockershovel]

There is an Underground entrance inside, as well as the one outside.

It's just not signposted that well.

So there is - but I said “a proper Underground entrance”. It isn’t only not signposted, but I usually use the outside one because it’s more convenient. Edited November 23, 2018 by rockershovel

[BWsTrains]

As an interesting benchmark, I came across this during our last Japan rail Holiday.

 

The composite image below from the Nagoya JR SCMAGLEV and Railway Park shows the development of travel between Tokyo and Osaka over a 50 Year period. A time which included Japan’s huge Financial “bust” of 1991 and “Lost Decade” followed by the Global Financial Crisis of 2008 2009.

In this context, what has been achieved is remarkable.

 

(click on image for better view of the detail)

 

Read the six charts as follows: Tokyo top, Osaka bottom, Timeline Left to right.

Coloured lines reflect the different Classes of service, number of stops etc.

The key takeaways are:

• the steepening slopes of all services = shortening journey times
• Frequency per hour, from 2ph in 1964 to 20ph now.

Standard time now by fastest Nozomi Trains (yellow lines in Charts) for the 553km journey is 153min (216kph average with 4 stops).

Next stage, Maglev Tokyo to Nagoya 2027 - can't wait!

 

Having seen the number of Pendolinos going up thru Berhamsted on the West Coast ML, I imagine a similar improvement chart of that service would likewise be impressive in terms of frequency at least.

 

Colin

Edited November 23, 2018 by BWsTrains

[woodenhead]

Apart from the 

 

 

Apart from the urgently needed completion of the Bolton route electrification, which will ease matters AFAIK from snippets I have read, the DfT needs to urgently authorise the four tracking between Oxford Road and Piccadilly. Quite why this was "paused", when a few planning issues were hit, after the huge expense and effort of creating the Ordsall Chord, the full benefits of which will never be fully realised without it.

It wasn't four tracking between Picc and Oxford Rd AFAIK -  it was just adding 2 new platforms to Piccadilly and extending the platforms at Oxford Rd  - the plans I saw did not have any increase in tracks - it is extremely built up, the plans did allow an extra 4 trains per hour from 12 to 16.

[woodenhead]

Agree. However, more recently the waiting room has been demolished on the Oxford Road end of P13/14. It means there is no shelter from the wind and rain anymore. I just can’t see the sense in it as intending passengers now get cold and wet.

I think they would prefer people to loiter upstairs rather than on the platform, it did seem to attract some odd people down there.

[rockershovel]

I’ve been to Japan, and God forfend that we ever NEED a train service of Japanese standards here.

 

I found it hideously, grossly overcrowded, with staggering property prices (three-generation mortgage, anyone?) and tremendous numbers of commuters travelling 2hours plus each way, at great cost. Those “capsule hotels” don’t exist because they are convenient or comfortable, you know (although Premier Inns seem to be trying to convince us otherwise, lately)

[jjb1970]

Japan is the one country that I really do think makes ours look a bit poor. The absolute commitment to reliability, the service intensity and dependability of the service is remarkable. I've never used a rail system quite like it, none of the ones I've sampled come close.

[Mike Storey]

It wasn't four tracking between Picc and Oxford Rd AFAIK -  it was just adding 2 new platforms to Piccadilly and extending the platforms at Oxford Rd  - the plans I saw did not have any increase in tracks - it is extremely built up, the plans did allow an extra 4 trains per hour from 12 to 16.

 

I can assure you the original plans required four tracks all the way. That gave the greatest flexibility and numbers of paths, which forward demand forecasts suggested was vital. I led the RT Enhancements planning team, under Roger Dickinson, that progressed the proposals (we did not invent them, they had been around for a decade or more by then) but we were still working on getting to GRIP 4, by the time I was moved on to the Olympics in 2005/6 (having done much of the Commonwealth Games transport planning at Manchester when I was in Major Stations previously, and when David Franks, who was MD at FNW then, would give me grief almost every morning and night on the chaos that often ensued at Oxford Road and Picc 13/14 due to Quart into Pint bottle syndrome).

 

No doubt, a pared down plan was attempted, as you describe, to get costs and planning issues down, but that will be highly sub-optimal. I guess we will have to wait and see what is approved as part of the Trans-Pennine upgrade. It would appear that TfN are still pushing for a "new" route between Leeds and Manchester, but it's not clear how much of that uses existing formation. Presumably its not worth progressing anything on the ground until such plans are known in detail, approved and funded.

[Coryton]

Japan is the one country that I really do think makes ours look a bit poor. The absolute commitment to reliability, the service intensity and dependability of the service is remarkable. I've never used a rail system quite like it, none of the ones I've sampled come close.

 

I was perhaps somewhat unlucky but in the spirit of judging countries on fairly anecdotal evidence I will point out that from a small number of journeys on the Japanese narrow gauge network one train I caught was significantly late.

 

 Those “capsule hotels” don’t exist because they are convenient or comfortable, you know (although Premier Inns seem to be trying to convince us otherwise, lately)

 

I thought they were for people who missed the last Shinkansen train when the system shuts down for overnight maintenance.

[phil-b259]

Agree. However, more recently the waiting room has been demolished on the Oxford Road end of P13/14. It means there is no shelter from the wind and rain anymore. I just can’t see the sense in it as intending passengers now get cold and wet.

 

That was done as part of a deliberate strategy to try and prevent passengers hanging round on platforms 13 / 14 unless their train was due soon.

 

I understand that at peak times this platform can get dangerously overcrowded so making more space - and also removing facilities that might encourage folk to wait there for long periods was an attempt to mitigate that.

 

Of course what we really need is 2 extra platforms at the minimum.

[phil-b259]

I can assure you the original plans required four tracks all the way. That gave the greatest flexibility and numbers of paths, which forward demand forecasts suggested was vital. I led the RT Enhancements planning team, under Roger Dickinson, that progressed the proposals (we did not invent them, they had been around for a decade or more by then) but we were still working on getting to GRIP 4, by the time I was moved on to the Olympics in 2005/6 (having done much of the Commonwealth Games transport planning at Manchester when I was in Major Stations previously, and when David Franks, who was MD at FNW then, would give me grief almost every morning and night on the chaos that often ensued at Oxford Road and Picc 13/14 due to Quart into Pint bottle syndrome).

 

No doubt, a pared down plan was attempted, as you describe, to get costs and planning issues down, but that will be highly sub-optimal. I guess we will have to wait and see what is approved as part of the Trans-Pennine upgrade. It would appear that TfN are still pushing for a "new" route between Leeds and Manchester, but it's not clear how much of that uses existing formation. Presumably its not worth progressing anything on the ground until such plans are known in detail, approved and funded.

 

But is 4 tracking really needed throughout? I draw your attention to the fact that London Bridge - Waterloo East still only consists of a double track railway BUT what has been done is to ensure the stations at both ends have 4 platforms available for trains passing between.

 

Given passenger trains need to stop and allow significant quantities of passengers on and off, an extra pair of platforms at Piccadilly, extended platforms at Oxford Road and a suitably designed throat layout at both locations (that removes signalling restrictions so as to facilitate the situation where one train is arriving / departing while another is undertaking station duties) would achieve much the same thing as continious 4 tracking.

 

It goes without saying of course that freight needs kicking off the corridor however

[Coryton]

 

It goes without saying of course that freight needs kicking off the corridor however

 

The freight companies might not take the same view.