The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[phil-b259]

The freight companies might not take the same view.

 

They might not - but freight doesn't go through London Bridge does it!* The Southern Railway specifically built new chords and reopened lines to make that happen as they recognised back in the 1930s that a frequent urban metro service or fast services out to the country don't mix well with freight and if needs be the same sort of thing has to happen in Manchester so be it.

 

Whilst, thanks to the decisions of the past I acknowledge it will be difficult to remove all freight from Manchester City Centre, every effort needs to be made to get rid of as much as possible from the critical cross city sections and not just  take the attitude 'everything is equal' attitude.

 

* I acknowledge the gauge restricted snow hill tunnels are not able to accommodate modern freight needs even if there were paths - but up until the 1960s it was heavily used by traditional goods trains so the principle still stands.

Edited November 24, 2018 by phil-b259

[railsquid]

On Mk.3 doors I have seen a few people who needed to be helped as they couldn't figure out how to open the door and who were frantically looking for the button to make it work. I remember the first time I saw it I found it highly amusing then I sort of realised that the idea of leaning out of a window to use an outside door handle is a rather dated idea to say the least and for people who don't travel on trains very often it must be one of those things you just wouldn't think of doing (I'm struggling to think of anything else where you hang out of a window to use an outside door handle). Especially when power operated doors have been the norm on so many trains for so long now.

 

You should have seen the expression on the face of my Japanese wife when we arrived at Hereford in 2014 (2014, not 1984 or even 1994) on an HST set and I explained how to open the door...

 

I won't even mention the return journey, when we were turfed out at Worcester due to some failure in the quaint but antique signalling system, put onto a bus (fortunately I am wily to the ways of British railways and marched to the ticket office and demanded very precise details about where this bus would be actually picking people up from, because there were no clues otherwise), and we (well I) ended up directing fellow passengers... Said bus did a tour of Worcester's one-way system then dropped us right back off at the station (albeit on the opposite side of the road) where we were directed to wait for a larger bus, which did eventually turn up to take us on a scenic tour of the Cotswolds (actually not entirely unpleasant) before turfing us off at Oxford to pile (under our own initiative) onto a hopelessly overcrowded London-bound TurboSardineCan where we eventually arrived about 3 hours late.

 

And I won't even start to talk about the sheer hopelessness and futility of attempting to purchase London Underground tickets with cash.

Edited November 24, 2018 by railsquid

[railsquid]

I’ve been to Japan, and God forfend that we ever NEED a train service of Japanese standards here.

 

I found it hideously, grossly overcrowded, with staggering property prices (three-generation mortgage, anyone?) and tremendous numbers of commuters travelling 2hours plus each way, at great cost. Those “capsule hotels” don’t exist because they are convenient or comfortable, you know (although Premier Inns seem to be trying to convince us otherwise, lately)

 

When were you last in Japan, in the late 1980s?

[railsquid]

 

In Japan

We've done 3 trips 2007, 2016, 2017 and seen advances from the Shinkansen 300 series, (270kph) to 500 Series and most recently on the H5 (320kph) Hokkaido line.I'm looking forward to trying the Maglev to Nagoya by 2027, only a year after HS2 is planned to come on line in England.

 

Elsewhere on windy lines more like those in the UK, many advances in pneumatic tilt systems mean much better passenger experience than on pendulum types (as per the pendolino). see Super Azusa trains on The JREast Chuo line.

 

Those tilting Super Azusa trains (E351 series for anyone taking notes) are, as of earlier this year, a pile of scrap. Here's the last set I saw running:

 

 

They've been replaced by a new generation of trains (E353) which AFAIK use more conventional suspension but which are just as comfortable (albeit stylistically boring).

 

Those "old" E351s were introduced in the early 1990s.

 

Oh, and those hyper-modern looking 500 series Shinkansens, introduced in the late 1990s, are eking out an existence on stopping services in the far west of Japan, occasionally decorated in Hello Kitty livery, and are unlikely to see the end of the decade.

Edited November 24, 2018 by railsquid

[Mike Storey]

But is 4 tracking really needed throughout? I draw your attention to the fact that London Bridge - Waterloo East still only consists of a double track railway BUT what has been done is to ensure the stations at both ends have 4 platforms available for trains passing between.

 

Given passenger trains need to stop and allow significant quantities of passengers on and off, an extra pair of platforms at Piccadilly, extended platforms at Oxford Road and a suitably designed throat layout at both locations (that removes signalling restrictions so as to facilitate the situation where one train is arriving / departing while another is undertaking station duties) would achieve much the same thing as continious 4 tracking.

 

It goes without saying of course that freight needs kicking off the corridor however

 

Maybe I have misunderstood the new layout at London Bridge, but as far as I recall, there are now four tracks the entire route between London Bridge and Charing Cross (which is what the new Borough Market viaduct achieved), albeit two of them are shared with Thameslink trains for the very short distance between Ewer Street Jn and LBG. They may not be used that way routinely, but signallers have the flexibility to use them like that if needed, and as there are only about 12 tph max in the peak from Blackfriars to LBG, there are plenty of spare slots for CX trains, which number about 24 tph at the peak. So the comparison with the very long, two track Deansgate - Oxford Road - Piccadilly situation is not understood?

 

Our target at the time, if I remember correctly (it was nearly 20 years ago....) was to allow for up to 24 tph in the longer term. The present layout barely copes with 10/12 tph. At the time, a four track railway was the only viable way. However, given the method adopted for Thameslink to achieve that number on a two track route with ATC, I guess you may have a point. But whether it will ever prove economic to adapt all the different classes which use the route, to suit that operation, I would guess depends on whether much greater standardisation in future fleets is planned, and whether freights would be diverted off it (to where?). No sign of that so far. I don't think we have an answer until the Trans-Pennine strategy is resolved.

[62613]

Maybe I have misunderstood the new layout at London Bridge, but as far as I recall, there are now four tracks the entire route between London Bridge and Charing Cross (which is what the new Borough Market viaduct achieved), albeit two of them are shared with Thameslink trains for the very short distance between Ewer Street Jn and LBG. They may not be used that way routinely, but signallers have the flexibility to use them like that if needed, and as there are only about 12 tph max in the peak from Blackfriars to LBG, there are plenty of spare slots for CX trains, which number about 24 tph at the peak. So the comparison with the very long, two track Deansgate - Oxford Road - Piccadilly situation is not understood?

 

Our target at the time, if I remember correctly (it was nearly 20 years ago....) was to allow for up to 24 tph in the longer term. The present layout barely copes with 10/12 tph. At the time, a four track railway was the only viable way. However, given the method adopted for Thameslink to achieve that number on a two track route with ATC, I guess you may have a point. But whether it will ever prove economic to adapt all the different classes which use the route, to suit that operation, I would guess depends on whether much greater standardisation in future fleets is planned, and whether freights would be diverted off it (to where?). No sign of that so far. I don't think we have an answer until the Trans-Pennine strategy is resolved.

 

Weren't there plans a few years ago, with the building of Port Salford (is that still happening?) to run the freights in the opposite direction, towards the WCML?

Edited November 24, 2018 by 62613

[rockershovel]

When were you last in Japan, in the late 1980s?

..... errmmmm..... that would be about right, yes.... mid-rotation leave while working in the South China Sea, last job I did before the oil price collapse of that decade.

 

I briefly visited Tokyo whilst working in Sakhalin about 6 years ago, but I do mean briefly, so no reports from that trip.

[BWsTrains]

Those tilting Super Azusa trains (E351 series for anyone taking notes) are, as of earlier this year, a pile of scrap. Here's the last set I saw running:

 

 

They've been replaced by a new generation of trains (E353) which AFAIK # use more conventional suspension but which are just as comfortable (albeit stylistically boring).

 

Those "old" E351s were introduced in the early 1990s.

 

Oh, and those hyper-modern looking 500 series Shinkansens, introduced in the late 1990s, are eking out an existence on stopping services in the far west of Japan, occasionally decorated in Hello Kitty livery, and are unlikely to see the end of the decade.

 

Facts totally wrong, The new series E353 only started running in December 2017, It was the E353 technology I was referring to with the improved pneumatic tilt system #, specifically developed to overcome the problems with the E351.

Since in Post 1 I was commenting on developments in Rail Travel, I'd hardly be taking about an old series when there are new ones recently come into service.

 

500 Series Shinkansen were withdrawn from active service in 2010 although the odd one might be in use for special runs. Its problems are documented here, even the Japanese get it wrong some times.

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201806130001.html

 

while today there are different series in use different regions, there have been 2 distinctly different new series introduced since the 500, the N700 and E5 / H5 Series

 

 

Colin

 

# Your AFAIK and post needed some basic research before criticism of my input. See:

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E353_series

 

and an excellent video back around April this year on "Japan Railway Journal" here:

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/vod/japanrailway/

Edited November 24, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Bernard Lamb]

"The train will be delayed due to an intoxicated passenger having to be removed from the train."

The 14.34 from Euston this afternoon.

Excellent work by the police and station staff kept the delay down to 5 minutes.

Bernard

[Junctionmad]

Be thankful you got to sit on a mk3 carriage , possibly the finest coaching stock ever made

 

The modern stuff is rubbish in comparison

[The Stationmaster]

An interesting trip yesterday to/from Portsmouth - outwards beyond Reading) via Guildford, return via Basingstoke -

 

Total 5 GWR trains (2 electric Class 387, 3 Class 165 diesel) all Right Time or slightly early at their destination or the station where I detrained.

2 SWR trains - one was 14 minutes late ex Guildford, 8 late Portsmouth Hbr. (late start reaction late arrival of incoming service due to continuing points failure at Hilsea), the other was RT start 2 late Winchester due to intermediate station overtime.

One XC train - 6 late off Winchester r/a late running of the 15,.48 Weymouth - Waterloo which was out of course; lost a further minute to Basingstoke due trains out of course ahead, then dead stand at Southcote Jcn due its own out of course running - arrived Reading 12 late giving me 2 minutes to make my connection (which was fortunately cross platform so it worked). 

 

Net result - my journey started exactly as planned and I arrived home at exactly the time I had planned so despite some late running my personal journey was marred only (very slightly) by the loss of 8 minutes in the pub in Portsmouth.  All trains were clean and (except for the hard seat cushion on the 387s) very comfortable travelling, across the day, in a mixture of Standard and 1st Class accommodation; even got a decent cup of tea and a nice biscuit on the XC train. Tickets were examined on one GWR train (Reading - Guildford), the XC train (twice) and on the 14.59 Portsmouth - Waterloo and in all cases the staff were pleasant and courteous.

 

Last Saturday I travelled by XC from Reading to Birmingham International, and back, for the Warley show.  Luckily - for once - I got a seat in each direction but as ever the trains suffered severe overcrowding especially in the West Midlands corridor where they continue to be used as local services especially from/to Leamington and this was not helped by there being three popular shows on at the NEC.  The worst effect of this was northbound where passengers for Manchester were unable to join the train at Coventry until the Guard had asked passengers for Birmingham to get off - which some fortunately did. International was desperately overdone with the Birmingham bound platforms closed repeatedly in the afternoon to avoid dangerous overcrowding and the 4 car 350s on NWR workings very heavily loaded in both directions but especially towards New St; three passengers for Derby joined my southbound train intending to get to Birmingham via Leamington - quite a sensible idea daft tho' it may sound.

 

Overall the XC on-train staff did a good job in the face of the very heavy loadings and the consequent problems that produced.  The outbound train was 6 late at International almost entirely due to the passenger situation at Coventry resulting from the hordes who had boarded at Leamington - notwithstanding there being a local service to Coventry with a Birmingham connection a mere 15 minutes previously.  My return train was  slightly overtime at International due to passengers boarding, then held outside Oxford reaction late start of a stopper to Didcot (probably due to its ECS crossing to the platform delayed by northbound departures) and no time made up to Reading hence a 5 late arrival.  However my subsequent drive home suffered a similar delay due to crawling vehicles ahead so I can hardly complain about the train being a few minutes late when I couldn't do any better in a much shorter distance in the car.  So overall no reason at all to be critical of XC in respect of timekeeping or the presentation of the train although it's no fun riding in what amounts to a souped-up dmu power car with the engines running at full chat for much of the journey. 

[jjb1970]

Antwerp Central is an extremely clever adaptation and was very specifically planned to avoid excessive damage to the existing main structure while vastly increasing capacity and creating through platforms.  in that respect it has undoubtedly succeeded - but it cost a very large amount of money and it was constructed in the SNCB way which while far from dangerous would have had many UK safety inspectors (and railway operators) pulling out their hair if they'd seen what was happening and how certain things were done while work was in progress.  (As far as I know only one collision involving a passenger train has resulted from SNCB's methods while constructing/altering infrastructure, a very different approach from what should happen in the UK - think the recent Report about the Waterloo collision and start from a rather different place.)

 

I had cause to reflect on this today as I observed a pair of workers installing new slabs on the concourse of Paris Gare du Nord using a disc cutter to get the new slabs to the right size and shape and whose PPE was limited to yellow high viz vests and baseball caps. No eye or face protection, gloves, respiratory protection or anything as they cut away in a cloud of dust and flying debris. Several SNCF staff were on the concourse and I sort of made a glasses gesture and pointed to them and just got a shrug in response. I know it's common to talk about elf'n saftiness gone mad but working like that is just stupid IMO. I've seen the same thing here but very rarely in full view and on occasion where I've had words with somebody the poor behaviour is attended to (at least until I've walked off).

[Mike Storey]

An interesting trip yesterday to/from Portsmouth - outwards beyond Reading) via Guildford, return via Basingstoke -

 

Total 5 GWR trains (2 electric Class 387, 3 Class 165 diesel) all Right Time or slightly early at their destination or the station where I detrained.

2 SWR trains - one was 14 minutes late ex Guildford, 8 late Portsmouth Hbr. (late start reaction late arrival of incoming service due to continuing points failure at Hilsea), the other was RT start 2 late Winchester due to intermediate station overtime.

One XC train - 6 late off Winchester r/a late running of the 15,.48 Weymouth - Waterloo which was out of course; lost a further minute to Basingstoke due trains out of course ahead, then dead stand at Southcote Jcn due its own out of course running - arrived Reading 12 late giving me 2 minutes to make my connection (which was fortunately cross platform so it worked). 

 

Net result - my journey started exactly as planned and I arrived home at exactly the time I had planned so despite some late running my personal journey was marred only (very slightly) by the loss of 8 minutes in the pub in Portsmouth.  All trains were clean and (except for the hard seat cushion on the 387s) very comfortable travelling, across the day, in a mixture of Standard and 1st Class accommodation; even got a decent cup of tea and a nice biscuit on the XC train. Tickets were examined on one GWR train (Reading - Guildford), the XC train (twice) and on the 14.59 Portsmouth - Waterloo and in all cases the staff were pleasant and courteous.

 

Last Saturday I travelled by XC from Reading to Birmingham International, and back, for the Warley show.  Luckily - for once - I got a seat in each direction but as ever the trains suffered severe overcrowding especially in the West Midlands corridor where they continue to be used as local services especially from/to Leamington and this was not helped by there being three popular shows on at the NEC.  The worst effect of this was northbound where passengers for Manchester were unable to join the train at Coventry until the Guard had asked passengers for Birmingham to get off - which some fortunately did. International was desperately overdone with the Birmingham bound platforms closed repeatedly in the afternoon to avoid dangerous overcrowding and the 4 car 350s on NWR workings very heavily loaded in both directions but especially towards New St; three passengers for Derby joined my southbound train intending to get to Birmingham via Leamington - quite a sensible idea daft tho' it may sound.

 

Overall the XC on-train staff did a good job in the face of the very heavy loadings and the consequent problems that produced.  The outbound train was 6 late at International almost entirely due to the passenger situation at Coventry resulting from the hordes who had boarded at Leamington - notwithstanding there being a local service to Coventry with a Birmingham connection a mere 15 minutes previously.  My return train was  slightly overtime at International due to passengers boarding, then held outside Oxford reaction late start of a stopper to Didcot (probably due to its ECS crossing to the platform delayed by northbound departures) and no time made up to Reading hence a 5 late arrival.  However my subsequent drive home suffered a similar delay due to crawling vehicles ahead so I can hardly complain about the train being a few minutes late when I couldn't do any better in a much shorter distance in the car.  So overall no reason at all to be critical of XC in respect of timekeeping or the presentation of the train although it's no fun riding in what amounts to a souped-up dmu power car with the engines running at full chat for much of the journey. 

 

8 mins lost in the pub?? You have been very reasonable about that. I would have been screaming blue murder, or, more likely, caught the next one........

[Mike Storey]

I had cause to reflect on this today as I observed a pair of workers installing new slabs on the concourse of Paris Gare du Nord using a disc cutter to get the new slabs to the right size and shape and whose PPE was limited to yellow high viz vests and baseball caps. No eye or face protection, gloves, respiratory protection or anything as they cut away in a cloud of dust and flying debris. Several SNCF staff were on the concourse and I sort of made a glasses gesture and pointed to them and just got a shrug in response. I know it's common to talk about elf'n saftiness gone mad but working like that is just stupid IMO. I've seen the same thing here but very rarely in full view and on occasion where I've had words with somebody the poor behaviour is attended to (at least until I've walked off).

 

It is stupid, no mistake. But H&S goes from the sublime to the ridiculous in France. In the vast majority of cases, personal protection equipment and clothing here has moved on several light years from what it was like perhaps a decade or more ago. You see it on the autoroutes (and on railway new works). But then you will see stuff like you have just seen. You will also see highly organised, well lit, and well protected workers on one side of a Route Nationale, whilst protection for drivers on the other side (or on some extraordinarily complex diversion) consists of some almost invisible, barely reflective signs and the most dangerous form of travel imaginable.

 

The govt has reduced the national speed limit (applied on roads much the same as in the UK) from just under 60mph, to 50mph. The reason, very logically, is that the vast majority of accidents (France has twice the mortality rate from road accidents compared to the UK) occur on two-lane roads. But it fails to recognise that a sizeable minority (perhaps the majority on many occasions) never obeyed the previous limit anyway, a lot of them are quite seriously p1ssed (including many UK expats and holiday homers before you gloat), there are very few French cops available to patrol roads with the continuing State of Emergency, and the average impatience of a French driver (tailgating to the extent they are almost sitting in your back seats, before overtaking at the worst possible place) makes Black Friday queues seem like a meeting of the WI. Private companies have now been employed to "trap" speeding cars, and more speed cameras have appeared (although plenty have met an early death, shall we say). Add that to the increase in fuel prices (mostly due to the barrel price and little to do with the taxes, as claimed by the "Gilets Jaunes" in their current anti-Macron, sometimes violent, often threatening but always really annoying blockades - the percentage of taxation on fuel is still lower than it was in 2007 - fact), and that most of this falls on rural drivers, where public transport is almost non-existent, and you can understand the frustration that has led to the current unrest. The latest (provisional) stats suggest that the accident rate has not fallen since the new limits came into effect, so the accusations are also that this is just an attempt to take more money in fines.

 

Fortunately, there is now hope. The French Transport Minister has, yesterday, announced a package of improvements to rural transport (i.e. creating some) to be funded by the national budget, to the tune of 5 billion euros per year, which includes re-instating rural railways which have been plagued by closures due to track condition, and re-opening some long closed routes, plus unspecified extensions to rural bus routes. This won't placate the extreme left or extreme right, who have begun to manipulate what had been a mostly party-political-free protest until lately, but it remains to be seen whether this will be enough, or done quickly enough, to placate the millions of rural voters who feel left behind in the rush to economic success (and there has been some, despite UK reporting). I was very surprised, and worried, by the popularity of the Front National in national elections in this part of rural France. Shades of Brexit, if you adjust rural and cities for south east and the rest of England and Wales, except that the anger is mostly aimed at Paris, and not at Brussels - to that extent, the average French person is better informed than the average UK voter. (One could describe similar issues in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, and of course, the USA).

 

So, when having a dig at UK railways, despite their obvious faults, bear in mind that grass ain't necessarily greener.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Mike Storey

[jjb1970]

One thing I found heartening is that the new Eurostar trains also have a poor, fidgety ride in France (as they do in Belgium), so it's not just Britain where Siemens trains ride badly. What was more surprising is that the cabins on both legs (out and back) were rather noisy with rattling panels, whatever I might say about the ride of the Class 350 the build quality is very solid, the newer Eurostar trains feel a bit flimsy by comparison.

[rockershovel]

Re #214 above, being “more informed than the average U.K. voter” doesn’t take much doing, partly because of the abysmal standard of the media generally, but mostly because it seems quite impossible to persuade them to take an interest. I’ve never understood why this, but it’s so, and has long been that way.

[Junctionmad]

Al, I can say , is the last time ( 2015) I travelled by train in Italy , was I eschewed all forms of high speed trains and travelled by corridor compartment trains instead , while a bit dusty , the comfort of a compartment with decent seats compare to those narrow high backed things in modern trains , bliss I tell you , the Victorians knew how to travel

[lmsforever]

I think overall UK trains provide a reasonable service considering the level of interferience by government and most franchises do what it says on the tin.But it is not helped by the activities of certain people who represent workers who are settled on kami kazi like on destroying the network so as to placate out dated ideas.

[Coryton]

Al, I can say , is the last time ( 2015) I travelled by train in Italy , was I eschewed all forms of high speed trains and travelled by corridor compartment trains instead , while a bit dusty , the comfort of a compartment with decent seats compare to those narrow high backed things in modern trains , bliss I tell you , the Victorians knew how to travel

 

Germany offers the (unique?) experience of travelling in a compartment on a 300 kph train. Six seats in a second class compartment so not exactly narrow. There's even a table.

 

Admittedly there aren't very many compartments to go round, but still....

[phil-b259]

Maybe I have misunderstood the new layout at London Bridge, but as far as I recall, there are now four tracks the entire route between London Bridge and Charing Cross (which is what the new Borough Market viaduct achieved), albeit two of them are shared with Thameslink trains for the very short distance between Ewer Street Jn and LBG. They may not be used that way routinely, but signallers have the flexibility to use them like that if needed, and as there are only about 12 tph max in the peak from Blackfriars to LBG, there are plenty of spare slots for CX trains, which number about 24 tph at the peak. So the comparison with the very long, two track Deansgate - Oxford Road - Piccadilly situation is not understood?

 

 

OK, the post rebuild situation is 4 tracks between Borough Market Junction and Metropolitan Junction (where Thameslink trains head off up to Blackfriars). These are split operationally into 2 totally separate pairs with a complete split between service groups:-

 

One pair for Thameslink which only has two platforms - one up and one down at London Bridge) , this uses the old viaduct over borough market. The timetable here is written on the basis that Thameslink trains switch over to computer control before they reach London Bridge to maximise throughput.

 

One pair for Charing Cross trains - which feeds four platforms at London Bridge (2 up and 2 down) at one end and four platforms at Waterloo East (2 up and 2 down) - this uses the new viaduct over borough Market. While these trains are still manually operated, if you have more than one platform available then you can employ the 'left, right, left right... alternating pattern for arrival / departures I described above to mitigate this.

 

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiK5cqRx_reAhVIzoUKHeoYCXUQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.londonreconnections.com%2F2014%2Fstudy-sussex-part-6-approaches-london-bridge%2F&psig=AOvVaw3JvUMb39tke0hah-D-jhzj&ust=1543613620722782

 

or https://www.railforums.co.uk/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8457%2F8032234584_fd33059bb6_c.jpg&hash=311a0e12cc1c2341571b4defa5ba43f3

 

and https://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Spider-Diagram.png

 

and https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tl-lbg-1

Edited November 29, 2018 by phil-b259

[Zomboid]

Germany offers the (unique?) experience of travelling in a compartment on a 300 kph train. Six seats in a second class compartment so not exactly narrow. There's even a table.

 

Admittedly there aren't very many compartments to go round, but still....

I thought that compartments were available on some of the Shinkansen trains. Though not all of them run at 300kph.

[roythebus]

I don't use the trains very often, but last time (2017) I was totally astounded by the fares. Ashford Kent to Portsmouth Harbour and on to Ryde, a journey of over 3 hours was something like £72 return either via HS1, Northern Line to Waterloo, then via Basingstoke to the Harbour. But I thought about the other route. National Rail enquiries directed me to Ashford-Tonbridge-Guildford and the direct line, nearly 4 hours or Ashford-Tonbridge-Redhill-Clapham Junction-Pompey. Slightly cheaper. 

 

But, that too took ages and too many changes. How about the other other route? Ashford-Brighton-Havant-Harbour. Return fare to Ryde was about £56 so I enquired about a return to the Harbour. £23 return, not bad for a journey of about 100 miles each way. I knew the Wightlink are was about £12, so save a bit more by getting 2 tickets. Oh, and the journey time, 20 minutes less than going via London.

 

I had a nice reliable 2 car DMU from Ashford to Brighton, 15 minutes to get a cup of tea there before the west coast service to Havant, most stations then the connecting SWT train to the harbour. the trains were all on time, clean, but the unit from Brighton to Havant was the usual Southern whatever-the-standard-EMU is. Oddly enough a couple of months later had to go to Southampton Parkway for a trip on tho Orient Express, return fare was a couple of quid cheaper by the same route than going to Portsmouth! 

 

These days I've got a senior railcard, so the fare to Portsmouth is even cheaper. Marsh Line fares are remarkably cheap and I often quote those when people moan about fares being expensive. Ashford-Brighton return £7. Can't drive there for that price.

[phil-b259]

 

 

These days I've got a senior railcard, so the fare to Portsmouth is even cheaper. Marsh Line fares are remarkably cheap and I often quote those when people moan about fares being expensive. Ashford-Brighton return £7. Can't drive there for that price.

 

This is not unusual - and is all to do with the fact that fares were set under BR and at that time the service was a Hastings - Ashford shuttle in a noisy slam door DEMU with no realistic expectation that any sane person would  chose to go that way unless they had to. The low fares were therefore an atempt to make the service attractive to local users and encourage usage on that basis. You also need to remember that had the Ministry of Transport got their way in the late 1960s, the entire thing would have been shut down and ripped up!

 

A similar fares discrepancy exists on the Uckfield line - fares to London from the likes of Eridge were much cheaper than the nearby Hastings line or the BML due to the historic need to change at Oxted most of the time and the use of DEMUs.

 

Redhill users are also very happy to point out that they pay far more for their season tickets than Oxted residents despite the two towns being an equal distance from London. Again this reflects the fact that (1) until 1987 Oxted had manky DEMUs while Redhill had electric trains since 1933 and (2) Until the arrival of the Turbostars and the extension of Uckfield trains all the way to London throughout the day, Oxted was only served by all station stoppers where as Redhill benefited from fast services to London.

[Dunsignalling]

Be thankful you got to sit on a mk3 carriage , possibly the finest coaching stock ever made

 

The modern stuff is rubbish in comparison

Well, the seats are, anyway....

 

Wonder if that's a deliberate ploy to stop people complaining about having to stand?   

Edited November 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Fat Controller]

Germany offers the (unique?) experience of travelling in a compartment on a 300 kph train. Six seats in a second class compartment so not exactly narrow. There's even a table.

 

Admittedly there aren't very many compartments to go round, but still....

The TGV Atlantique had at  least one compartement. The double-deck TGVs also have them.