Locos in goods sheds

[mike morley]

Was it officially banned or simply something to be avoided if at all possible?

 

I am planning a layout based on a prototype that had the goods shed on the only loop (an arrangement inherited from its horse-drawn origins) and it must have been a nightmare to work in its loco-hauled days if BoT rules prohibited locos running through.

Edited October 13, 2018 by mike morley

[Nearholmer]

I’m not sure BoT requirements forbad it; i’d be very surprised if they did. Various editions of the requirements can be found on line, for example: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Requirements1902.pdf

 

But, some sheds had tight clearances, let alone the various annoyances and dangers to staff in the shed that having locos come through would create, so not a great idea, though.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Tim V]

Modellers' myth!

 

Engines can pass through goods sheds, unless locally prohibited.

[The Johnster]

We certainly went into Pontypridd goods shed with Hymeks and 37s with the parcels in the 70s.  And the one at Llanelli was used to park locos under cover, but this was only a stabling point so no work was done on them there, they had to be taken to Landore.

 

But any movements into goods sheds must be carried out with extreme caution at the lowest possible speed.  Clearances are tight, but more to the point there may be men working on wagons or around the loading dock areas, and the loco driver cannot see them.  You don't go charging straight in, you must first check the situation inside, make sure everybody knows what's going to happen, and use a generally softly softly catchee monkey approach.  

 

I'm sure there were locations where it was not permitted, but these would be listed in the local Section Appendix, where al such instructions may be found.  

[Steamport Southport]

I agree with the above comments.

 

There's a sign on the Didcot coaling stage banning engines. If it was an issue elsewhere then I would expect there to be signs all over the place. Yet looking at photos of goods sheds they are conspicuous by their absence.

 

https://locoyard.com/2012/08/12/didcot-railway-centre/073-didcot-railway-centre-coal-stage/

 

 

No sign here for example. Which is a similar scene to the one described in the OP.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm976a.htm

 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm3085.htm

 

 

Here's an engine just outside the shed.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm980.htm

 

 

 

It's also worth remembering that a man could move a wagon reasonably easily by either pushing or using a pinchbar and many goods yards would have horses. So in the general scheme of things engines possibly didn't usually go in goods sheds as they didn't need to.

 

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

I've just recalled that at least one under-cover London goods depot that contained wagon-turntables, some of which were designated 'wagons only' and others of a more robust design over which locos could pass, that being the only way to run-round.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that many 'industrial' railways had locomotive-worked sections that were inside warehouses, and inside factories etc. This was clearly not considered so dangerous as to merit prohibition, and that being so no logical case could have been made to ban the exact same practice on 'public' railways.

 

The BoT 'requirements', and nearly all of their 'recommendations', were concerned with the safety of passengers, not railway staff. Even spacing sidings away from running lines was probably as much about preventing accidental interference with passing passenger trains as it was about limiting the carnage among wheel-tappers, shunters, and their peers.

[The Johnster]

The BoT were not really involved in this; it is covered in the relevant Sectional Appendices, which are an internal railway publication.  Extreme caution was required for the reasons I have outlined, as while the railways and BoT may not have been primarily interested in the safety and well being of their staff, they did not actually go out of their way to maim or kill them, or to damage property or goods in transit which would have led to compensation claims.

 

This is not to say that locomotives were not discouraged from entering goods sheds, or from spending more time than was absolutely necessary inside them, as smoke, steam, or diesel fumes are not conducive to good working conditions in an enclosed building and most goods sheds do not have roof ventilators like engine sheds do to minimise this.  But it is sometimes inevitably in the course of shunting out a goods yard that the loco will have to enter, or even go through, the goods shed.  Limited clearances, and poor visibility for the driver particularly at the point of entering or leaving the building, mean that great care is essential.

[Londontram]

I agree with the above comments.

 

There's a sign on the Didcot coaling stage banning engines. If it was an issue elsewhere then I would expect there to be signs all over the place. Yet looking at photos of goods sheds they are conspicuous by their absence.

 

https://locoyard.com/2012/08/12/didcot-railway-centre/073-didcot-railway-centre-coal-stage/

 

 

No sign here for example. Which is a similar scene to the one described in the OP.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm976a.htm

 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm3085.htm

 

 

_________________________________________

 

Has no one noticed in the second picture of the goods shed there is a few years worth of smoke staining above the rail entrance but not above the vehicle entrance this could only come from years of locos passing through this entrance

 

Steve

Edited October 14, 2018 by Londontram

[E3109]

I used to work at the former Metal Box factory in Westhoughton and there were two or three roads in one shed, and a single road next to the steel coil line.

All were under cover, and a concrete base to enable road vehicles to enter as well as trains.

We had a little Fordson tractor to do the shunting, it was there for this purpose only and was fitted with buffing plates and drawhooks.

 

The reality was, the train engine invariably did the shunting. Many a time I saw a 25, 31 or 37 clagging the place out, while engines were not expressly forbidden the tractor was supposed to do it.

 

I think the general state of play was that a bit of haze for a few minutes, was deemed preferable to firing the old Fordson up.

I wonder if it survived the factory closure? It was in great condition (always kept inside) and I bet it would be worth a fortune these days.

 

That would be a wonderful prototype for a model.

[Kris]

I always understood that steam locos were kept out of sheds to help prevent damage to the goods (dampness created by the steam). This may be fiction as I have no first hand experience of this. 

[Three Cocks Junction]

What about match trucks? (or, as otherwhere, "Idler Cars"?)

[The Johnster]

I used to work at the former Metal Box factory in Westhoughton and there were two or three roads in one shed, and a single road next to the steel coil line.

All were under cover, and a concrete base to enable road vehicles to enter as well as trains.

We had a little Fordson tractor to do the shunting, it was there for this purpose only and was fitted with buffing plates and drawhooks.

 

The reality was, the train engine invariably did the shunting. Many a time I saw a 25, 31 or 37 clagging the place out, while engines were not expressly forbidden the tractor was supposed to do it.

 

I think the general state of play was that a bit of haze for a few minutes, was deemed preferable to firing the old Fordson up.

I wonder if it survived the factory closure? It was in great condition (always kept inside) and I bet it would be worth a fortune these days.

 

That would be a wonderful prototype for a model.

 

Especially a working model!

[The Johnster]

What about match trucks? (or, as otherwhere, "Idler Cars"?)

I think these would be used if they were available, but would not be specific vehicles, just empty vans or wagons used as 'reach' wagons.  Particularly in smaller goods yards, the classic BLT type, most goods were inward bound for mileage, collection, or delivery, and not much was loaded out; where there were local producers of stuff for outward loading (dairy, shoe factory, that sort of thing) they'd have their own sidings.  Some places would have a bit of outward bound seasonal traffic, such as fruit in packing cases or sugar beet, but the general rule was that 'stuff' was made in industrial towns and taken to rural stations for local distribution of some sort.  So there would usually be a few empties about the place waiting for collection.

 

On Cwmdimbath ,where it's easy because there are not that many general merchandise goods vehicles in service on any given day, it's fun to keep track of which wagons have been unloaded, and in a mining village I cannot think of any normal outward bound goods traffic except what I have made up from the Remploy Trading Estate siding.  As far as the goods dock is concerned, it's loaded in and empties out, but of course a confalt or medfit might be 'loaded' with an empty container, or sent back empty for the container to be picked up another day and a conflat sent up empty to collect it.  Remploy's has the medical equipment distribution centre and a frozen food depot, so it's traffic is the other way around, empties in and loaded out.  I might send a loaded open of stone for some building work backfilling going on down the back out of sight, but mostly it's all in vans, and hence my imagination...

 

This is slight topic drift (who, me?) into general goods working, and has no direct bearing on the locos in goods sheds or factories issue except to illustrate that wagons were usually available to be used as 'reach' wagons if needed,  At a push, loaded ones might be pressed into such service, and even taken off the consist of the pickup while having no other business to conduct at this location.  Rule 1 applies; run locos into your goods shed (but be slow and cautious) if you want, or don't if you don't want; both have prototypical examples but the latter might be enforced with a prohibition notice.

[LBRJ]

Engines Must Not Enter The Potato Siding

[melmerby]

Hockley Goods Shed:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd724a.htm

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

Engines Must Not Enter The Potato Siding

 

Because there was a cellar beneath it where the spuds were stored, and the roof was not strong enough to bear the weight of a locomotive.  This is exactly the sort of thing covered in Sectional Appendix instructions for particular locations.

[melmerby]

Engines Must Not Enter The Potato Siding

In case the heat from the chimney turns them into roast spuds

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Hockley Goods Shed:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd724a.htm

 

Keith

 

But note also the capstan  - which suggests a lot of the wagon movements didn't need the presence of an engine.  However if the capstans were defective or under repair  ...  

[The Johnster]

Or if you needed to pull a load beyond the capacity of the capstan winch...

[melmerby]

But note also the capstan  - which suggests a lot of the wagon movements didn't need the presence of an engine.  However if the capstans were defective or under repair  ...  

Which of course applied to Moor Street Goods (both levels), everything was arranged to be done electrically.

 

Keith

[Wickham Green]

Tight clearances, smoke, steam, diesel fumes, weight limits .............. has anyone mentioned the risk of fire ??!?

[The Johnster]

I would imagine steam loco crews avoided messing about with the fire while they were inside sheds or factories for fear of dropping hot ash or cinders and starting something, but there isn't that much extra fire risk posed by the presence of locos apart from that.  I'd say staff smoking was probably more of a threat.  You wouldn't want to be stoking the fire in there anyway in case you lifted the safety valves, which would have put an end to sports because of zero visibility in seconds.  The basic idea is to get the job done so we can all go home, not to delay it like this!

[melmerby]

Tight clearances, smoke, steam, diesel fumes, weight limits .............. has anyone mentioned the risk of fire ??!?

The spiel that goes with the Hockley picture I linked to mentioned a loco did start a fire inside the shed, afterwards they were banned.

 

Keith

[31A]

Hatfield goods shed:

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/hatfield-goods-shed-office-doors-1969-n-w-corner.html

 

Sign above doorway prohibits engines from entering.