Upgrading an 00 gauge Lima Class 33 - waste of time?

[Guest]

My first ever train set way way back when I was just bigger than a rug rat in the mid 70's was the HO 33. Slightly off topic but it's a shame British outline HO didn't catch on, nearly 100% accurate scale compared to OO.

Good old hattons,saved many a day for me too.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

It's a shame that it wasn't the scale you were led to believe (don't trust their 'era' references either).  I seem to remember Malcolm Carlsson (?) doing a rebuild of the H0 one in a magazine (Model Trains?) many years ago.  I think he cut it in half to narrow it too (model is 00 width?).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[SRman]

Coming in late here, I would agree with what several of the earlier posters have said.

There is certainly the better Heljan model available, which needs far less doing to it to improve it, but how does one measure "a waste of time", or build up their modelling skills if they don't try something different? Even if you are not entirely happy with the end result of upgrading the Lima model, you will have learnt a heap of modelling skills and you will be able to look at your personalised model and say, "I did that. I achieved something good." Those modelling skills will be transferable to other projects. The only way to get better at things is to practice them.

Going back to my earlier years, I tried all sorts of conversions and hacks. Looking at them now, I can say that some of them were quite successful, some were failures (most of which got scrapped or rebuilt again), some were mediocre and some were quite good, especially considering my age when I did them. I have several models which are not up to modern standards, but I retain them because of the work I put into them ... they contain a part of me (including the odd bits of finger and blood, etc. ).

With your Lima 33, go for it. Enjoy the experience and praise yourself when you get it right. You may also learn some new language along the way too!   

[John Tomlinson]

Well, the loco has arrived and tomorrow evening I've got the house to myself, so I guess it's time to get started.

 

This is what we start with:

 

 

The only thing I reckon I need to sort out fairly sharpish is what to do about the bogie-mounted couplings - they are long tension locks. My layout is based in the mid 80's so I don't know if kadee knuckle couplers or Sprat & Winkle couplers would be more appropriate? Stock will be Br Mk1-derived EMUs and 4TC's, and some mixed Mk1-Mk2 rakes. Freight will be mostly air-braked four wheeled stock (PGA, HEA hoppers and various sundry engineers items) but a smattering of 16T and elderly vacuum braked stuff mixed in.

 

Thoughts? I reckon a goalpost between the buffer beams for sprat & winkle would probably be the easiest solution!

 

If you don't want to work with scale couplings, I'd suggest that a goalpost is by far the best option, as it will allow you to fit full buffer beam details - pipes, dummy screw coupling.

 

John.

[Lacathedrale]

OK, looks like Wizard models can supply  the whole coupling infrastructure for 16 vehicles for about £20ish, so I'll go with that - the primary reason for me to clarify that earliy is because it means I can clean up the bogie frames.

[DCB]

Worst thing about Lima IMHO is the traction tyres.  We banned traction tyres a while ago and saw a dramatic reduction in the amount of dirt left on the rails.  A twin motor one with two Modeltorque motor conversions and replacement non traction tyres wheelsets would be good.

[Lacathedrale]

That's a good point - I've got a replacement motor AND a set of EM wheelsets which are traction-tyre free; so hopefully both of those potential pitfalls can be avoided.

 

I was quite struck by how close to eBay prices the Hattons preowned section was, £115 for this Lima 33 and three of the new Bachmann Mk1's.

[PatB]

That's a good point - I've got a replacement motor AND a set of EM wheelsets which are traction-tyre free; so hopefully both of those potential pitfalls can be avoided.

 

I was quite struck by how close to eBay prices the Hattons preowned section was, £115 for this Lima 33 and three of the new Bachmann Mk1's.

Looking from overseas, Hattons preowned is often a far more attractive proposition than Ebay, especially when their very competitive shipping rates are taken into account. Their pricing seems rather variable though. Maybe it depends on who's doing the labelling on a particular day.

[Lacathedrale]

I was sorely tempted by the Legobiffoman 33 pack with a Loksound V4 and lighting kit, but I've realised that this project has already breached the Heljan 33 cost and all I've got to show for it so far is a pile of etched frets and a manky 40 year old Lima model - so I went with a harness and corresponding budget decoder for now.

[Barclay]

Hi again,

 

It's a shame that it wasn't the scale you were led to believe (don't trust their 'era' references either).  I seem to remember Malcolm Carlsson (?) doing a rebuild of the H0 one in a magazine (Model Trains?) many years ago.  I think he cut it in half to narrow it too (model is 00 width?).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Yes he made an amazing job of it.

[cobach47]

My old man got me a 'Burma Star' class 33 when I was a young'un, and so I want a Class 33 on my layout - unfortunately my bid on a Heljan 33 got sniped, but I've seen there are many Lima 33's on eBay for relatively inexpensive prices. 

 

I realise this was one of the few representations of these locomotives available for many years, so I would expect that there may be articles and 'super detail' packs available - but just wanted to verify before I dump a bunch of cash into the scheme, whether this is infact the case? I am already assuming replacing handrails with brass, but I have never done this kind of thing before so I don't know if I might be better served with just getting the Heljan version!

no it is worthwile upgrading your loco i did this recently flush glazing scale plates etc

[KeithHC]

Watching with interest. I have 2 Lima 33's that I want to up grade as well.

 

Keith

[Corbs]

Here's the link to the Howes page for the Heljan sprues:

 

https://howesmodels.co.uk/product-category/model-railway/Heljan-uk/Heljan-oo-class-26-27-33-spares/

[Lacathedrale]

I'm baulking a little at the £4 postage for a £4 sprue, so I'm going to see if I can build what's in situ already with plasticard, etc.

 

I bought a bumper pack of etched parts for the 33 (it was my only way to get the correct roof panel), but which also came with detail parts for 37's, 40 and 47's so depending on how this goes, may have another bash at a 47. Hopefully my Hattons order should be delivered in the next day or two and we can get started.

[Lacathedrale]

Well, hattons had a Lima Class 37 part-converted to P4 for £20, so given that I've got a whole detailing set for one and can probably flog the wheels alone for £10 I made the plunge. Narrowly avoided tacking on a £220 4-CEP to the bargain That will be part of another thread at some point in the future, I think!

 

EDIT: 10 month waiting period for a set of replacement wheels from Ultrascale. Time will tell if I have the patience!

Edited October 22, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[PatB]

Well, hattons had a Lima Class 37 part-converted to P4 for £20, so given that I've got a whole detailing set for one and can probably flog the wheels alone for £10 I made the plunge. Narrowly avoided tacking on a £220 4-CEP to the bargain That will be part of another thread at some point in the future, I think!

 

EDIT: 10 month waiting period for a set of replacement wheels from Ultrascale. Time will tell if I have the patience!

I have a bargain bag of Class 50s on the way, two of which probably came from the same source as your 37. I'm hoping to get one good one for myself, one to sell on and a source of painting/weathering practice out of the package. Not that the Lima 50 was their finest hour but beggars can't be choosers.

[Lacathedrale]

^ Indeed, I have to keep telling myself 'No!' when I see a 47 or 56 - both of which I've got a bag of detailing parts for, from a bundle I picked up on eBay at the start of this project.

 

Today marks the breaking ground on this project, and I think it's gone pretty well. The loco arrived and was in good nick (the 37 looks very sorry for itself by comparison), so I got to work.

 

The first thing was to replace the old motor, just because I could - the bogie lifts out after removing the cosmetic frames, the cover comes out with a couple of screws and both the magnet and armature just pull out. One needs to add a spacer to the bearing, since the new motor's shaft is 2mm instead of 2.5mm - but that comes with the motor so it was just a case of knocking it out, soldering it up and trimming, and replacing. The wheels were more of a pain - the factory fitted ones were extremely hard to remove. After a bit of tweaking with the gears (the Lima plastic gears are molded onto the rear of the wheel, and the Ultrascale ones can be adjusted) it runs well. I fixed the motor in place with a dab of hot glue.

 

 

 

In addition to the above, I've started the big cosmetic work on the loco shell: removing handrails, smoothing the roof to take the new panels and cutting out the new fan grill. Exciting stuff

 

Questions

One 'problem' is that both sets of ultrascale wheels are insulated - so the axle wiper pickups that are captive inthe bogies no longer function. Any ideas? Two front-runners:

• solder a thin piece of wire from the axle to the inside wheel rim
• fabricate some wiper for the inside of the wheel faces on all four axles (definitely more work but currently current (ha) is only being picked up by one side of the loco on each bogie - a situation ripe for stalling.)

 

 

Also, the fan comes supplied flat with a pinhole in the centre - my assumption is that I need to cut it out and bend the blades to the relevant angle (clockwise? how much bend?) - but then I've got nowhere to mount it. Would I be correct in assuming the best solution is to make a small box to fit under the grille and mount the fan?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[RedgateModels]

My memory might be wrong but is the standard pickup not one rail from each bogie - both bogies relying on axle pickup? In any case I'd fix a small bit of pcb material to the underside of the bogies and fix thin wire wipers to each wheel. Phosphor bronze wire is good as it's more springy than brass.

Edited October 25, 2018 by RedgateModels

[Lacathedrale]

My memory might be wrong but is the standard pickup not one rail from each bogie - both bogies relying on axle pickup? In any case I'd fix a small bit of pcb material to the underside of the bogies and fix thin wire wipers to each wheel. Phosphor bronze wire is good as it's more springy than brass.

 

That's exactly what I meant, sorry - the motor tabs were wired with a single wire to each bogie. Each bogie has copper plates/springs inside the bogie mechanism, which are sprung against the axles which I guess are insulated on opposite sides.

 

Based on that advice, the tentative plan is to use some PCB sleepers glued to the bottom of the bogie, and solder some  0.4mm phosphor bronze with wound 'wipers' to try to hit the rear face of the wheel.

 

I don't know whether to open up the fan hole to the size of the fan, or have the fan sit below it under the bodyshell. Any ideas? I started putting together the plasticard housing underneath.

[richscylla]

I have just posted the latest video from my Class 33 series for those that are interested!

[Lacathedrale]

^ I commented on the headcode window

 

I think I've finished all the work on the body, and I've actually wired up a DCC socket and bufferbeam detailing (I made a right hash of the snowplows so they aren't going on any time soon) but nothing to show on that front yet. Here it is, in undercoat:

 

A1 Etches roof fan + grill with scratchbuild mounting / hub

A1 Etches updated roof configuration

Plasticard lamp irons

Replaced all handrails and door handles with 0.45mm nickel silver wire

Fitted lifting rings/hooks from same wire into the roof

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Stentor]

I came across this video on YouTube by MikesMovies which has the best servicing guide for

Lima pancake motors I have ever seen and explains how to transform them at very little cost.

 

 

I always thought I’d replace my Lima drives completely but this is making me revise that plan.

 

This link to servicing a class 73 demonstrates exactly what can be achieved.

 

 

//Simon

[Lacathedrale]

I've got a Lima 37, so before I replace the motor on that I'll try this method. I think the most germane point for my 33 may be filing off any flash on the back of the gears - I didn't think about that at all!

 

So with regard to wiper pickups, my thoughts are to solder a pair of wires shaped into a narrow vee onto a PCB, and then bend them back behind the wheel so they're wiping on the inside edges.

 

 

1) do I need to catch the inside rim (on the ultrascale wheels it's only a couple of mm across) ?

2) add a blob of solder/coil at the end of the wiper - why?

3) what should I use to glue the pcb to the plastic?

[crompton 33]

With my Lima class 33 when fitting Ultrascale wheels i put the wipers on the top of the wheels . Putting the wipers to the rear of the wheel gave little contact . The glue i used was 2 part  Epoxy from poundland to fix the pcb board.

[Lacathedrale]

Fitting to the top might be easier, do you have a picture by any chance? I can't really visualise how it would work!

 

I've fitted some rudimentary cabs to the loco but refuse to pay £10 for a pack of models out of which I only need a single seated driver figure.

 

Bufferbeam detail is on, including the step plates ontop of the buffers (new round OLEO buffers added too). At this point I can't do anything more until my masking tape arrives so I tried to work on the electricals an 8 pin female socked wired in and working well with alligator clips. Well, I say that - everything is fine when on DC, but the DCC chip I bought seems to not function on DC despite the manufacturers instructions. While I figure out what DCC system I want, I've just put some jumpers into the socket so I can run with the world's worst DC controller (aka Hornby trainset rubbish). Of course, I can't run it anywhere because I don't have any track yet. C'est la vie!

Edited October 28, 2018 by Lacathedrale