Western Region Colour Light Signals

[turtlebah]

Dear RM Web,

 

I'm currently building a western region secondary city terminus set in the early 60s. I wondered whether colour light signals would be appropriate at this time as on other parts of the system and particularly in suburban areas.

 

If so, are there any on the market that offer a solid resemblance.

 

Warm regards,

Nicos

[Gordon A]

For pictures try looking at photos of Bristol Temple Meads which was converted to colour light in the 1930s.

This thread may also be useful: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/7122-great-western-colour-light-signals/

 

Gordon A

[Miss Prism]

https://www.shapeways.com/product/NWVV73GQ4/gwr-searchlight-gantry-bracket-kit

 

https://images1.sw-cdn.net/product/picture/710x528_2044064_1801558_1459326578.jpg

[28XX]

Dear RM Web,

 

I'm currently building a western region secondary city terminus set in the early 60s. I wondered whether colour light signals would be appropriate at this time as on other parts of the system and particularly in suburban areas.

 

If so, are there any on the market that offer a solid resemblance.

 

Warm regards,

Nicos

Worcester still hasn’t got colour light signals 70 years after nationalisation, 30 years after the effective end of the regions.

[The Stationmaster]

You have two choices -

1.  The one accorded the name 'Hobson's choice' because regrettably and frustratingly there are not any c.l. signals particularly like those installed by the WR in the 1950s/60s/70s on the market in any scale.  And converting any which are available would be quite a challenge.

 

2. As already posted above you could go the route of using 3D printed items to model some of the c.l. signals installed by the GWR in the 1930s but beware because while that print includes some useful items it doesn't appear to include any of the different types of ground signal installed at that time although something could possibly be hacked from what is included.

 

Which takes us to the answer to your first question, and you have a potential problem.  With one very specialised exception all the GWR 1930s colour light signalling schemes were associated with or part of major station rebuildings and/or major track layout changes at large stations - Cardiff General, Bristol TM, and Paddington.  The only exception was the earlier provision of colour light signals of a very unusual type on the E&C Lines between Paddington and Old Oak Common and later the provision of colour light signals of the type in the 3d print on the Main and Relief Lines between Paddington and Southall.  So nothing at all like a secondary city terminus among that lot.

 

Fortunately for you the 1950s saw one example of a branch terminus (the rebuilt station at Portishead) gaining some c.l. signals some of which might be hackable from what is on the market but still not absolutely right.  Then the early 1960s saw two branch termini (Henley-On-Thames and Windsor) gain c.l. signals although only Henley was fully equipped with colour lights.  Oddly no WR secondary city terminus ever received c.l. signal while under GWR control  and those that remained in WR days effectively never got any because they were either closed or rationalised very severely.  The exception was of course Birmingham Moor St which was resignalled with c.l signals but only sometime after it had passed into LMR control - resignalled in 1969 but to LMR standards and not WR standards.

 

So yes - you could relatively easily explain away a 1960s WR secondary city terminus with colour light signals to contemporaneous WR standards.  the only problem you then have is finding signals suitable for adaptation to WR standards of that time (of which I have a reasonable number of photos)

[The Stationmaster]

Worcester still hasn’t got colour light signals 70 years after nationalisation, 30 years after the effective end of the regions.

I tried - back in the early 1980s and still have the drawing of what my proposals would have resulted in.  Oddly I subsequently worked on the same idea - layout alterations and resignalling - for Worcester twice in the following two decades but you can see the results of those studies there today, no change!

[trapoint]

It would be fair to say that those signals used around Paddington, Bristol, Newport ( south Wales ) installed in the 1930s were unique to the great western railway in those areas . Re-signalling on the WR with colour light signals did not really start big time until the 1960s anyway. Those mentioned above were amongst the first to go being non standard and like the southern the WR did not make use of searchlight signal heads either on other parts of the system. Early WR signals looked something like the "Eckon " model signals but without that curious stepped or forward facing bracket the heads sit upon the only place I have seen that kind of signal is at Bow junction in East London and is not typical of the ER either. And so the best place to start would be a " eckon or Berko signal and then gather together as many photos of WR signals from the sixties as you can and start kit bashing !

[The Stationmaster]

It would be fair to say that those signals used around Paddington, Bristol, Newport ( south Wales ) installed in the 1930s were unique to the great western railway in those areas . Re-signalling on the WR with colour light signals did not really start big time until the 1960s anyway. Those mentioned above were amongst the first to go being non standard and like the southern the WR did not make use of searchlight signal heads either on other parts of the system. Early WR signals looked something like the "Eckon " model signals but without that curious stepped or forward facing bracket the heads sit upon the only place I have seen that kind of signal is at Bow junction in East London and is not typical of the ER either. And so the best place to start would be a " eckon or Berko signal and then gather together as many photos of WR signals from the sixties as you can and start kit bashing !

 

On a matter of pedantry Newport(Mon) did not have colour lights signals from the 1930s although it did have route lever power signalboxes at each end of Newport station (dating from the late 1920s).  The Newport MAS scheme was progressively introduced in 7 main stages between 1961 and 1963 and was as much as anything else a consequence of the opening of Llanwern steelworks and the need to reorganise the running lines east of Newport station.  It was the third major WR colour light signalling scheme/panel box to be commissioned coming after Birmingham Snow Hill and Plymouth but was basically concurrent with the Reading(excl) - Hayes scheme which also commenced in 1961 with Twyford panel commissioned in October that year and Slough panel commissioned in October 1963 while Old Oak Common (first) panel commissioned in 1962.

 

Multiple aspect searchlight signals were used on the WR between Southall West Jcn and Ladbroke Grove both as part of the 1962 O.O. Common scheme and earlier resignalling between Acton and Southall, they lasted iuntil the 1967 (second) Old Oak Common panel box commissioning.

 

The picture picture shows - apart from part of the cast base - a standard WR style 1960s single post colour light signal (4 aspect head in this case).  It is 100% WR with an original (from late 1950s) Reading designed telephone cabinet on the front of the post, a similarly Reading designed disconnection box on the back of the post, standard Reading ladder & support ring for a signal without a junction indicator, standard WR method of mounting the head to the post and standard WR design ID plate and auto plate.  In this particular case it is a Westinghouse 4 aspect head and (although not completely visible) the casting in which the post is mounted is also a Westinghouse product which differed from the usual Reading standard in appearance.  It is, of course, painted in the standard WR colour scheme for a colour light signal, the back of the signal head was painted aluminium matching the post.

 

I've now added a picture to show the back of a WR colour light signal - taken in June 1963 of a signal erected in 1961 (and not the main subject of my photo of course).  in this case it is an SGE 3 aspect signal head but, again on a standard WR post with the usual Reading fittings but no telephone cabinet (quite close to the signal box).  The disconnection box can be seen clearly in this view as can the usual method of using two colours on the painting of the ladder, plus it shows the normal type of cast base for mounting the signal post together with the usual cover over the cable where it goes from the base over the concrete foundation.  The only oddity on this signal, and the one next to it, was that as can be seen here the top section at the back was painted black instead of aluminium and it also has the smaller version of the 'track circuit diamond' sign - painted black at the back as is the ID plate.  Another oddity is that in this case the small offset casting (by GRS as it happens) is painted black instead of the more usual aluminium and the back of the position light sub is also, again unusually, painted black instead of aluminium as is the mounting for the signal head onto the top of the post. (The latter were usually painted teh same colour as the post as they were fitted to the post before the signal head was added.). Finally this signal - for those not aware of WR geography - is at a branch terminus

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[trapoint]

My mistake I really should have said Cardiff which was completed in January 1934 together with Paddington and Bristol were these were really the only colour light schemes of any size completed before WW2 and indeed for some years after the war on the WR but as these were all on busy main lines and we need not consider them any further.

From 1960 onwards the WR which had lagged behind for some years suddenly were in the fore front with several new colour light schemes under way as the stationmaster correctly says most of the early signals were built " In House " at Reading . The ones shown in the photos might be a bit tricky to copy because they were very compact or flat behind the bulbs but on the model these can be very large to house the LEDS. The design and appearance of colour light signals changed over the years even on the WR with different types of post , The top of the signal above the top aspect could be flat or half moon shaped , the hoods above the lenses can vary in length as well not to mention the position of the white diamonds & Automatic plates.

All I can say is choose a signal design you have seen from photos ( Both front and back ) which is not to hard to copy or change also shop around for other makes of model colour light signals.

[The Johnster]

A very fundamental difference between the 1930s GW searchlight signals used at Paddington, Temple Meads, and Cardiff General and the WR MAS schemes brought into use from the 60s onwards is that the GW signals displayed the same aspects as semaphores would have at night. the MAS signals are basically the same as modern multi-aspect signals.  

 

I agree that the Eckon signals look not unlike WR MAS schemes' signals, and would satisfy me if I were signalling a 60s or 70s WR layout with them.  The GW searchlights are very different and distinctive in appearance, and I wouldn't know where to begin with them; fortunately I am not planning a layout based on Paddington, Bristol, or Cardiff at the relevant period so it's academic.

 

For the OP's purposes, I would suggest that a secondary city terminus in the 60s would almost certainly still be using semaphores.  Swansea High Street, for example, did not go MAS until the 70s with the extension of the Port Talbot Panel's territory to Llanelli.  Actually there are not that many examples of such termini (Penzance?); those places that services terminated that might be called secondary, like Weston Super Mare or Hereford, were not termini.  But semaphores are IMHO much more likely than anything else in the 60s.

[bigP]

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Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[The Stationmaster]

Hi, Stationmaster,

 

Would that be Twyford?

 

I presume the white paint on the bridge was to aid sighting of semaphore, but was that a wrong sided predecessor of UM30, or was there once an up starter from the Down Main platform?

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

Twyford East's Up Main Home Signal was on the right hand side for sighting purposes round the island platform buildings as the line is on a curve and that white patch was for that signal.

 

Amusingly UM 30 suffered the same problem as it could not be easily seen due to the curve and the station building and so c.1967 it was resited in rear of the station platform - where it is to this day (albeit now bearing a different ID number).

Edited October 19, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[bigP]

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Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[Zoe]

Multiple aspect searchlight signals were used on the WR between Southall West Jcn and Ladbroke Grove both as part of the 1962 O.O. Common scheme and earlier resignalling between Acton and Southall, they lasted iuntil the 1967 (second) Old Oak Common panel box commissioning.

Looking at this video of Hanwell in the 1970s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmiqdTadyRw  it seems that some MAS searchlights were still in use.  I believe the Hanwell signals would have been installed in 1953 as part of the first MAS installation from Hayes to Hanwell and in 1955 when the MAS was extended to Acton.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Zoe

[trapoint]

Interesting video pity its a bit short but it shows briefly the searchlight signals in that area . Yes you are right it was done in stages the first in 1953 followed nearly two years later with a extension  in 1955 not sure why they chose searchlight signals for that stretch of line perhaps the signal engineer for that project may have had something to do with earlier ones at Paddington  ? The LNER had a lot of them in North east London before the war and after war the ER put a whole lot more in  I know the southern did have a few in South London not sure where or how many?

[Zoe]

Yes you are right it was done in stages the first in 1953 followed nearly two years later with a extension  in 1955 not sure why they chose searchlight signals for that stretch of line perhaps the signal engineer for that project may have had something to do with earlier ones at Paddington?

Searchlights were installed all the way to Southall by the GWR in the 1930s.  I believe these were converted for use in the 1950s MAS scheme.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Zoe

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting video pity its a bit short but it shows briefly the searchlight signals in that area . Yes you are right it was done in stages the first in 1953 followed nearly two years later with a extension  in 1955 not sure why they chose searchlight signals for that stretch of line perhaps the signal engineer for that project may have had something to do with earlier ones at Paddington  ? The LNER had a lot of them in North east London before the war and after war the ER put a whole lot more in  I know the southern did have a few in South London not sure where or how many?

 

The reason commonly advanced is that they used searchlights because many of them were converted from the earlier searchlight heads which MAS replaced (although the upper yellow was a completely new, with a much smaller back, than the multiple aspect heads).

[trapoint]

The searchlight signals at Hanwell were still there in May 1974 along with those at Acton and might have survived into the Eighties they were just re-controlled from Old oak common and given new numbers with an "OO" prefix. I do not know the date of their actual demise but were very likely to have been replaced before Slough New IECC took over the area. They look a bit like Westinghouse signal heads but the feathers route indicators look like something out of Reading but I could be wrong.

[The Stationmaster]

The searchlight signals at Hanwell were still there in May 1974 along with those at Acton and might have survived into the Eighties they were just re-controlled from Old oak common and given new numbers with an "OO" prefix. I do not know the date of their actual demise but were very likely to have been replaced before Slough New IECC took over the area. They look a bit like Westinghouse signal heads but the feathers route indicators look like something out of Reading but I could be wrong.

 

I think you will find the feather JIs were GRS products, they certainly had a GRS look about them.  The stencil indicators were definitely Reading produced.

 

I suspect I was thinking of the few new multi lens signals which went in in 1967 when the new Old Oak panel commissioned as the searchlights did indeed last longer than then although i'm not sure if they made it to the Slough New era

[Zoe]

On the subject of feathers, this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmPzB0qTy4M (filmed in 1962 just before the MAS reached Old Oak Common) shows feathers above Ladbroke Grove's  Down Main Home and Down Relief Home  signals  at 1:01.  I was informed elsewhere these were was added so that the original searchlight heads for the diverging routes could be removed and converted for use in the MAS.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Zoe

[The Stationmaster]

On the subject of feathers, this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmPzB0qTy4M (filmed in 1962 just before the MAS reached Old Oak Common) shows feathers above Ladbroke Grove's  Down Main Home and Down Relief Home  signals  at 1:01.  I was informed elsewhere these were was added so that the original searchlight heads for the diverging routes could be removed and converted for use in the MAS.

 

You can also see them on Subway Jcn's Up Main and Up Relief Home Signals both of which have also obviously been recently repainted.  Incidentally according to the Ladbroke Grove Record of Amendments (included on the SRS site and disc) the JIs on the Down Relief Home were provided on 18.6.51 and those on the Down Main Home were provided on 05.11.51 so presumably the recovered heads reappeared as part of the Southall or West Ealing area changes to MAS.

[Rugd1022]

I tried - back in the early 1980s and still have the drawing of what my proposals would have resulted in.  Oddly I subsequently worked on the same idea - layout alterations and resignalling - for Worcester twice in the following two decades but you can see the results of those studies there today, no change!

 

In a nice way I'm glad you didn't succeed at Worcester Mike... did your proposal eliminate all of the right handers in the area...?

Edited October 28, 2018 by Rugd1022

[The Stationmaster]

In a nice way I'm glad you didn't succeed at Worcester Mike... did your proposal eliminate all of the right handers in the area...?

 

A lot of simplification involved Nidge including making Norton Jcn to Shrub Hill into two parallel single lines although Foregate St would have come out very much as it now is with facilities to reverse trains from the Droitwich direction and Shrub Hill in their respective platforms.   The proposed singling (which is what it amounted to of course) of each route between Norton Jcn and Shrub Hill has been criticised in a book about Worcester are signalling but that really failed to look at the facts as they were back in the 1980s when I proposed doing it (and it was authorised) as it would have speeded up trains saving time at Norton Jcn for crossing over moves at low speed and I tested it not only against the timetable but against 5 months worth of actual train running using Train Register Book information which proved overwhelmingly that there would be very, and infrequent, delays resulting from the change.  100% colour light signalling including Droitwich and right through to Ledbury. 

 

But it was a proposal of its time for the railway of its time and the last time I did a review, over 15 years later, I was proposinbg to extend double line past Norton Jcn to a point over 1 mile east of the then putative Worcester Parkway station.  Times changed, train services changed, other ideas changed - always a problem with major infrastructure schemes when you have to plan for what is currently known and proposed with sometimes a little bit of blue skies thought (for example my planning graph for re-quadrupling Wantage Road - Challow actually includes a path in each direction for the putative Swindon - Peterborough Regional Railways service calling at Wantage Parkway, very much a strong future possibility when I was looking at Avonmouth - Didv coal movements).

 

You should have seen what I drew up for the mainline in Cornwall to try to stave off the Serpell closure ideas  

[Rugd1022]

Thanks Mike - and I can well imagine what your plans for Kernow would have looked like...!

 

Even now, opinion amongst footplate staff is still divided regarding the antique nature of the lower quads and manual boxes at Worcester and Droitwich, some loath them, some love them, I'm firmly in the latter camp though. I must admit though, about eighteen months ago I was very nearly caught out by the surviving 'banjo' hanging from the canopy at Shrub Hill!

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike - and I can well imagine what your plans for Kernow would have looked like...!

 

Even now, opinion amongst footplate staff is still divided regarding the antique nature of the lower quads and manual boxes at Worcester and Droitwich, some loath them, some love them, I'm firmly in the latter camp though. I must admit though, about eighteen months ago I was very nearly caught out by the surviving 'banjo' hanging from the canopy at Shrub Hill!

 

Shows the need for excellent Road Knowledge Nidge - always more critical with semaphores than colour lights although oddly spaced colour lights also needed you to know what you were about (like the situation on the Up Main between Burnham and Farnham Road where you definitely needed to know what you were at with a loco hauled train and you were trying not to lose time and you got a double yellow on the bracket at Burnham.