Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) Hi Folks, I have always liked the look of the Cartic-4 wagons and first remember seeing them passing through Preston in the 1970’s usually behind either a class 81 or class 85. The originals were built at Ashford Works, Rootes Pressings and Standard Wagon between 1964 and 1972 and were operated by both BR, and private operators; Ford Motor Co., MAT Transauto, Silcock Express and Toleman Group. They were formed from a four wagon articulated set consisting of two outer wagons with buffers and draw gear and two inner wagons the ends of which were mounted upon four Davis and Lloyd Ridemaster bogies as fitted to the also new Freightliner flats The wagons lasted in service until 2005. Although Hornby manufactured a version it was actually incorrect as it had only the outer two wagon types and was therefore only a “Cartic-2” set with no inner wagons being available. My first thought was to buy and detail the Hornby model and make some inner wagons to go with them and so for research I sourced a cheap second hand one from eBay. After measuring up the model I discovered that it was quite incorrect dimensionally, the top body side rails were too shallow and bottom body side rails were too deep and also that the gap between them was too great thus making the wagon too tall. I decided that the amount of surgery required was too great and that the only way was to somehow build my own. The trouble then came that these wagons usually worked in block trains of around three to five sets coupled together which made train lengths between twelve and twenty wagons long. Three sets would be plenty for my wishes but the thought of cutting out all of the body sides form plasticard rather put me off and so my research lead me to York Modelling Community and laser cutting. My next problem was that I do not have or know how to use a CAD program but I could design and draw on paper and have the drawings converted to CAD which is what I did with the assistance of Julie at YMC. My source materials for the drawings were a friends model of the N Gauge Society’s kit and the drawings that are available on the Barrowmore diagrams website along with viewing of lots of photographs mainly on Paul Barlett’s photograph website. So far one full kit of parts has been produced to see that the kit actually builds up as intended, this it mostly has done although there are a few minor details and dimensions that need to be tweaked. Once the CAD file has been altered to suit the minor problems found so far the Cad File should then produce a full set of parts each time it is required. Another challenge was that although Hornby produce bogies of the correct type for both their Freightliner and “Cartic-2“, they are not offered as spares. The thought of buying Freightliner flats just for the bogies seemed to be a huge waste and so by chance via RMWeb I met up with Tom Cowell (TangoOscarMike) who designs his own locomotive and coach bodies by 3d printing through Shapeways. I measured the Hornby bogie and developed a drawing of it which was sent to Tom who then programmed a file that was sent to Shapeways to manufacture some bogies which seem so far to be quite a success. In time he will produce the air tanks and brake cylinders that will be available with five bogies as an accompanying part of the kit. The next steps are to source a supplier to produce appropriate transfers and also a supplier to make some etched parts for the ladders, hand rails and the gratings that the cars run upon as those certain parts are not suitable for the laser cutting process. The kit has been designed to be fitted with separate buffers but this may in future be altered to accept a printed buffer beam incorporating buffers that locates via a tongue in place of one of the laser cut layers that form the buffer beam. Should this be that case then it will become part of the air tank and bogie package. It is intended to offer the kit for sale therefore I am currently working upon written instructions for the kit along with step by step photographs of the build and below are the results so far. The work so far has been to build an inner and an outer with me concentrating on the actual build and noting the slight alterations that will be needed and the second stage of the build is to photo document and notate the build of the remaining inner and outer. I have so far built the second inner and photographed it along with some as yet to be edited instructions. When I get time I shall build the second outer doing the same step by step photographs and instructions. Outer end component parts. Inner end component parts Initial set up in jigs. Squaring of inititial set up before cementing. Articulation joint detail from above. Articulation joint detail from underside. General view shewing all of the top decking and centre sections of the lower decking fitted. Articulation and bogie pivot pin detail. Articulation socket detail. General view of works so far completed shewing Tom's 3d printed bogies at the left hand end of the consist. Edited October 21, 2018 by Gibbo675 15 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 They look very nice: I modified a couple of Hornby ones about 25 years ago; the inner wagons were effectively scratch built. They didn't always run as full trains; there was a Severn Tunnel Jct to Exeter service which was perhaps 2 sets long. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 They look very nice: I modified a couple of Hornby ones about 25 years ago; the inner wagons were effectively scratch built. They didn't always run as full trains; there was a Severn Tunnel Jct to Exeter service which was perhaps 2 sets long. Cheers FC, I have seen various links about Cartic-4 sets one of which was about the building of centre sections, was that your build or someone else's ? With regards to workings it would seem that they were operated in a similar way to the Freightliner flats which were also occasionally included within mixed freight type workings. Gibbo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 21, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2018 Hi Gibbo If you do go on to produce the kit will a set of the alignment jigs be available as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 I really like the way this is turning out. It makes me feel like a rock star! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Cheers FC, I have seen various links about Cartic-4 sets one of which was about the building of centre sections, was that your build or someone else's ? With regards to workings it would seem that they were operated in a similar way to the Freightliner flats which were also occasionally included within mixed freight type workings. Gibbo. Not guilty to an article/ posting on building a set.. Other workings where a single set might be seen were workings to and from Marcroft's at Burry port, where the raisable roofs were installed. They also worked in mixed formations on the Rover trains from Longbridge to Italy during the first fifteen or so years of the Channel Tunnel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 The next steps are to source a supplier to produce appropriate transfers ..... You may be interested in :- Sheet BL61 - BR Diagram 2/294 & 2/295 prototype Cartic-4 in 1965 Ford livery; numbering is in the correct 'boxed' style. Transfers for one four wagon articulated rake, (with generous spares). 2mm., 3mm., 3.5mm. & 4mm. scale price is £7.50 S scale price is £15.00 7mm. scale price is £22.50 Gauge 1 price is £30.00 See https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm . Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 You may be interested in :- Sheet BL61 - BR Diagram 2/294 & 2/295 prototype Cartic-4 in 1965 Ford livery; numbering is in the correct 'boxed' style. Transfers for one four wagon articulated rake, (with generous spares). 2mm., 3mm., 3.5mm. & 4mm. scale price is £7.50 S scale price is £15.00 7mm. scale price is £22.50 Gauge 1 price is £30.00 See https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm . Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. Hi John, Thanks for the information, I had thought that your transfer sheet was just for the Ford livery, does it suit the BR liveried examples also ? Gibbo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 Not guilty to an article/ posting on building a set.. Other workings where a single set might be seen were workings to and from Marcroft's at Burry port, where the raisable roofs were installed. They also worked in mixed formations on the Rover trains from Longbridge to Italy during the first fifteen or so years of the Channel Tunnel. Hi FC, I am constantly impressed by your encyclopaedic knowledge of all things "goods wagon", do keep the information flowing it is always useful. Gibbo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 Hi Gibbo If you do go on to produce the kit will a set of the alignment jigs be available as well? Hi Clive, It is intended that the kit will supplied with the alignment jigs along with bogies, air tanks, etched fret for the car decks, ladders and handrails with only couplings, wheels, paint and transfers to complete. So far my main concern will be price as the laser cut parts are unfortunately not cheap. Gibbo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 This project looks very promising. I need several Cartic4 units in 00 so will definitely be a buyer if this progresses to production. I had tried a Colin Craig kit of the same, but the folded etch brass assembly, very fine soldering and so on, defeated my skills. But this looks far more achievable.I very much hope you can get to production. Incidentally: Formations - on the SR, one, two or three Cartic4's were a common sight, especially to/from Queenborough and Dover Town, often mixed in with other freight, even Autic2's (which I have modelled using Electrotren versions). Transfers - I strongly suggest you contact Steve at Railtec. I asked him if he would produce a range for the Sheerness Steel scrap wagons (for which there are no current kits or RTR), together with Procor labelling, not exactly a mass demand item. He said he would look at it, and produced them about three months later, out of the blue. There would certainly be a better market for MAT transfers, as these could also be used to convert the Autic2 units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 This project looks very promising. I need several Cartic4 units in 00 so will definitely be a buyer if this progresses to production. I had tried a Colin Craig kit of the same, but the folded etch brass assembly, very fine soldering and so on, defeated my skills. But this looks far more achievable.I very much hope you can get to production. Incidentally: Formations - on the SR, one, two or three Cartic4's were a common sight, especially to/from Queenborough and Dover Town, often mixed in with other freight, even Autic2's (which I have modelled using Electrotren versions). Transfers - I strongly suggest you contact Steve at Railtec. I asked him if he would produce a range for the Sheerness Steel scrap wagons (for which there are no current kits or RTR), together with Procor labelling, not exactly a mass demand item. He said he would look at it, and produced them about three months later, out of the blue. There would certainly be a better market for MAT transfers, as these could also be used to convert the Autic2 units. Hi Mike, The kit is not overly easy to build for it is quite fiddly, getting it square initially is the major challenge. It is in a way a half way house between what I would term a kit and assisted scratch build ! The laser cut parts just make for a more accurate way of achieving a much higher degree of accuracy to that of cutting out your parts which are then assembled in the way of a scratch build. I won't be making any claims of high accuracy but it does scale out and so far looks the part from my perspective. I think you are quite right about the MAT livery being the most useful private owner, so far I have not sourced the correct shade of orange for the Silcock Express wagons. My builds will be in good old BR Blue with several class 81's and a class 85 waiting to haul them off to somewhere or other. Thanks for comments, Gibbo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Hi John, Thanks for the information, I had thought that your transfer sheet was just for the Ford livery, does it suit the BR liveried examples also ? Gibbo. Gibbo, You thought correctly - but there may be those who wish to model the FORD liveried set. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 Hi Folks, It has be a while since I did anything with the Cartic-4 set, partly due to distraction with other projects and partly to do with the fact that the EMA Plastic Weld has such awful fumes I only use it outside with a Work Mate as a bench. Today I have finally finished off the building of the last of the laser cut parts to complete the set and while doing so writing out a set of instructions should anyone wish to build one of their own once I have completed the kit as a whole. Writing the instructions was quite tricky because not only do I have be be concise, it all has to make sense. The difficulty in doing this is that I know what I am doing and so I don't really need to explain the process to myself, if that makes sense. This is also the first time that the whole rake has been mounted upon a full set of Tom's (TangoOscarMike) printed bogies. He has developed some air tanks and brake cylinders but I can't remember if I am to get them from Shapeways or if he is sending them to me once he has seen them for himself. Either way it will become apparent in time. The kit as it stands has gone together really well although it needs to have some slight remedial works carried out for certain details that would be better in an altered form. The drawings will be amended shortly. I shall also start on the drawings for the gratings that form the decking for the cars to run upon and also the brake hand-wheels, handrails, ladders and loading flaps. The next step is to fill, file and sand the wagons and fit the couplings and buffers, this process will likely be started over the weekend. Full Rake. Side view of outer wagon. Side view of inner wagon. General view form above. 85 024 on a class 3 working ! Gibbo. 10 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Hi Gibbo, only just found this thread. Am I right in thinking you brought the Cartic 4 set with you at Hazel Grove exhibition last October? If so, the kit is looking good and it looked good parked on the layout too. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) Flipping 'eck Gibbo, you have been busy. This looks outstanding, even before you add details. I am really looking forward to having a go at one (or several) of these!! Good luck with the rest of it, but you have already really cracked the look, relevant dimensions and "presence" of the Cartic! I think you are on to a real winner here. Mike Add Edit - By the way, do you think the Deluxe Models Plastic Weld would work just as well on these - I have used this several times with success and without significant fumes? Edited February 6, 2019 by Mike Storey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 38 minutes ago, pharrc20 said: Hi Gibbo, only just found this thread. Am I right in thinking you brought the Cartic 4 set with you at Hazel Grove exhibition last October? If so, the kit is looking good and it looked good parked on the layout too. Cheers Paul Hi Paul, It is the very same Model and the very same Me ! Many thanks for the compliment and also recognising my handiwork. Gibbo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, Mike Storey said: Flipping 'eck Gibbo, you have been busy. This looks outstanding, even before you add details. I am really looking forward to having a go at one (or several) of these!! Good luck with the rest of it, but you have already really cracked the look, relevant dimensions and "presence" of the Cartic! I think you are on to a real winner here. Mike Add Edit - By the way, do you think the Deluxe Models Plastic Weld would work just as well on these - I have used this several times with success and without significant fumes? Hi Mike, Steady on, I've not been that busy. I built the last wagon last evening and this afternoon and the previous three over three months ago. I too am pleased with how it is looking so far, you are correct that with the extra details it will look a lot better. What I found surprising is that the tops edges of the body sides are a lot lower than you might think. The top edges line up approximately with the mid point of the cab front windows which should you look at phootgraphs seems correct. I cannot comment upon Deluxe Models Plastic Weld for I have not used it, I would advise looking at the list of suggested solvents on page two of the information page provided by York Modelmaking Community linked below: https://www.yorkmodelrail.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Laser-Cutting-information-sheet.pdf Having just looked there is a similarly named solvent. Cheers, Gibbo. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said: Hi Mike, Steady on, I've not been that busy. I built the last wagon last evening and this afternoon and the previous three over three months ago. I too am pleased with how it is looking so far, you are correct that with the extra details it will look a lot better. What I found surprising is that the tops edges of the body sides are a lot lower than you might think. The top edges line up approximately with the mid point of the cab front windows which should you look at phootgraphs seems correct. I cannot comment upon Deluxe Models Plastic Weld for I have not used it, I would advise looking at the list of suggested solvents on page two of the information page provided by York Modelmaking Community linked below: https://www.yorkmodelrail.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Laser-Cutting-information-sheet.pdf Having just looked there is a similarly named solvent. Cheers, Gibbo. Thanks Gibbo Deluxe Plastic Magic does indeed seem to be a recommended solvent for their laser cut plastic, which is what I have understood you have used. I shall use that when given the opportunity! I have been through a similar, but far less complex, process with Absolute Aspects to produce two unique signals for my Queenborough layout, which have turned out fine (but with compromises due to cost), so have some understanding of what you are going through. You have my undying respect to have reached this far!! Mike 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 Hi Folks, I have painted the Cartic-4 set and it has come out quite well although there was slight bleeding under the masking of the lower deck. The reason for this is that it is quite tricky to get even my little finger in to press it down, i even used the end of a paint brush to try to make sure that the masking tape was firmly settled. There is a little touching up here and there and also repairs to the areas of failed masking but nothing much considering. The colours used are BR Blue for the sides and Diesel Roof Grey for the inner faces of the sides and the deck surfaces. Diesel Roof Grey looks good for the deck colour but from what I can see in photographs the inner faces of the sides ought to be BR Rail Grey. I might repaint the inner faces of the sides but I think it might look too bright and will then require toning down by weathering, in which case it may be easier to leave it. I think that I should perhaps have fitted the buffers before painting though! General view. Side view showing the articulation brackets that requires painting black. Gibbo. 6 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 Hi Folks, I haven't done much with my Cartic-4 project recently for I have been busy with various other things not all model railway oriented. However my trusty 3d printing assistant has modified the bogies with an adjustable adaptor arm that has an NEM pocket. The plan is that there will also be a sprue of five with two arms for the Cartic-4 kit and also either a sprue with two or four bogies and arms as spares or scratch building aid. I yet need to find someone that is able to draw up some CAD files from my pencil drawings for the Etched brass components so these components may be produced. Gibbo. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 Hi Folks, Here is the latest from the Cartic-4 project, there have been some air tanks fitted and also the trial print of the bogies with NEM pocket adaptors have been removed from their sprue to see how they go together. My 3d printing specialist Tom sent over the air tanks which are printed in a sprue of six. They are glued into locating holes drilled into the centre section of the outer end wagons fitting neatly up to a cross member and just clearing the bogies. Shewing the position of the air tank, note the air tanks and bogies on their sprues in the background. The air tank glued into place with the locating pegs yet to be trimmed off. Also in the same package were a test print of a sprue of five bogies with adjustable adaptor brackets for NEM pockets as shewn in the previous posting. This particular sprue is as a compliment to the Cartic-4 kit. The grooves required a very slight amount of filing so the the brackets would locate easily. Shewing the range of adjustment of the brackets. I plan to get on with the drawings for the brass etchings that will form the hand rails, ladders, &c. as soon as I am able. Gibbo. 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted May 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2019 I am still saving up to buy 28 Ford Anglias to travel on one. It is looking good. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 Thanks for the further update Gibbo. It really looks promising. A question, that may be more for TOM - are the bogies designed to take Top Hats (or other bearing) with pin point axles? What wheelsets have you used? (I assume this will be in the instructions, but thought I would ask!) Regards, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: I am still saving up to buy 28 Ford Anglias to travel on one. It is looking good. I might have got one, Clive.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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