Buying 2nd hand risks

[Damo666]

I'm wondering what are the risks in buying second-hand locos. Not talking about ebay / Gumtree or similar where the item may not turn up, or what arrives is so far from reality it should be classed as fiction. I'm talking about seeing something at a swap meet, exhibition or model shop.

 

You can see the item, hopefully see it run, inspect for damage etc. But what hidden faults could be lurking for the unwary that might present itself later?

 

Not trying to preempt any responses, but if a loco wasn't run-in, would that be really bad? I suppose that this would be classed as a risk, but then the next logical questions is what is the severity of that risk?

[Oldddudders]

Plenty of locos see very little track-time, so may well not be run-in. Others may have been hammered day-in, day-out. Look for wheel-wear. Locos are really not very complicated, so if it runs your chances are good. I have bought tons of secondhand stuff on ebay and seldom been stuffed. 

[Kylestrome]

The second hand locos I have, were bought on eBay from retailers (with at least 14 days return policy), so I had the possibility of returning them if they weren't as described.

 

David

[John Tomlinson]

I've bought a lot of stuff, both 4mm and 2mm secondhand, with very few insoluble problems - this includes ebay as well as toyfairs.

 

I steer clear of locos with obvious damage, such as broken off buffers, as this can indicate general maltreatment, and would only buy such items if I could see them run or if they were at a very good price!

 

I think the main thing with secondhand purchases is that you have to be prepared and able to take them apart, clean and service them, and if needed attend to broken wires etc. If you aren't comfortable taking the top off and fiddling about then you may be buying yourself a heap of trouble, and you should stick to new items or secondhand from a shop were you can take them back.

 

If you are prepared to do some work you can save a small fortune, as many secondhand locos have never really been used, just bought for a "someday" project that never happened and so are mint, but may well need a good service to clear congealed factory grease or similar.

 

John.

Edited October 22, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[Damo666]

Thanks to all replies so far.

 

......but may well need a good service to clear congealed factory grease or similar.

 

Having spent a bit, OK, a lot, of time servicing all my rediscovered 1980's Hornby diesels and cleaning out all the dust and other detritus, I was very careful to read up on how to oil and lubricate the old motors, especially the use of proper lubricants and to not over-do it. I'm therefore very surprised that the manufacturer's can over grease their new locos coming off the production line. You have mentioned this and I've read it somewhere else recently a few times. Why do the manufacturers to this?

I steer clear of locos with obvious damage, such as broken off buffers, as this can indicate general maltreatment, .....

Yes, good rule of thumb advise. Hadn't really given that point much thought.

[Damo666]

Look for wheel-wear.

I'm sure this is obvious when you know what it looks like, but what would wheel-wear look like? Is it worn flanges, grooves in the running surface, or wheels not fully round,I'd have no idea what to look out for? Are there degrees of wheel-wear which is acceptable or should I just steer completely away from it.

[Oldddudders]

I'm sure this is obvious when you know what it looks like, but what would wheel-wear look like? Is it worn flanges, grooves in the running surface, or wheels not fully round,I'd have no idea what to look out for? Are there degrees of wheel-wear which is acceptable or should I just steer completely away from it.

 

If you have a model with little track-time on it, examine the wheels and note the general appearance of the treads. They will look smooth and unblemished. If a model has grooves or other signs of wear on the wheel it probably indicates substantial use, although that in itself does not mean it won't carry on for many more miles. Wheels not fully round, or irregular motion forward and/or back, will soon reveal themselves, and are best avoided unless you enjoy tinkering.  

[plarailfan]

Any number of things might be wrong with secondhand locomotives. I have bought a lot at toyfairs and off ebay. most, but not all of them have been ok.

Sometimes they work correctly, but develop a problem later on. I've sold all the dodgy ones on ebay with an accurate description of the faults, mostly split gears on the old models made by "Mainline" and faulty Airfix loco's.

These were produced around three decades ago and so, you can expect them to be a bit tired these days.

For the price I've paid, I have always been happy buying secondhand, as the savings on new can be phenomenal, especially if the era you are modelling is currently "out of fashion" at the time you buy. Trends come and go with model railways and sometimes prices can be lower and overall, even including the pups I've bought and then sold at a loss, with an accurate description. I have saved a fortune on buying new.  

[TrevorP1]

These days I always give a thought to used items and so far I’ve always been happy with what I’ve bought. However one item I did by recently had to be stripped and cleaned thoroughly as it stunk of nicotine!

[RexAshton]

I helped dispose of an estate collection a few years ago. Many of the Bachmann locos in the collection had very badly worn coupling rods. They all seemed to have been oiled properly but had obviously been run to death.

As regards Ebay purchases, they should be ok as they are covered by the distance selling regulations, sale of goods act and Ebay/ Paypal's refund service. I've bought a number of items through Ebay over the years without issue and sold a few as well.

[John Tomlinson]

Thanks to all replies so far.

 

 

Having spent a bit, OK, a lot, of time servicing all my rediscovered 1980's Hornby diesels and cleaning out all the dust and other detritus, I was very careful to read up on how to oil and lubricate the old motors, especially the use of proper lubricants and to not over-do it. I'm therefore very surprised that the manufacturer's can over grease their new locos coming off the production line. You have mentioned this and I've read it somewhere else recently a few times. Why do the manufacturers to this?

Yes, good rule of thumb advise. Hadn't really given that point much thought.

 

It's good you're a confident repairer and fixer, and I've found I get a lot of satisfaction from the process.

 

As far as grease and oil go, there are broadly two problems from manufacturers, both with the same outcome.

 

First, is that locos unused for a length of time will have congealing and hardening of any grease. For example, around 18 months ago I started getting interested in the Southern, and over a period bought five Hornby West Country's on ebay. All were mint, other than perhaps a twirl on a test track in a shop I doubt if they'd run. Three of the five had a driving axle that had gone solid in its bearing with grease. There wasn't a lot of it, but enough that after 10 - 12 years of inactivity it had locked. Had I applied power for a prolonged period I'm sure the motor would have burnt out. A strip down, use of mechanism cleaner fluid and reassembly with new lubrication, and all three are like new. Average price to me say £80 - £85 v's £130 new.

 

Second is that manufacturers seem to go through phases of over-greasing models. I suspect part of this is protection from corrosion if they're in transit or in store for any length of time, it may also be ignorance by the person with the grease pot in the factory! Bachmann diesels used to be awful some years ago, with bogies of new locos wet with the stuff. Heljan locos have also suffered, particularly it would seem classes 15, 16 & 17, also there's been a piece about Class 28 Metrovicks of late on here. I've personally cleaned out examples of Classes 16 & 17, the latter with a dramatic improvement in performance.

 

The moral seems to be "Be aware". I do however feel for those who buy things that either need, or come to need attention, and don't have the confidence to have a go.

 

John.

[Phil Bullock]

Likewise with Ebay - bought many, few if any significant issues

 

In fact the reverse - things sold as non runners and therefore bought for spares easily fixed eg DCC blanking plate fitted wrong way round. IMHO many sellers will overstate problems especially if they are not model railway specialists - but the reverse of that is I wont take genuine non railway minded sellers for a ride either, often point out issues that may help them if I spot them....

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Damo666]

......... Second is that manufacturers seem to go through phases of over-greasing models. I suspect part of this is protection from corrosion if they're in transit or in store for any length of time, it may also be ignorance by the person with the grease pot in the factory! Bachmann diesels used to be awful some years ago, with bogies of new locos wet with the stuff........

Don't wish to go OT, (especially as it's my topic), but I've recently bought a few new locos, mainly from the reputable shops we all know. As I don't have a layout yet and so haven't run any of them, should I be checking to see if they are gunged up with lots of grease?

[Damo666]

Any number of things might be wrong with secondhand locomotives. I have bought a lot at toyfairs and off ebay. most, but not all of them have been ok.

Sometimes they work correctly, but develop a problem later on. I've sold all the dodgy ones on ebay with an accurate description of the faults, mostly split gears on the old models made by "Mainline" and faulty Airfix loco's.

Well, that's something else to consider.

 

If the metal wheels are looking well used and bordering on being classed as worn, then the plastic (nylon or whatever material they use) gears in the motor must also be worn. Whether this is to the extent that they have split is possibly another matter.

[John Tomlinson]

Don't wish to go OT, (especially as it's my topic), but I've recently bought a few new locos, mainly from the reputable shops we all know. As I don't have a layout yet and so haven't run any of them, should I be checking to see if they are gunged up with lots of grease?

 

I'd say its worth a look, and at least store them upright so if they are a bit greasy it doesn't run onto the bodyshell.

 

If you haven't a layout and it might be a while yet, it's simple enough to rig up two wires from a basic controller to a yard of track, just to check the locos do work OK. 

 

John.

[The Johnster]

I wouldn't regard a secondhand loco not run is as a problem; all you need to do is run it in, but of course you need to know that it hasn't been run in in the first place.  Or, you can do what I do and subject every acquisition, new or secondhand, to a full examination, strip down, deep clean and relubrication with my own lube which I trust.

 

The issue with factory grease is that it is slapped on in a hurry, possibly by a machine, and the quantity is not controlled.  The loco may then be several months in transit from China, stuck in a container for weeks at Felixstowe, and then a couple of years in a warehouse before festering on a dealer's shelf for another long period.  The grease solidifies, and the loco runs badly if at all, but is fine once it is cleaned out and new lube put in.

 

Paradoxically, the manufacturers use it because it has a long shelf life, and will not leak and contaminate other parts or the packing in transit.  Some lubricating oils are flammable and have an effect on tranist regulations and insurance.  I don't like it either, any more than I like them using mazak, a problem material that the Chinese system of QC is particularly inept at dealing with, but that's the world we live in and at least you can do something about lubrication, unlike mazak which will destroy a model years after it's warranty has expired with nothing you can do about it!  I have, touch wood, had little problem with it, but buying a loco new or secondhand with parts made of it is a lottery I don't want to come up on!

 

I have no tips about buying secondhand online; I would prefer not to but I am a poor pensioner who has to watch his money, and some stuff I want is not currently available new.  Buying secondhand from my local model shop is the same a buying new; the loco is track tested in your presence before you had over the money, and you can inspect it as closely as you like.  Buying online is an act of faith; I have yet to be badly burned but I have been singed.  I avoid eBay descriptions which are clearly written by people who do not know anything about railways or model railways 'locomotive train with coal wagon' (tender loco) and so on, or with photos which are clearly not of what is described in the offer.  If it feels dodgy, it probably is.  'Spares or repair' is at least an attempt at honesty, but terms like 'mint in box' could mean anything, and often not what the seller wants you to think it means.  It doesn't actually say categorically that the loco has never been taken out of the box, though that is what is being suggested/inferred/imputed, it just means that a loco in what the seller thinks is 'as new' condition has been put in a box.

 

I'd also avoid anything that promotes a model as 'rare' or 'collectable'; again, these are very subjective terms and the seller probably doesn't mean he wants you to think he means, and very likely has no idea what is and isn't rare.  Somebody's been trying to knock out a Triang dock shunter for very silly money which is 'extemely rare' because it has a snowplough for over a year with no success, and I assume he's a dealer of some sort or it would have been taken down otherwise; a dealer can afford to wait for a sucker to come along!  

 

If you have a less than expected experience that is not so bad as to return the model but it wasn't the bargain you first thought it was, note the seller and avoid him in future, or if you do deal with him go in with your eyes open.  I recently bought an 'MIB' 56xx on 'Bay which came in a box describing a loco with a different livery and turned out to have been resprayed black from a green livery.  Badly; black paint had strayed on to the buffer beams and cab front windows.  I think this may well have been a dealer trying to offload a returned loco, as there were minor faults such as flash on the boiler top handrail and poor registering on the smokebox number; the unicyling lions were peeling off and clearly not the original Bachmann print.  The price was not unreasonable for what it was, but it felt as if I'd had the wool pulled over a bit.

 

I do not bother with eBay auctions any more; they suck time, and I'd much rather 'buy it now'.  I also think this weeds out the worst of the dodgy, as sellers try to get the best price they can rather than asking for something reasonable. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

 

I'd also avoid anything that promotes a model as 'rare' or 'collectable'; again, these are very subjective terms and the seller probably doesn't mean he wants you to think he means, and very likely has no idea what is and isn't rare.  Somebody's been trying to knock out a Triang dock shunter for very silly money which is 'extemely rare' because it has a snowplough for over a year with no success, and I assume he's a dealer of some sort or it would have been taken down otherwise; a dealer can afford to wait for a sucker to come along!  

 

 

 

I'm guessing Gostude or Cartmel just by reading that description.

 

 

Seems I'm right. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRI-ANG-RAILWAYS-MODEL-No-R-279-0-4-0-DIESEL-DOCK-SHUNTER-WITH-SNOWPLOUGH-RARE0/401489397792?hash=item5d7aa20820:g:Kz0AAOSwol5Yxvy7:rk:1:pf:0

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Simon Lee]

Usually take a9 volt battery to Toyfairs, gives a quick indication if the loco runs in both directions. A reasonable dealer won't object if you want to do a quick check on any loco your interested in.

[Guest teacupteacup]

All of my 4mm loco's were bought 2nd hand, 90% are great runners and have needed no more than wheel clean.  One is a non-runner but it was advertised as that and its caused by solidified factory lubrication, which I'll get rid of when I get a round tuit.  The others that werent so great runners where stripped down, wheels, pick-ups (bushes etc in Lima motors) give a good clean.  All of those are great runners now.  The worse was a Mainline 45 which had split gears, sold as a good runner.  I could have returned it but I had spare gearsets and 10 mins later, it ran great.  I ended up selling that loco for nearly 3 times what I paid.

 

The worst that can happen is that you are sold a dog, but then the distance selling rules come in to force.  Though as mentioned above, if you get one that stinks of smoke then I dont think you'd have any comeback but a good scrub will sort it out.

 

If you see a loco at an exhibition, if the seller doesnt have a way of testing, tell the trader you'll get it tested on a layout and if it doesnt work you'll bring it back.  If the trader refuses, walk away.  Most will welcome you to do that

 

If something seems too cheap to be true, then its usually masking something - but not always and shouldnt be overlooked

[Cheshire001]

A few random thoughts.

 

Bought quite a bit of 2nd hand over the years.   Mostly quite good.   I avoid Mainline totally.   Nice bodies, but infamous mechanisms.   

 

Non-runners can be quite easy to fix.   I tend to put power leads directly across motor terminals.   Then we know if the motor works without worrying about all the pickups and loose wires we may have.   Clean the wheels with Servisol 10 - squirt some on a cloth of kitchen paper then spin the wheels.   I almost guarantee you'll get 2 black marks off even a 'clean' loco.   Also worked well with a squirt into a 'dead' pancake motor.   Just give it a few seconds to dry out a bit.   Incidentally even locos in my own collection will hardly run at times even though stored in a clean dry room.   Bit of TLC and a wheel clean usually does the trick.

 

Revived 2 locos sold as "DCC ready non-runner" by removing the defective DCC chip and inserting a spare blanking plate.   Got a decent knock off, don't know why the dealer didn't think of this!   To be honest one of the biggest sources of trouble are the big circuit boards in all modern locos.   At times I'm tempted to throw them out and hard wire the motor to the pickups.

 

Always wary of an eBay seller who doesn't mention that his loco is in working order.   Best assume it won't run unless it says otherwise.   Is the price low enough to risk getting some spare parts?

 

The worst description I have ever seen on eBay was for a loco that was 'Bachmann' in the heading, but 'Dapol' in the description;  had a Dapol 7mm reference number alongside the words "oo gauge";  it was listed under O-gauge locos and was described as unused even though the lining was partly worn away!    Sellers like this just spoil it for the decent folk out there!

[John M]

The majority of my large scale 1:20.3 locos are discontinued items 10-15 years old, purchased second hand on e-Bay from the UK or States. My purchases are about 50/50 from dealers and individuals, I usually rely on the photos of the model to get an idea of condition and the level of wear, fortunately a lot of 1:20.3 scale locos that end up on the second hand market tend to be "shelf queens" rather than layout locos that have put up a lot of mileage.

 

I inspect clean and lubricate the running gear and transmissions on my locos before they enter service, carrying out a partial strip down in order to convert to battery radio control.

 

The only loco that I had significant issues with was a Bachmann American DRGW K27 narrow gauge 2-8-2 tender loco. Bachmann released a single production run of the loco about 10 years ago, my loco was clearly a "layout loco" that had run a high mileage, an brass idler gear failed in the gearbox within a month of purchase and the plastic leading pony truck broke up after 12 months. The gear failure appears to have arisen as a result of a combination of wear and design issues

 

Fortunately the complete gearbox was available from Bachmann as a spare part, I purchased a replacement gearbox & a spare gearbox and motor on the basis that the replacement gearbox may wear out in another 10 years! I fabricated a new pony truck from brass.

 

The alternative to buying the Bachmann K27 was an Accucraft loco at about twice the price so despite the issues time and expense the Bachmann loco turned out to be a good buy. 

 

I guess the lesson is that its worthwhile checking on the availability of spare parts or a replacement chassis when considering buying a used loco on e-bay or at a swap meet, and if you want something go for it!

[Damo666]

Thanks to everyone who contributed with an answer.

 

I guess the bottom line seem to be that, unless the loco is one of those models susceptible to Mazak (and I'm aware of the separate thread on this forum listing models with a history of mazak), then most problems can be either fixed or repaired, with spare parts being available. I was going to ask how long do manufacturer's guarantee that they will keep spare parts after a model ends production, but with shops like Peter's Spares, Lendons in Cardiff and a gentleman in Porth (S.Wales), (other suppliers available), there seems to be a good supply of spare parts out there. (I should note, usual disclaimer with these, just a grateful customer, but I did meet the 'guy from Porth' at the Cardiff exhibition at the weekend who sorted me out on an obscure Hornby Golden Plover part, for which I was grateful).

 

Apart from the Golden Plover (Charity Shop impulse purchase, but for some reason had wires cut internally (go figure!)), I'm mainly interested in modern era, so the recent models should (i) unlikely be affected by Mazak, (ii) more recent manufacture, so unlikely seized with grease and (iii) more recent so spares less rare.

 

Beside my one and only second-hand purchase from a charity shop, I now feel more confident in buying second-hand. Thank you.

[E3109]

These days I always give a thought to used items and so far I’ve always been happy with what I’ve bought. However one item I did by recently had to be stripped and cleaned thoroughly as it stunk of nicotine!

Might have been one of mine then Trevor!

I realise this may be a bit un-PC these days but for me, there's nowt like having a fag to concentrate the mind, while carving off or adding detail bits to locos and stock.

When I was a kid, my next door neighbour was a keen Southern modeller and to this day, I associate the not unpleasant whiff of his specialist pipe baccy with the SR...

[57xx]

Don't wish to go OT, (especially as it's my topic), but I've recently bought a few new locos, mainly from the reputable shops we all know. As I don't have a layout yet and so haven't run any of them, should I be checking to see if they are gunged up with lots of grease?

 

You can either get a rolling road or, better, a circle of R2 set track that you can put down and take up when finished to run the engines. I've found the rolling road is good for general running in, but quirky running characteristics don't show up until the loco is trying to haul itself around (or not hauling itself in the case of one of the OR Deans I had that couldn't even drag it's own tender around the test track). Given the quality of some manufacturer's RTR releases these days, it's essential to run then rather than just glancing over them so you can get them replaced in a timely fashion. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by 57xx

[The Johnster]

Thanks to everyone who contributed with an answer.

 

I guess the bottom line seem to be that, unless the loco is one of those models susceptible to Mazak (and I'm aware of the separate thread on this forum listing models with a history of mazak), then most problems can be either fixed or repaired, with spare parts being available. I was going to ask how long do manufacturer's guarantee that they will keep spare parts after a model ends production, but with shops like Peter's Spares, Lendons in Cardiff and a gentleman in Porth (S.Wales), (other suppliers available), there seems to be a good supply of spare parts out there. (I should note, usual disclaimer with these, just a grateful customer, but I did meet the 'guy from Porth' at the Cardiff exhibition at the weekend who sorted me out on an obscure Hornby Golden Plover part, for which I was grateful).

 

Apart from the Golden Plover (Charity Shop impulse purchase, but for some reason had wires cut internally (go figure!)), I'm mainly interested in modern era, so the recent models should (i) unlikely be affected by Mazak, (ii) more recent manufacture, so unlikely seized with grease and (iii) more recent so spares less rare.

 

Beside my one and only second-hand purchase from a charity shop, I now feel more confident in buying second-hand. Thank you.

 

There is, or was at one time, some sort of restriction on charity shops selling electrical items in working condition, because of possible claims against them if the users got themselves electrocuted or set fire to something.  This may explain Golden Plover's cut wires.

 

I wouldn't rule mazak out as a potential problem even with more recent models; as I've said I'd prefer it wasn't used in RTR models, but it is, to keep costs down.  Chinese production does not take place in a single factory; they tend to have small, almost cottage industry, facilities all over the place, and it's a big country, but connected to the internet.  A CAD is sent to several foundries or casting facilities, the castings made, probably without any conception of what they're for but to the drawing's specs, and shipped out to be painted somewhere, then onwards to an assembly and packing facility which is what we think of as the 'factory'.  Quality control is difficult to institute and to maintain in such circumstances, especially when the foundry may itself subcontract the work out to another one if it is short of production capacity.

 

The problem with mazak is it's exact compostion, so a quality controller has to take a sample and have it tested and anylised; he can't make a decision to pass the batch without delaying it, so is under pressure not to.