Newly discovered forest tramway

[terrysoham]

I went on a course held at the HighLodge Activity Centre at Santon Downham near Thetford on Saturday. A mixture of railway enthusiasts, archeologists and historians put their heads together to try to find out the possible route of this known tramway by walking from places where it was known to exist. It was used to transport urgently needed timber from the forests at the end of WW1. We know it was constructed with the help of a men from the Canadian Forestry Corps.

 

I’d like to model this railway in 009. I know that one of the three locos was an 0-4-0 Bagnall. Can anyone supply me with a photo? Is there a rtr model in 009?

 

 

 

 

Regards

[russ p]

Sounds interesting, I've never heard of that before

[PhilJ W]

Any more information such as the route it took and any name?

[Nearholmer]

Have you seen this? http://santondownham.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FCA-March-06-SD.pdf

 

And, this https://archive.org/stream/canadianforestry00birduoft#page/n91

 

I traced the routes in Woburn Forest as best I could, and reported the results in The Narrow Gauge about three years ago, my main sources being the CFC War Diaries, which are available on-line, if/when the server is working, OS maps pre-and post WW1, and hundreds of dog walks, which meant I knew the terrain very well.

 

The best 'enthusiast' book is 

The Kerry Tramway and Other Timber Light Railways Paperback – 1 Jul 1992

by David Cox (Author), Christopher Krupa (Author).

 

The Bagnall at Thetford was, going from memory here, moved there from Woburn, where it had arrived to replace a loco that, so far as I can work out, was a KS 0-6-0T previously at Virginia Water. "Peter" in the Amberley collection is an ex-CFC standard Bagnall, so should help give you an idea, although it is 2ft gauge (and I think always has been), whereas I think Thetford was 3ft gauge.

 

Good luck with all this - very interesting operations, with very interesting railways!

 

Kevin

 

Edit: checked, and "Peter" was 3ft gauge originally, so originally probably identical to the Thetford loco.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[terrysoham]

Any more information such as the route it took and any name?

The routes are only speculative - unsurprisingly no maps show it.

The scarcity of information is not a problem - I will produce a model based on the existing photos of logging in Scotland and bedfordshire

 

Regard

[Nearholmer]

Do you know what the other locos were? I don’t have the relevant IRS book, which may have the detail.

[terrysoham]

Having read about the Book

Have you seen this? http://santondownham.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FCA-March-06-SD.pdf

 

And, this https://archive.org/stream/canadianforestry00birduoft#page/n91

 

I traced the routes in Woburn Forest as best I could, and reported the results in The Narrow Gauge about three years ago, my main sources being the CFC War Diaries, which are available on-line, if/when the server is working, OS maps pre-and post WW1, and hundreds of dog walks, which meant I knew the terrain very well.

 

The best 'enthusiast' book is 

The Kerry Tramway and Other Timber Light Railways Paperback[/size] – 1 Jul 1992[/size]

by David Cox (Author), Christopher Krupa (Author).

 

The Bagnall at Thetford was, going from memory here, moved there from Woburn, where it had arrived to replace a loco that, so far as I can work out, was a KS 0-6-0T previously at Virginia Water. "Peter" in the Amberley collection is an ex-CFC standard Bagnall, so should help give you an idea, although it is 2ft gauge (and I think always has been), whereas I think Thetford was 3ft gauge.

 

Good luck with all this - very interesting operations, with very interesting railways!

 

Kevin

 

Edit: checked, and "Peter" was 3ft gauge originally, so originally probably identical to the Thetford loco.

Thank you for your help. In the book about the Kerry tramway, page 59 has some interesting info regarding a Bagnall E 2081

purchased by the Timber Supply Department and supplied to Downham Hall (a country house which was taken over by the Canadian Forestry Corps. as their HQ.). So it is possible that this loco ran on the forest tramway but there are still some unknowns, for example, what was the Gauge o& said loco.

 

Anyone got any references to the hydro electric scheme at Kinlochleven, Scotland as the Bagnal E 2081 was used in the construction

 

Regards

[highpeakman]

Having read about the Book

Thank you for your help. In the book about the Kerry tramway, page 59 has some interesting info regarding a Bagnall E 2081

purchased by the Timber Supply Department and supplied to Downham Hall (a country house which was taken over by the Canadian Forestry Corps. as their HQ.). So it is possible that this loco ran on the forest tramway but there are still some unknowns, for example, what was the Gauge o& said loco.

 

Anyone got any references to the hydro electric scheme at Kinlochleven, Scotland as the Bagnal E 2081 was used in the construction

 

Regards

 

Not sure if this will help but one of the above articles states that it is a Decauville system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decauville

 

Still a choice gauges but it seems that 600mm  (1 ft 11 5/8) was the military standard - further information might turn up.

Edited October 29, 2018 by highpeakman

[Nearholmer]

‘Decauville’ is commonly used as a generic term for portable narrow gauge railways; it’s the equivalent of ‘biro’ or ‘hoover’. I wouldn’t read too much into it unless there is solid evidence that some part of it was supplied by Decauville.

 

CFC standard gauge was 3ft in Britain, although they did use others, and by tracing the locos backwards I think you will be able to confirm that it was 3ft.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Nearholmer

[terrysoham]

I am hopeful of finding some documentary evidence to support the view that the track gauge was 3’. If modelling the tramway in HOe the track gauge will have to be about 2’6” ish. I was thinking of using the drawing on p 23 and the photo on p 59 in the Kerry tramway book to construct the Bagnall 0-4-0 saddle tank which was probably used on the forest tramway near Santon Downham near Thetford. I shall use the 0-4-0 Minitrains chassis.

 

Regards

[terrysoham]

I’m looking for a book called. The untold story of Britain’s logging railways. - tried Amazon but no luck. Where else might I try?

[brack]

Bagnall w/n 2081 was a 3'0" gauge 7" X 12" 040st with 1'9.5" wheels despatched 2/1919 to Ministry of Munitions OC 126 Company Canadian Forestry Corps Downham Hall Brandon Suffolk according to the works list in Baker & Civil's enormous Bagnall book. It is the same specifications as Peter (preserved at amberley, but regauged to 2'0"). Peter (no.2067) was initially sent to the Canadian Forestry Corps at longtown.

All 3' gauge MofM locos seem to have been 7" locos, whereas the 2' gauge MofM locos had 6" X 9" cylinders and 1'7" wheels and were a smaller design, although all bagnall standard NG 040st types had a close family resemblance

[Nearholmer]

Excellent!

I was going to dig out my copy of the big green book and go through the list later this evening, and brack has saved me a good deal of work ...... most of my books are still packed away as I go through a prolonged reorganisation of the study.

The ‘untold story’ title sounds like a sub-title; it’s not Cox & Krupa is it?

Otherwise, I’ve never heard of it in c50 years being mildly obsessed by narrow gauge railways, so I can only suggest contacting the NGRS librarians, who are mega-helpful.

 

Incidentally, the 'close family resemblance' between Bagnall's got me into trouble when I had my account of the Woburn CFC operation published, because I illustrated it with a Bagnall trade postcard that purports to show a 7" loco, only to have it pointed out that it was in fact a 6" loco, which Bagnall themselves were using as a "stand in" on the card!

Edited October 29, 2018 by Nearholmer

[brack]

the big green book

I always thought that "Baker & Civil's Bumper Book of Bagnalls" would've been a better title. Excellent book and one I find myself referring to time and again. It is really quite comprehensive. I would suggest it is definitely a 3' line.

[terrysoham]

Excellent!

I was going to dig out my copy of the big green book and go through the list later this evening, and brack has saved me a good deal of work ...... most of my books are still packed away as I go through a prolonged reorganisation of the study.

The ‘untold story’ title sounds like a sub-title; it’s not Cox & Krupa is it?

Otherwise, I’ve never heard of it in c50 years being mildly obsessed by narrow gauge railways, so I can only suggest contacting the NGRS librarians, who are mega-helpful.

 

Silly me. It is not so obviously the publisher’s review of the Kerry Tramway book on the back cover of said book! I blame it on what is left of my brain after my stroke!!

[terrysoham]

I always thought that "Baker & Civil's Bumper Book of Bagnalls" would've been a better title. Excellent book and one I find myself referring to time and again. It is really quite comprehensive. I would suggest it is definitely a 3' line.

 

Thanks for that piece of. Information

[terrysoham]

*****Update****

 

I have had my first meeting with a fellow modeller, David Bourne, to discuss the model which we will rename as the High Lodge Logging Railway. We have agreed that it will be a diorama probably 7mm/ft using 21mm track. Built on a lightweight foam core baseboard. It will not need a locomotive as we will construct a model of a donkey engine to rope haul the loaded wagons up a 1 in 50 incline which is probably steeper then was the prototype. We decided against loco haulage due to the fact that i would like to keep it simple.

[Nearholmer]

Wrightlines used to make this kit in 7mm/ft; not sure if they still exist, let alone make the kit.

 

A pal of mine has one that he made a beautiful job of.

[cctransuk]

Wrightlines used to make this kit in 7mm/ft; not sure if they still exist, let alone make the kit.

 

A pal of mine has one that he made a beautiful job of.

 

The original version of this kit, as produced by Roy Link, was superb !

 

The standard of casting was WAY beyond anything that I had ever seen; (or have seen since); and it was a dream to build.

 

In fact, so exquisite was the kit that I was inspired to modify it to incorporate full, working, Bagnall-Price valvegear.

 

The kit then pased to Wrightlines, in a somewhat 'dumbed-down' version, and has probably become another victim of Adrian Swain's health problems; the same problems that have engulfed ABS and the other brands under which he traded.

 

A great shame - and all my sympathy goes to Adrian.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Nearholmer]

Ah, that rings bell.

 

The kit my pal used was an RCL one, quite a lot of etched brass.

 

I built RCL's KS(?) 0-6-0WT, in 0-14, sometime after, and that was a very fine kit too, but it really tested my capabilities. I can't say that I really did it justice, but when I eventually sold it the new owner seemed very happy!

[cctransuk]

Ah, that rings bell.

 

The kit my pal used was an RCL one, quite a lot of etched brass.

 

I built RCL's KS(?) 0-6-0WT, in 0-14, sometime after, and that was a very fine kit too, but it really tested my capabilities. I can't say that I really did it justice, but when I eventually sold it the new owner seemed very happy!

 

Yes - my Bagnall, along with a Roy Link Simplex, a Sierra Leone Government Railways 2-6-2T from (I can't recall; Ron Cadman?), and a Wrightlines WD Baldwin were sold to fund my Unimat lathe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I sometimes regret the sale - but I doubt that I'd have built a layout for them. (Don't be mislead - the models are posed before a calendar photo, on a bit of loose tract and ballast)!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited November 4, 2018 by cctransuk

[Nearholmer]

Very nice engines!

[EddieB]

Do you know what the other locos were? I don’t have the relevant IRS book, which may have the detail.

The IRS East Anglia handbook lists Bagnalls 2081, 2085 and 2086 being at Santon Downham.  Of the three, only 2086/1919 passed to the Downham Syndicate, which company bought the tramway and timber rights at auction in December 1919.  Potted histories of all three locomotives are given in the handbook.

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks.

 

Am I right that one of them was transferred from Woburn (Aspley Heath) CFC?

 

The Woburn (Aspley Heath) system hadn't been identified as being loco-worked when the Bucks, Beds & Northants book was compiled; its only shown in the 'non-loco' section.

 

Kevin

[Nearholmer]

The War Diary server seems to be working again!

 

This page is CFC 53 District, here is what you want. http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/lac-bac/results/images?module=images&SortSpec=score+desc&Language=eng&ShowForm=hide&SearchIn_1=mikanNumber&SearchInText_1=2006022&Operator_1=AND&SearchIn_2=&SearchInText_2=&Operator_2=AND&SearchIn_3=&SearchInText_3=&Level=&MaterialDateOperator=after&MaterialDate=&DigitalImages=1&Source=&ResultCount=10

 

Items of interest to you are around p157 onwards, and you are very lucky, because yours was 126th Company, who had the most verbose diarist, who put in vast amounts of detail compared with other units. He was the chap who wrote the book about the Ampthill CFC operation that is often cited by other sources, including Cox & Krupa.