Wishlist poll - industrial locomotive additional

[Ruston]

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced that it's a waste of time.

 

Let's face it, industrial railways and locomotives are a minority interest. Sure, a handful of industrial prototypes have been made into RTR models but have the manufacturers chosen the prototypes because of the results of a poll? Obvioulsy not because there hasn't been a meaningful poll to date. Even if there had been, I doubt that they would have paid it much attention.

 

The Hornby Sentinel 4wDH was the first out of the blocks and they seem to have sold reasonably well and the second model from Hornby, the W4 Peckett, seems to have been a runaway success. There are something like 130 pages  of froth about the Peckett in the Hornby section of this forum and the thread has had over a quarter of a million views...

 

But how many of those models have been bought by industrial railway enthusiasts/modellers? If this section of the forum, and what I see at exhibtions, is any kind of measure then I'd say very few. They've been bought by collectors, by folks who just like the look of something because it's "cute", or to run round the sort of generic roundy-roundy layout where people will run anything they want. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course; it's their trainset etc. etc. What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that what "proper" industrial modellers want is neither here nor there. Whatever industrial loco a manufuacturer puts out,  industrial modellers are a small fraction of sales, so we have virtually no influence in what is or isn't made.

 

Hornby and Hattons didn't just pick something out of thin air and decide to make a model of it - they will have done their own market research and will know what is likely to sell - the market was obviously ripe for a small industrial tank engine. They would have still sold as well if the models had been a Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0ST and an Avonside 0-4-0ST, rather than a Peckett and a Barclay. Most buyers wouldn't care and those that do would have bought them anyway. I know I did. I didn't care about having a W4 Peckett until one was put in front of me and then I wanted one.

 

They're going to pick something that will sell to as many people as possible and that can be put out in as many different liveries as possible for as long as possible. I think we can safely say that another 0-4-0ST isn't likely anytime soon from a RTR manufacturer. If anything is to come next it will be a small diesel, probably an 0-4-0, and/or a medium-sized 0-6-0 tank engine because there's nothing else that fits those niches. Other things, such as a fireless, or a crane tank, could be possibilites but that's the sort of thing that they will choose to do regardless of which particular fireless or crane tank a hundred or so people on here want to vote on. Again, people will buy them because what other fireless or crane tank can you buy RTR?

 

If we are going to have any influence on what models are made at all it's with the kit manufacturers. They are folks who you can actually talk to, both on here and at exhibitions, and who know about what it is you're banging on about. These are the folks who have supported industrial modelling way before RTR companies got in on the act. Without them there would be virtually no industrial railway modelling. You have far more chance of getting the model that you want by talking to the bloke who makes the kits than you do from a poll, hoping that someone from a big company actually takes any notice, and the one that you want actually goes into production.

 

And if anyone says that they can't build kits the answer is to learn. Even the best modellers were not born with the ability to use a soldering iron...

[Gibbo675]

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced that it's a waste of time.

 

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that what "proper" industrial modellers want is neither here nor there. Whatever industrial loco a manufacturer puts out,  industrial modellers are a small fraction of sales, so we have virtually no influence in what is or isn't made.

 

They're going to pick something that will sell to as many people as possible and that can be put out in as many different liveries as possible for as long as possible.

 

If we are going to have any influence on what models are made at all it's with the kit manufacturers. They are folks who you can actually talk to, both on here and at exhibitions, and who know about what it is you're banging on about.

 

And if anyone says that they can't build kits the answer is to learn. Even the best modellers were not born with the ability to use a soldering iron...

Hi Ruston,

 

I know where you are coming from, I can see that your modeling projects come from the heart whereas the RTR manufacturers have to make business decisions with their heads and therein lies the problem.

 

I'm currently developing a Cartic-4 kit for myself because I cannot source a suitable one to buy. I am fortunate to have the ability to be able to do so, this ability comes from the heart. Anyone that wants to do something will do so in some way, form or another.

 

Gibbo.

[Corbs]

hmmm...... maybe so.

 

I originally wrote an emotional post here but have thought better of it, I kind of want to satisfy my own curiosity.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Corbs

[Walkden]

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced that it's a waste of time.

 

Let's face it, industrial railways and locomotives are a minority interest. Sure, a handful of industrial prototypes have been made into RTR models but have the manufacturers chosen the prototypes because of the results of a poll? Obvioulsy not because there hasn't been a meaningful poll to date. Even if there had been, I doubt that they would have paid it much attention.

 

The Hornby Sentinel 4wDH was the first out of the blocks and they seem to have sold reasonably well and the second model from Hornby, the W4 Peckett, seems to have been a runaway success. There are something like 130 pages  of froth about the Peckett in the Hornby section of this forum and the thread has had over a quarter of a million views...

 

But how many of those models have been bought by industrial railway enthusiasts/modellers? If this section of the forum, and what I see at exhibtions, is any kind of measure then I'd say very few. They've been bought by collectors, by folks who just like the look of something because it's "cute", or to run round the sort of generic roundy-roundy layout where people will run anything they want. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course; it's their trainset etc. etc. What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that what "proper" industrial modellers want is neither here nor there. Whatever industrial loco a manufuacturer puts out,  industrial modellers are a small fraction of sales, so we have virtually no influence in what is or isn't made.

 

Hornby and Hattons didn't just pick something out of thin air and decide to make a model of it - they will have done their own market research and will know what is likely to sell - the market was obviously ripe for a small industrial tank engine. They would have still sold as well if the models had been a Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0ST and an Avonside 0-4-0ST, rather than a Peckett and a Barclay. Most buyers wouldn't care and those that do would have bought them anyway. I know I did. I didn't care about having a W4 Peckett until one was put in front of me and then I wanted one.

 

They're going to pick something that will sell to as many people as possible and that can be put out in as many different liveries as possible for as long as possible. I think we can safely say that another 0-4-0ST isn't likely anytime soon from a RTR manufacturer. If anything is to come next it will be a small diesel, probably an 0-4-0, and/or a medium-sized 0-6-0 tank engine because there's nothing else that fits those niches. Other things, such as a fireless, or a crane tank, could be possibilites but that's the sort of thing that they will choose to do regardless of which particular fireless or crane tank a hundred or so people on here want to vote on. Again, people will buy them because what other fireless or crane tank can you buy RTR?

 

If we are going to have any influence on what models are made at all it's with the kit manufacturers. They are folks who you can actually talk to, both on here and at exhibitions, and who know about what it is you're banging on about. These are the folks who have supported industrial modelling way before RTR companies got in on the act. Without them there would be virtually no industrial railway modelling. You have far more chance of getting the model that you want by talking to the bloke who makes the kits than you do from a poll, hoping that someone from a big company actually takes any notice, and the one that you want actually goes into production.

 

And if anyone says that they can't build kits the answer is to learn. Even the best modellers were not born with the ability to use a soldering iron...

Hi Ruston ,

while it might be a waste of time as far as RTR manufacturers are concerned , it has created debate between people , me for one, 

and while i find it very difficult to comment much due to severe dyslexia , just typing this is difficult ! 

 

I chose to comment because, i have had a lifelong interest in industrial railways more of the 12inch to the foot scale variety , and even thought this might not be picked up by mainstream manufacturers ,

i am sure that kit producers might take note , and perhaps produse something..  given the debate , and even though i dont model at the moment , i for one would purchase something if i found interest in it , like the three as yet unbuilt Brassmasters ' Austerity's ' i own amongst others

 

it's a shame that PGH that has stopped posting as i am sure he would have lots of suggestions and prototypical photos to post , and would add that his modeling is pure masterful. and inspirational 

 

So while we will always be i the minority , let that be, and let's hope that 'our' interest continues... 

 

Corbs if you see this , could you add to the list of 0-4-0 diesel locomotives pole , the Fowler 0-4-0 that came between the '421' class as Ruston has called them and the later ones , over 150 were produced , working  in the MOD and industry and BR , the ED1 to ED7 numbers come to mind ? am sure PGH could enlighten us all .

i for one would buy several 

 

regards

[Moxy]

 

Corbs if you see this , could you add to the list of 0-4-0 diesel locomotives pole , the Fowler 0-4-0 that came between the '421' class as Ruston has called them and the later ones , over 150 were produced , working  in the MOD and industry and BR , the ED1 to ED7 numbers come to mind ? am sure PGH could enlighten us all .

i for one would buy several 

 

 

The 421 is in the 0-4-0 poll here, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139231-poll-which-industrial-diesel-0-4-04w-should-be-made-in-rtr-industrial-loco-poll-3/

 

Regards

 

Moxy

[Ruston]

I said that it was a waste of time but I didn't expect it to be for the reason that the people behind the so-called Wishlist Poll aren't going to bother with industrials at all next time. - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139197-results-the-wishlist-poll-2018/?p=3360683 - it confirms what I thought all along about their attitude to industrial locomotives and the modelling thereof.

 

It's a shame that Corbs put in all his efforts in setting up polls just for it to be completely ignored.

 

Fire up the soldering irons, folks; it's back to business as usual...

Edited November 22, 2018 by Ruston

[Corbs]

Heya,

 

Yes I found out that the industrial section is being dropped from the wishlist poll a while ago. I haven't posted anything about it yet, I certainly won't delete or trash the existing polls, but I won't start any new polls.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ruston

 

Could you tell me where in that posting you found the words 'can't be bothered'?

 

Both you and Corbs have had explanatory PMs in response to your enquiries. If we 'couldn't be bothered' you wouldn't have heard from us.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Chris116]

Without wishing to put words into anyones mouths, I think the poll team have come to the conclusion that trying to do OO and N is too much for the team. Industrial stock is a very specialist area and they give me the impression that they feel they are not equipped, knowledge wise, to do the subject properly. Therefore the poll team have dropped N and Industial OO to concentrate on the area where they feel they can do the subject justice. 

 

The polls that Corbs has run have shown that if he were to get a small team of people with the knowledge required then maybe a second poll team can be put together for Industrial OO which Andy York may be willing to help in the same way as he has the current team. I totally disagree with Ruston that Corbs has wasted his time or that the polls are being ignored. Corbs and Ruston could form the start of the new poll team with a few others who are knowledgable on the subject of Industial practice. Far from sabotaging the Industrial OO, the current team have pulled out due to a lack of knowledge and left the field open to those who can do the justice to the subject which I think is good news for those who want the subject covered in depth.

 

N gauge would also benefit from a team to do a poll on 2mm models.

 

Sorry for dropping you into another potential job Andy but your knowledge in the area of running polls would be needed to give the new polls the ability to be as respected as the current OO poll is. 

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Chris

 

Whilst we have a number of Poll Team members who have some knowledge of the subject, that is just one of the reasons for us not running Industrials. The major problem would be the space required with the number of individual items that we calculated would be needed. It is best left as 'stand alone' so that it can be done justice by a specialist team.

 

I gather that an N Team might be on the horizon - but that will be for that team to announce as and when they see fit.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Ruston]

Hello Ruston

 

Could you tell me where in that posting you found the words 'can't be bothered'?

 

Both you and Corbs have had explanatory PMs in response to your enquiries. If we 'couldn't be bothered' you wouldn't have heard from us.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

You have said that you won't be including industrials and that your decision is final - can't be bothered, or whatever excuse you want to give, it's still the same result.

 

You're ignoring the wants of everyone who voted in the polls that Corbs set up and you've ignored the efforts of people here to sort things out and to help you. I really don't know why any of us bothered and I certainly won't be wasting any more of my time on this pointless excercise.

[Chris116]

You have said that you won't be including industrials and that your decision is final - can't be bothered, or whatever excuse you want to give, it's still the same result.

 

You're ignoring the wants of everyone who voted in the polls that Corbs set up and you've ignored the efforts of people here to sort things out and to help you. I really don't know why any of us bothered and I certainly won't be wasting any more of my time on this pointless excercise.

Far from being a pointless exercise, it has shown that a poll is needed but the current team do not feel thay can do the job properly. Now the job is to set up a team for Industrial OO and take things forward, do not be too quick to drop out of something that is obviously important to you and many others. I am sure you would be able to put a positive contrbution to an Industrial OO Poll Team and I hope you will join Corbs and others who may wish to take this forward.

[Regularity]

Ah.

Sub-contracting.

Maybe the results of Corbs’ work here could be included in the report?

[Corbs]

Doing a specific industrial poll could be interesting (and would mean less wastage of work so far). My concern would be the comparative lack of reach compared to the megapoll, and having to do as much work as the main poll team to promote such a poll, I don't think I could commit as much time to it as the poll team currently do.

[Ruston]

Doing a specific industrial poll could be interesting (and would mean less wastage of work so far). My concern would be the comparative lack of reach compared to the megapoll, and having to do as much work as the main poll team to promote such a poll, I don't think I could commit as much time to it as the poll team currently do.

Never mind the main poll. They don't want to know so let's forget that. Think instead of how the results can help the kit manufacturers who specialise in our sort of stuff. Not only the established kit manufacturers, such as Mike Edge, Chris Gibbons and others but the Narrow Planet guys who are now dipping a toe into the water of standard gauge industrial. There are also the 3D print guys who could be tempted into making what we want.

[Andy Y]

You have said that you won't be including industrials and that your decision is final - can't be bothered, or whatever excuse you want to give, it's still the same result.

 

You're ignoring the wants of everyone who voted in the polls that Corbs set up and you've ignored the efforts of people here to sort things out and to help you. I really don't know why any of us bothered and I certainly won't be wasting any more of my time on this pointless excercise.

I'm sorry Dave but I think it only right to try and address these comments.

 

Brian is one of the life's gentlemen and he's responded fairly. He, supported by the team, has invested a lot of time and care in the production and promotion of the poll content with no expectation of any reward other than producing something of interest to the modelling community. Your comments above seem to disregard that and infer that the team *should* be doing something that you want. Let me turn it around and ask how you would feel if you did something voluntarily but were criticised for your approach whilst you had got far more pressing and important personal circumstances? I think the answer to that lies in the fact you're already washing your hands of committing any efforts to moving the concept of an industrial specific forward.

 

I think Corbs is being a lot more pragmatic and understanding that it does involve time and effort; that's fine and anyone can make a call whether they wish to do such things but it's quite upsetting (when I know the circumstances) to see someone lambasted for not doing what you want them to do.

[Ruston]

I think you're being a little unfair, Andy. Of course I would put more pressing personal circumstances first but how is anyone to know about what is going on in someone else's life unless they know them personally and are privy to such things? I don't know Brian and have never met him.but I don't want to cause him or anyone any stress over it and I'm sorry if my posts have upset him.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Ruston

[Fenman]

I think you're being a little unfair, Andy. Of course I would put more pressing personal circumstances first but how is anyone to know about what is going on in someone else's life unless they know them personally and are privy to such things? I don't know Brian and have never met him.but I don't want to cause him or anyone any stress over it and I'm sorry if my posts have upset him.

You don’t have to know Brian (as I don’t): you could just read the post where he explained about his personal circumstances?

 

I’m an old fart so try to make allowances, but the repetition of “can’t be bothered” struck me as ungracious to the point of boorishness. I think Andy is being completely fair.

 

I’m sure I have rude lapses too, so you’re not alone.

 

Paul

[Ruston]

You don’t have to know Brian (as I don’t): you could just read the post where he explained about his personal circumstances?

 

I’m an old fart so try to make allowances, but the repetition of “can’t be bothered” struck me as ungracious to the point of boorishness. I think Andy is being completely fair.

 

I’m sure I have rude lapses too, so you’re not alone.

 

Paul

I'm sorry, Paul. I'm not going to stand for being made out to be some bad guy here. I could have read the post to which you refer but I haven't, and don't even know where this post is. I don't follow every post that is made on this forum.

 

I was just a bit miffed that despite some of us trying to sort out something for the poll, 'the team' have decided not to take any results from our own polls and include industrials in their poll next time. I think that I have a right to say that, even if you think that's boorish, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.if they do or they don't use the results. I've said that I'm sorry if Brian has been upset by my posts, so can we just leave it, please?

[Regularity]

With respect Andy, Dave’s point was that the original survey question on industrials was so vague as to be meaningless to those with a more than passing interest in industrials, and would be akin to the main section asking if people would like something as generic as, say, an “LNER goods engine”. Corbs, with Dave’s support and encouragement, has put quite a lot of effort into refining the question only for us to be informed after the fact that it won’t be used.

I don’t know Brian, or the poll team, and if nothing else I am grateful for their systematic approach to their survey and the way it removes a lot of the useless wish listing we used to see (not working in the “mainstream” little they do will ever be of direct benefit to me). However, I think they have been somewhat remiss in asking for a better question, then dropping the subject completely after the work was done. Dave’s reaction is perfectly valid, as is your opinion, but you might take the poll team’s behaviour here into consideration.

[Fenman]

I'm sorry, Paul. I'm not going to stand for being made out to be some bad guy here. I could have read the post to which you refer but I haven't, and don't even know where this post is. I don't follow every post that is made on this forum.

 

I was just a bit miffed that despite some of us trying to sort out something for the poll, 'the team' have decided not to take any results from our own polls and include industrials in their poll next time. I think that I have a right to say that, even if you think that's boorish, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.if they do or they don't use the results. I've said that I'm sorry if Brian has been upset by my posts, so can we just leave it, please?

I do understand that. So, just as you are narked that people have ascribed negative motivations to you without knowing all the facts, you can surely understand how you assigning negative motivations to Brian and his team in the same way might pee off some people?

 

I’m happy to leave it. And for the avoidance of doubt I thought Corbs was doing a great job.

 

Paul

[Corbs]

Thank you for your kind words. I must say that I think the poll team do a sterling job at the megapoll, which I can imagine is a gargantuan task, and whilst I do understand the wish to concentrate on other areas, I regret the timing of how it all turned out.

Had I known/acknowledged that the industrial section was under threat, or that it required refinement and more specificity like the other sections of the poll, I might have thought about doing something sooner, before the decision was made to drop the industrial section*.

As it happened, I fear it was too late and missed the opportunity to refine the section before the decision was made to not include it.

I would be willing to continue the research if there was a specific end goal to aim for - as it was, the aim was to submit a range of model types to include in the main poll, but as this is no longer an option, I would like to hear suggestions from anyone.

 

*I just want to acknowledge the work of Ruston and others who identified the issue and I was able to start the mini-polls based on their work. I did not have a hand in the initial stages of this thread or the first conversations and don't want to take any credit for that.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Corbs

[BMacdermott]

Hello Corbs

 

I wasn't going to write any more but will just add a parting note...

 

The Poll Team has been castigated here. But it is very easy to depict the view from the outside looking in, whereas our view from the inside looking out is very different! When your polls started appearing, we were stuck between a rock and a hard place knowing that the category was up for deletion on our agenda - but if we had 'broken radio silence', then the number of votes might have been affected. Then we would have had complaints.

 

We had a draft posting written all ready to send to you all the day after The Poll closed - ahead of any other comments we were going to make and contrary to any comments about us 'not being bothered' - but Ruston noted somewhere that he had pulled out of spending any more time on the subject. We deleted our draft. Then more polls started to appear. We had no option but to wait until we announced the Results. And please bear in mind that our 'major announcements' have to be 'approved' by all the nine Team members and they are not always on-line.

 

In an ideal world, things would have been different but - as I noted in my PM reply to yours - we felt you were on the right track, but asked you to expect the subject to take more work than you ever would have imagined. That's the way it is and you are finding out as you go. We've been there, done it etc etc etc! There was no ill-intent. Simply timings over-lapping.

 

Keep up your good work and see where it takes you. Let's all get back to calm modelling. That's what you do very well.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Edited November 23, 2018 by BMacdermott

[Corbs]

Thank you Brian, as I said it is a regret that the timings ended up being the way they did and I understand the situation that the poll team were/are in. If I reacted a bit over-emotionally to the cancellation news then I apologise.

In turn, I hope you and others can understand my reluctance to keep going without a specific 'end game' so I'm pondering what to do next.

[mdvle]

Doing a specific industrial poll could be interesting (and would mean less wastage of work so far).

 

I don't think your work has been wasted, nor the opinions/wishes of those who have posted to this thread.

 

If nothing else it has demonstrated that a common grouping of prototypes in the various categories can (and has) been made, and the poll results show some indication as to relative popularity.

 

It is true that one voted on by a wider audience the polls might get different results, but you have at least started a foundation that can be built on further, either with further polls in the future or through kit / rtr makers taking the results as part of their research into what to produce.

 

Short version, there is now more info available than there was before this started, and that usually isn't a bad thing.