Can you run a long train into small platform ?

[rob D2]

Hi,

Just wondering if, in this day of enhanced elf and safety , can you stop an overlong passenger train to pick up if some of the coaches are not in the platform ?

 

Thinking of charters for my next layout but not sure if it’s possible

[colin penfold]

I have been on charters recently that have done exactly that. They simply warn passengers to use the doors which are aligned to the platform.

 

Edit to add North Norfolk and GWSR preserved lines routinely do this too

Edited October 23, 2018 by colin penfold

[RJS1977]

And most modern trains have selective door opening to prevent doors being opened if they're not aligned with the platforms.

[brianthesnail96]

Until they extended (or more accurately unshortened!) the platforms in the last year or so, Stonehouse was regularly served by the 2 carriages of an HST set that would fit in the platform.

[Steamport Southport]

Hi,

Just wondering if, in this day of enhanced elf and safety , can you stop an overlong passenger train to pick up if some of the coaches are not in the platform ?

 

Thinking of charters for my next layout but not sure if it’s possible

 

Yes.

 

Some of the Merseyrail stations on the Wirral Line can't fit six car trains. Can't remember which ones though.

 

 

 

Jason

[bimble]

trains of 8 or 12 coaches stopping at Bentley, doors only open on the front 6. Ash Vale only has room for 8, but in the rush 12 coach trains are run.

[Rivercider]

Do 'grandfather rights' apply in this instance?

In that if you have a pre-existing station with a short platform, then you may run overlong trains which call at that station.

If there is a new-build station, (built after a specific date) then platforms must be constructed so that the whole of each train must be platformed.

 

cheers

[beast66606]

Yes.

 

Some of the Merseyrail stations on the Wirral Line can't fit six car trains. Can't remember which ones though.

 

 

 

Jason

 

None - Green Lane has extensions into the tunnel which passengers are told not to use but there is no selective opening. All other stations can take a 6-car without issue.

[hexagon789]

Hi,

Just wondering if, in this day of enhanced elf and safety , can you stop an overlong passenger train to pick up if some of the coaches are not in the platform ?

 

Thinking of charters for my next layout but not sure if it’s possible

Definitely. LNER's 2+9 HST sets are certainly too long for Stonehaven and at Falkirk Grahamston the two First Class vehicles end up alongside a wall painted with: "Do not alight here".

 

As others have said 'Grandfather rights apply'. It's happened in the past and so can continue to happen today. They do announce that passengers can only alight from certain coaches and to check there is a platform to step onto on approach. I believe GWR's sets had selective door unlocking. LNER's do not and there is nothing to stop you opening a door and stepping out into nothing at some stations!

[LBRJ]

You can also stop short trains at very short platforms!

All the stations on the Looe line can barely take a 150; and 4-car 158s used to stop at Devonport Dockyard.

[phil-b259]

Hi,

Just wondering if, in this day of enhanced elf and safety , can you stop an overlong passenger train to pick up if some of the coaches are not in the platform ?

 

Thinking of charters for my next layout but not sure if it’s possible

 

If the train is still fitted with manually operated doors (i.e. traditional slam doors) then it is permitted to stop at stations where the platform is shorter than the train. HSTs and charter stock  fall into this category.

 

However if the train is fitted with power worked doors then it can only call at stations where:-

 

(i) All passenger doors throughout the train are located adjacent to the platform (thin emergency platform extensions such as the situation at Green Lane described by Beast6606 or the situation at Barbican before the Thameslink Moorgate branch closed count as part of the platform for the purposes of this regulation).

 

Or

 

(ii) A form of Selective Door Operation is in place which prevents those doors not adjacent to the platform being unlocked (note 'unlocked' is not the same thing as opening - 'locked' means the passenger door controls are inoperative)

 

Under no circumstances is it permitted for a train with power operated doors to end up in the situation where passenger doors are unlocked without there being a platform alongside.

 

The regulations which mandate all this were drawn up in British Rail days (early 1990s) so it cannot be blamed on privatisation or any recent tightening up of the regulations.

 

 

As for Heritage railways, given they operate trains with manually operated doors then there is no restriction on trains being longer than platforms - however the ORR will expect to see this practice identified as a high risk activity in the railways Safety Management System and will expect the railway to have robust mitigating measures in place to minimise the inherent risks with this method of operation.

Edited October 23, 2018 by phil-b259

[pH]

Last month, I travelled from Ealing Broadway to Didcot on a 'stopper'. Approaching several stations, there was an announcement that not all coaches would be at the platform. If passengers wanted to get off, they should be in the front 'x' coaches. This was followed by an announcement identifying the coach number in the train. (Sounded like the Borg - "six of eight".)

[david.hill64]

If you wish to alight at the mainline station for the Zig-Zag railway in New South Wales, you have to leave by a certain door in a 12 car (I think) train as the platform is that short.

[great central]

If the train is still fitted with manually operated doors (i.e. traditional slam doors) then it is permitted to stop at stations where the platform is shorter than the train. HSTs and charter stock fall into this category.

 

However if the train is fitted with power worked doors then it can only call at stations where:-

 

(i) All passenger doors throughout the train are located adjacent to the platform (thin emergency platform extensions such as the situation at Green Lane described by Beast6606 or the situation at Barbican before the Thameslink Moorgate branch closed count as part of the platform for the purposes of this regulation).

 

Or

 

(ii) A form of Selective Door Operation is in place which prevents those doors not adjacent to the platform being unlocked (note 'unlocked' is not the same thing as opening - 'locked' means the passenger door controls are inoperative)

 

Under no circumstances is it permitted for a train with power operated doors to end up in the situation where passenger doors are unlocked without there being a platform alongside.

 

The regulations which mandate all this were drawn up in British Rail days (early 1990s) so it cannot be blamed on privatisation or any recent tightening up of the regulations.

 

 

As for Heritage railways, given they operate trains with manually operated doors then there is no restriction on trains being longer than platforms - however the ORR will expect to see this practice identified as a high risk activity in the railways Safety Management System and will expect the railway to have robust mitigating measures in place to minimise the inherent risks with this method of operation.

On power operated door stock if no selective door opening it's one door only if the train doesn't fit the platform, usually the very front one. Some years ago while working a Lincoln-Nottingham train on the Christmas market weekend, I had a 5 car set fortunately calling at Newark Castle only which is a 2 car platform. I had to unload a coach and a half through one door, then being a Saturday evening reload another coach full, and including a large group in fancy dress.

[PaulRhB]

Do 'grandfather rights' apply in this instance?

In that if you have a pre-existing station with a short platform, then you may run overlong trains which call at that station.

If there is a new-build station, (built after a specific date) then platforms must be constructed so that the whole of each train must be platformed.

 

cheers

Usually any modifications destroy grandfather rights and when the lengthened the island platforms at Salisbury there was no restriction added. New stations will be built to accommodate expected train lengths but not to cover everything possible.

The only thing is that the Signalman should ensure there is room or advise the driver before arrival. If it’s a normal booked working then it’s down to the crew. With specials we usually check with the train manager via control before it arrives, or now with GSMR it’s easy to send a contact Signaller message before it arrives.

With the island extension Salisbury platform 3 can accommodate 10 car sets but we have to clear the signal before they can detach as it’s tight. On plat 2 it can only fit 9 as there’s a Do Not Alight Here sign on a fence so you must advise the driver if changing the booked 10 car each morning to use it.

Edited October 24, 2018 by PaulRhB

[Zomboid]

On plat 2 it can only fit 9 as there’s a Do Not Alight Here sign on a fence so you must advise the driver if changing the booked 10 car each morning to use it.

OT- Do they actually manage 10 cars at the moment? I don't catch that one, but my train home used to be a 9 car, and that has been 6 more often than I care to remember lately. Sometimes they manage 8. Rumour is that SWR have stopped maintaining their diesel fleet properly so lots of them are broken.

 

Sort of on topic, I believe that SDO is not a grandfather rights thing, it's considered a suitable solution for new arrangements. Certainly when new trains and new longer formations come along it's OK. GA are introducing 3 car 755s which will replace 1 and 2 car trains, and I don't think they're extending platforms at the likes of Berney Arms.

[njee20]

Rush hour trains on the Arun Valley line are 12 coaches, but Ifield, Littlehaven, Christ’s Hospital, Billingshurst, Pulborough, Amberley, Arundel and Ford are all shorter than that (between 6 and 8) Makes for long announcements every bloody day!

Edited October 24, 2018 by njee20

[PaulRhB]

OT- Do they actually manage 10 cars at the moment?

 

 

It has been 9 cars a fair bit recently. Only the 06:45 1L18 and it’s return working 1L19 are currently booked 10 cars between Salisbury and Waterloo.

[Kris]

Do 'grandfather rights' apply in this instance?

In that if you have a pre-existing station with a short platform, then you may run overlong trains which call at that station.

If there is a new-build station, (built after a specific date) then platforms must be constructed so that the whole of each train must be platformed.

 

cheers

 

Ivybridge station was opened in 1994 and has been served by HST's since then. These only have 6 of the 8 coaches platformed.  

[Welly]

HSTs work from Lincoln to Kings Cross and they are too long for platform 3 so only the first 4 or 5 coaches are on the platform.

[KeithHC]

Whitland to Pembroke Dock the Saturday HST services (Pembroke Coast Express) would stop all stations. Most too short for an HST.

 

Keith

[Wickham Green]

Rush hour trains on the Arun Valley line are 12 coaches, but Ifield, Littlehaven, Christ’s Hospital, Billingshurst, Pulborough, Amberley, Arundel and Ford are all shorter than that (between 6 and 8) Makes for long announcements every bloody day!

What makes the announcements longer than necessary is the insistence on detailing exactly how many coaches can be alighted from at each station ...... would be a lot simpler to quote the lowest number - or the lowest number at any of the stations yet to be called at.

[phil-b259]

OT- Do they actually manage 10 cars at the moment? I don't catch that one, but my train home used to be a 9 car, and that has been 6 more often than I care to remember lately. Sometimes they manage 8. Rumour is that SWR have stopped maintaining their diesel fleet properly so lots of them are broken.

 

Sort of on topic, I believe that SDO is not a grandfather rights thing, it's considered a suitable solution for new arrangements. Certainly when new trains and new longer formations come along it's OK. GA are introducing 3 car 755s which will replace 1 and 2 car trains, and I don't think they're extending platforms at the likes of Berney Arms.

 

'Grandfather rights' are disliked by the ORR and certainly cannot be applied to new or modified situations - full stop.

 

Pretty much every new train these days comes with selective door operation so short platforms like Berney Arms will not be an issue for the new GA fleet.

 

The problem at the moment is the BR sprinter fleet lacks SDO so cannot call if it is too long for the platform (unless everyone exists via a single door the Guard has opened locally.

[phil-b259]

Ivybridge station was opened in 1994 and has been served by HST's since then. These only have 6 of the 8 coaches platformed.  

 

 

HSTs work from Lincoln to Kings Cross and they are too long for platform 3 so only the first 4 or 5 coaches are on the platform.

 

HST stock has manually operated doors! - and is thus exempt from the regulation that requires all doors to be adjacent to the platform.

 

When the LNER sets get power operated doors then they will need to have Selective Door Operation fitted too or they will be banned from Lincoln.

 

The same would apply to GWR if their new 'short' sets they are keeping are longer than the platforms at Ivybridge

[rob D2]

Thanks for the gen.

So my RES 47 and Mk1s can stop at my three coach platform.

 

Absolutely amazed this is allowed ( and heartened that it’s not been filtered out by HS )