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Hitler's Holocaust Railway with Chris Tarrant


EddieB
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For more information about the transport of Jews during the Holocaust I recommend the book Holocaust Journey by the late Martin Gilbert (Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1997). In particular, one description of how a train was loaded is utterly horrifying, even in the context of the already dreadful events, and is almost unreadable.

 

Edited, spelling mistake

Edited by caradoc
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I'd assumed it was on later that evening. I did ponder thats an interesting topic, buf I find Tarrent seems really insincere when he's trying to be grave.

Am.I right in thinking there are murky stories such as the Swiss allowing the trains to travel through their borders from Italy at night.

There would be no surprise at this, the Swedish State allowed German troop trains to travel to the Norwegian border when they invaded in April, 1940. The pressure applied on the neighbours of Nazi Germany must have been quite intense, notwithstanding some sympathy for the Nazi cause in those countries. It would appear that Switzerland was used as a financial channel by the Nazis when they robbed the conquered countries of their wealth (such as it was). Nazi Germany was basically bankrupt en-route to war, hence the slave camps, etc., I could go on, but I am going a long way off topic. My apologies for this.

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The question of who committed the holocaust and why is one of the more disturbing questions of history. If looking at Germany there was an effort after the war to make a distinction between the Nazi's and ordinary German people but the truth isn't that simple. There were certainly people who resisted Nazism and assisted the Jews and other victims of oppression, there were others who were enthusiastic supporters who were fully with the program, the majority of people appear to have been in the middle and accepted what the regime did so long as their own lives remained tolerable. Most of those people were probably somewhere on a spectrum varying from very anti-Semitic but with no desire to kill or hurt Jews (just as in our own society there are plenty with unpleasant views but who have no inclination to actually act out the ultimate conclusion of such views) to not at all anti-Semitic however they accepted the regimes various unpleasant facets as a price of order and economic prosperity without complaining much and doing what they were told when necessary. That attitude may be understandable but it is also what allowed the holocaust to happen and it is interesting that the euthanasia program did result in unrest and kick back which caused the Nazi's to suspend it and push it deeper out of sight to avoid scrutiny. Despite the image of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian dictatorship the regime paid close attention to public opinion and sentiment and despite the bombastic propaganda the Nazi regime enjoyed general support and popularity either despite of or because of its politics. The regime never disguised its anti-Semitism and started to remove Jews from the professions almost as soon as taking office with the classification and expropriation policies being open. Which is all a long winded way of saying that the destruction of the Jews didn't happen because of some abstract group of persons within Germany but because it was the policy of the German government, a government which enjoyed popular support and which was very open about its anti-Semitism and which was carried out for the most part by ordinary people. The book "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" by Christopher R. Browning is well worth reading. Browning studied one reserve Police battalion, few of its members were committed Nazi's or even Nazi's at all and their commander was far from being an ardent Nazi or anti-Semite but despite some initial squeamishness the battalion did its work and progressively became de-sensitised. The interesting aspect of the study is that anybody not willing to kill Jews was given the opportunity to opt out and contrary to the excuse often given for these people those who opted out suffered no adverse consequences other than some opprobrium from their colleagues.

If looking beyond Germany is is more varied. For example in Italy until the overthrow of Mussolini in 1943 the Italian Fascist regime indulged in anti-Semitic rhetoric and some behaviour that would be unpleasant on the normal political spectrum but prohibited the sort of expropriation and extermination measures of Germany. Unfortunately that changed when Germany installed a puppet regime after rescuing Mussolini. The Romanian's indulged themselves in an ###### of extermination which shocked even the German's (whose objections were based more on the disorderliness of it all than the actual mass killing of undesirables) yet were far less keen to kill their own Jews. Ditto Hungary which despite a lot of unpleasant rhetoric and measures stopped short of extermination until their government collapsed in 1944. The picture in Western Europe is varied but in certain countries there was undoubtedly collaboration in the final solution which went well beyond minimal co-operation to avoid worse things, and some of these same occupied countries were quite willing to risk German reactions by objecting to other policies.

 

This book should be considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executionershttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0349107866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543837959&sr=8-1&keywords=hitler%27s+willing+executioners

 

When you've read it, you need to work hard to resist adopting the concept of 'collective guilt'. It makes disturbing reading.

 

It covers similar ground to the Christopher Browning study: Police reservists serving behind the Eastern Front were, on the whole, older than front line troops, had more of a stake in society than younger men and tended to be family men.  The instance of Nazi party membership was no higher than in other sectors of society.  Their commanders were concerned at the effects on them of undertaking repeated traumatic mass executions, but no one seems to have questioned the underlying justification for committing them. 

 

Your point about Italy is also well made. My old Director of Studies, Jonathan Steinberg, had studied this, and believed that the Italians paid a good deal of lip service to the Germans' demands concerning actions against the Jews, but dragged their heels.

 

I was interested in what you say about Hungary and Romania in that regard. 

 

The French, on the other had, seem to have been very co-operative.  It was the French police, not the occupying forces, that implemented the rounding up and deportation of the Jews.  See: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Petains-Crime-Complete-Collaboration-Holocaust/dp/1566632498. Though easy for a Brit to say, given that we were never occupied, I have long thought that the extent of resistance in France has been rather overstated and the idea that it liberated itself a downright myth.

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This book should be considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executionershttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0349107866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543837959&sr=8-1&keywords=hitler%27s+willing+executioners

 

When you've read it, you need to work hard to resist adopting the concept of 'collective guilt'. It makes disturbing reading.

 

It covers similar ground to the Christopher Browning study: Police reservists serving behind the Eastern Front were, on the whole, older than front line troops, had more of a stake in society than younger men and tended to be family men.  The instance of Nazi party membership was no higher than in other sectors of society.  Their commanders were concerned at the effects on them of undertaking repeated traumatic mass executions, but no one seems to have questioned the underlying justification for committing them. 

 

Your point about Italy is also well made. My old Director of Studies, Jonathan Steinberg, had studied this, and believed that the Italians paid a good deal of lip service to the Germans' demands concerning actions against the Jews, but dragged their heels.

 

I was interested in what you say about Hungary and Romania in that regard. 

 

The French, on the other had, seem to have been very co-operative.  It was the French police, not the occupying forces, that implemented the rounding up and deportation of the Jews.  See: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Petains-Crime-Complete-Collaboration-Holocaust/dp/1566632498. Though easy for a Brit to say, given that we were never occupied, I have long thought that the extent of resistance in France has been rather overstated and the idea that it liberated itself a downright myth.

Re Post 28:

 

The French, on the other had, seem to have been very co-operative.  It was the French police, not the occupying forces, that implemented the rounding up and deportation of the Jews.  See: https://www.amazon.c...t/dp/1566632498. Though easy for a Brit to say, given that we were never occupied, I have long thought that the extent of resistance in France has been rather overstated and the idea that it liberated itself a downright myth.

 

An observation - the Channel Islands were occupied and there were, from what I remember, deportations as well as the use of slave labour to construct 'defence' installations. The French, apart from not liberating themselves [Remember D-Day],  also supplied labour in the ports and dockyards for the Kriegsmarine, though how free of pressure I have yet to be sure. Perhaps the most generous view of the French Resistance's participation would  be to acknowledge the uprising on the advent of D-Day (we cannot forget a result of this - Ouradour-sur-Glane) and the escape lines throughout the war. In respect of the Escape Lines, there is a very good depiction and telling in a display in a Nissen hut found within East Kirkby Airfield. Detailed account of the internal fight against the Nazis, warts and all, can be found in M.R.D Foot's S.O.E in France part of the HMSO History of the Second World War. There is also an important account of the Communist fight against the Nazis from one Leopold Trepper, leader of the 'Red Orchestra' (Rote Kapelle).

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Though easy for a Brit to say, given that we were never occupied, I have long thought that the extent of resistance in France has been rather overstated and the idea that it liberated itself a downright myth.

 

I read an interesting comment on how Europe treated those who collaborated with the Nazis.

 

Most, if not all, of the countries who ended up occupied by the Nazis quietly forgot about collaboration, apart from the very senior figures like Quisling and Petain who were made examples of. Ordinary low level collaborators seems to have been ignored. The often quoted example is one of the Dutch policemen who arrested Anne Frank, who retired from the police in the early 1980s.  

 

The two European victors of the war (UK and USSR) were never fully occupied, and went down the retributive justice route for their collaborators. 

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I was interested in what you say about Hungary and Romania in that regard. 

 

 

 

On the Romanian's this link is useful:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Odessa_massacre

 

Despite being on Wikipedia it is pretty reliable in this case. The Hungarian army also had an unfortunate reputation (although not on the scale of the Romanian's. By contrast, both countries were much less blood thirsty towards their own Jewish populations (albeit by normal standards both would be considered highly unpleasant).

 

I'd recommend this book:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Destruction-European-Jews-Third/dp/0300095570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543863644&sr=8-1&keywords=raul+hilberg+the+destruction+of+the+european+jews

 

Although not cheap it remains the definitive work IMO and if anybody is genuinely interested in this whole tragic subject I'd rate it as pretty much essential reading.

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It is easy to judge people when we never went through those times ourselves nor know what pressures they were out under. History is written by the survivors and victors, both of which have vested interests.

 

This is not to belittle what happened but just point out that we can't say for definite what happened back then and I feel it's best not to speculate but try to learn from what happened and prevent anything like it happening again. Which I feel was the purpose of the programme...

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In the case of the holocaust and the industrialised mass killing of millions of Jews, handicapped, gypsies etc the usual victor spin worked in the opposite direction to what might be expected. Until the 1960's it was not a major area of study and didn't feature that prominently in post war history. This was basically because cold war politics needed a rapid rehabilitation of Germany in the West and it was mutually convenient for both the former Western Allies and the new Federal Germany to develop the idea of the crimes of the Nazi regime being the work of dedicated Nazi's and the SS in the face of good German's. This led to the myth of the good German army and the bad SS, to be clear the SS was bad but even a cursory study of the army and its generals in the East especially kills the myth of a good army fighting honourably while the SS went about committing mass murder. I think a lot of this can be ascribed to Erich von Manstein and his Western admirers like Liddell-Hart who actively promoted the rehabilitation and washing of the German generals and army (and also promoted the myth that brilliant generals were let down by a carpet gnawing mad man in Hitler). The holocaust became prominent in the 60's, unfortunately at some time in the 70's or 80's it then spawned a holocaust industry.

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Most armies had a bad side, the Allies included, though. What the German army did pales a lot against what the Russian army did, concentrating on one nation whilst ignoring the atrocities of another is wrong. The Russian people were also complicit in similar "crimes" as well, and probably due to very similar pressures put on them by those in charge. As I said it is easy to judge ordinary people when you didn't have to actually live through it.

 

I'd rather we just learn from it to prevent it happening again, though that seems something the Human Race is incapable of doing.

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Most armies had a bad side, the Allies included, though. What the German army did pales a lot against what the Russian army did, concentrating on one nation whilst ignoring the atrocities of another is wrong. The Russian people were also complicit in similar "crimes" as well, and probably due to very similar pressures put on them by those in charge. As I said it is easy to judge ordinary people when you didn't have to actually live through it.

 

I'd rather we just learn from it to prevent it happening again, though that seems something the Human Race is incapable of doing.

My sentiments as well, but as we have watched the Balkans revisited when we sent a toothless NATO force in, nations just don't seem to learn from history. However, for those who wish to learn or remind themselves about the story of the German Army they would do well to read 'The Nemesis of Power - The German Army in Politics 1918-1945', by J.W.Wheeler-Bennett. There is a telling quotation in the frontispiece of this book:

 

The German Nation is sick of principles and doctrines, literary existence and theoretical greatness. What it wants is Power, Power, Power! And whoever gives it power, to him will it give him honour, more honour than he can ever imagine. Julius Froebel, in 1859. Quoted by Heinrich, Ritter von Srbik in Deutsch Einheit, III, p.5.

 

It must be borne in mind that the German General Staff were schooled by such thoughts and acted accordingly. Furthermore, the German General Staff, as can be seen in Wheeler-Bennett's tome, thought they could use Herr Hitler for their own ends, but they were naive and found that they were the tool wielded by the former Corporal and his Gangster colleagues.

 

I must say that I find myself way off track here and somewhat surprised at the length and breadth of the discussion, as well as the general forbearance of readers herein.

Edited by Francis deWeck
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I watched it and came away a little harrowed but well informed.

It made my archive of documentaries.

 

I can't really comment on who said what or who is guilty of what as the amount of people left who were active during that time; in my opinion it's not worth trying to drag them through the courts now.

 

What I feel bad about is the modern Germany kids of today.

The war was nothing they could control or help but as a nation, they're still having to say "sorry".

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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What I feel bad about is the modern Germany kids of today.

The war was nothing they could control or help but as a nation, they're still having to say "sorry".

 

Same applies to many other countries, UK included... For instance slavery has a long history going back thousands of years. How far do you go back? Some things are best left be and we move on...

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Most armies had a bad side, the Allies included, though. What the German army did pales a lot against what the Russian army did, concentrating on one nation whilst ignoring the atrocities of another is wrong. The Russian people were also complicit in similar "crimes" as well, and probably due to very similar pressures put on them by those in charge. As I said it is easy to judge ordinary people when you didn't have to actually live through it.

 

I'd rather we just learn from it to prevent it happening again, though that seems something the Human Race is incapable of doing.

 

All armies committed "hot" war crimes it is true. However not even the Soviet army committed the sort of calculated "cold" extermination of selected groups on a scale which was normal in the German occupied USSR and Poland. There is a fundamental difference between combat troops losing control in the heat (or immediate aftermath) of battle and troops executing state policy to exterminate people. The Soviet Union clearly did have a history of mass murder but even the Soviet Union didn't really see the sort of industrialised extermination executed by Germany.

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Try telling that to the Ukranians... Stalin's policies were very similar to Hitlers... Then there's Mao... All of the things those three have done would involve the use of the "man in the street" to be able to carry out their wishes. In all three cases the State ruled its people by fear. That is why I do not feel that we can differentiate between the atrocities of the three and also why I will not judge the ordinary man in the street without knowing their personal circumstances. I've said enough, though, whilst it is important to know what was done I feel to apportion blame to a signalman or driver of one of those trains (or one of Stalin's gulag trains) is wrong unless we have the full story and we never will. So all we can do is try to stop a repeat, which we are not very good at. No matter how well we try to understand things it seems to make no difference, we still repeat our mistakes.

Edited by Hobby
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Try telling that to the Ukranians... Stalin's policies were very similar to Hitlers... Then there's Mao... All of the things those three have done would involve the use of the "man in the street" to be able to carry out their wishes. In all three cases the State ruled its people by fear. That is why I do not feel that we can differentiate between the atrocities of the three and also why I will not judge the ordinary man in the street without knowing their personal circumstances. I've said enough, though, whilst it is important to know what was done I feel to apportion blame to a signalman or driver of one of those trains (or one of Stalin's gulag trains) is wrong unless we have the full story and we never will. So all we can do is try to stop a repeat, which we are not very good at. No matter how well we try to understand things it seems to make no difference, we still repeat our mistakes.

 

I haven't seen anybody try to defend Stalin or Mao here, however the state planned, industrialised mass murder of complete groups was something particular to Germany. And the Nazi party did not rule Germany by fear, it enjoyed widespread support almost to the very end in spite of (or because of) its policies. Those policies included institutionalised anti-Semitism amongst other hate policies. Goldhagen's book was called "Hitler's Willing Executioners" for a reason. I don't actually agree with large parts of Goldhagen's book but almost all the historians on the subject agree that the perpetrators needed little or no coercion to carry out their own roles in the holocaust and that there was actually a large degree of forebearance for those who did not want to participate. If you remove the link between ordinary people and great crimes (something clearly not unique to the holocaust) then you completely fail to learn the principle lesson of such tragedies.

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I think that there is a strong (and understandable) human need to believe that we, our family, friends and colleagues (ie "ordinary people") could not willingly perpetrate or participate in atrocities. Unfortunately both history and psychological research has shown that enough of probably can that it is difficult to confine blame, when it does happen, to a handful of empty-eyed psychopaths.

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I think that there is a strong (and understandable) human need to believe that we, our family, friends and colleagues (ie "ordinary people") could not willingly perpetrate or participate in atrocities. Unfortunately both history and psychological research has shown that enough of probably can that it is difficult to confine blame, when it does happen, to a handful of empty-eyed psychopaths.

 

It is a demonstrable fact that under the right circumstances ordinary people can do extraordinary things. Usually people like to think of the many positive examples of this but it is also true that ordinary people are also capable of doing extraordinarily bad things under the right circumstances for such behaviours. We have examples in recent history, the Rwandan genocide was for the most part carried out by ordinary Rwandan's. After the 1997 Asia financial crash ordinary Indonesian's were murdering ethnic Chinese Indonesian's in mob riots. The former Yugoslavia broke down into ethnic tribalism with dreadful consequences. To name just three.  

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Eric Voegelin's 'Hitler and the Germans' is worth a read. It explains, amongst other things, the various coping mechanisms the Germans collectively  produced in order to deal with their previous support for the Nazi regime. It's years since I read it, but I remember that one of them was 'Hitler somehow bewitched us' or similar, as if he was a Pied Piper who magically lead them all astray. 

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I have just been watching PBS America and there is currently a programme on Eugenics in the USA in the 1930’s that inspired Nazi Germany !

 

At least part of German Eugenics programme seems to have been driven by the medical profession, rather than the Nazis. Supposedly the forced sterilizations programme was reigned back when the doctors wanted to start sterilizing people in the 40-60 IQ range, and somebody in the SS checked what percentage of the population that covered (and the impact it would have on the birth rate). 

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All armies committed "hot" war crimes it is true. However not even the Soviet army committed the sort of calculated "cold" extermination of selected groups on a scale which was normal in the German occupied USSR and Poland. There is a fundamental difference between combat troops losing control in the heat (or immediate aftermath) of battle and troops executing state policy to exterminate people. The Soviet Union clearly did have a history of mass murder but even the Soviet Union didn't really see the sort of industrialised extermination executed by Germany.

While there is a lot of truth in what you say, how "industrialised" do you have to be in order to exterminate some 20 million of your own citizens (Stalin)? Versus the 6 million exterminated by the Nazis.

Either the Soviets were using enormous numbers of people (men and women) to achieve such numbers OR they did it on an "industrial" scale.

 

I have to take issue with your assertion that the Nazi's behaved the way they did with the knowledge of and willing co-operation & participation of the "ordinary German".

From 1933 until 1945, Germany was literally, the ultimate police state.

People "knew" they had to co-operate or disappear and those very brave few who actively opposed the Nazis prior to 1933 and afterwards, rarely lived to tell the tale. OR they went deep underground and on the surface, made no waves.

 

It is very, very easy to sit here in this modern world in a free country to criticise the actions of those in the past but if you compare their situation with say, an "ordinary North Korean" today - I think you will get a better comparison with what it was like in the past.

Don't forget that although Hitler did win the election in 1933, he very quickly cemented his power by removing Hindenburg, making himself "fuhrer" and making all other political parties illegal.

Control of the entire state apparatus and economy was quick and brutal so if you didn't conform, you were out.

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