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EddieB

Hitler's Holocaust Railway with Chris Tarrant

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Please - don't be naive.

"such men" as your older German's doing killings - yes, they should have known better but they also knew that had they resisted, not only would they get a bullet but their family would get executed too - and, such men would mainly have had families, wives, children, maybe adult offspring with children of their own. Thereby making them less capable of resisting not more.

That is why I draw the comparison between North Korea and Nazi Germany;

Both states are completely totalitarian police states with very well developed spy networks.

Both states will make you disappear should you go against the will of the political apparatus.

Both states had/have total control over the population. 

 

It may well be that both states populations "know" what is going on, through "Chinese whispers" and the like but their ability to resist is zero.

 

Having visited totalitarian states# (Yugoslavia in 1977, Portugal after during a military coup, Morocco many times) I maintain that in a situation where you live in fear - you will do as you are directed to because if you do not, you will disappear, horribly.

 

#None of which were particularly evil, it has to be said but the atmosphere of fear is still all pervading.

Just to reiterate my point about resisting the Nazi's.

Here are a couple of pages that illustrate how dangerous it was to attempt to resist the regime;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism

 

Approximately 77,000* Germans were killed for attempting to resist so although the German populace was fully aware of the "Jewish Problem" and the state's persecution of the Jews, I maintain that few Germans knew exactly what was happening to them and even fewer could do anything about it.

"Turning a blind eye" was a better recipe for survival than protesting something - this continues to be the case today. It could even be that people became 'bored' of the subject.

 

*Considerably less than the 360,000 members of the German Communist party in 1932. 

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On 06/12/2018 at 13:49, adb968008 said:

 

What worries me more, is the UK seems to be heading in a more extremist non-tolerant direction, not by government policy but by the populist sentiment, which is the same route which those with despotic desires use to ferment and use to ascend, circumventing the establishment and exploiting it to gain power throughout history, and people want it, until they realise, by which time its too late. Fortunately we have the reds, blues and yellows with time served limits to keep it in check.

That doesnt alter the publics mentality and behaviour... a culture of giving benefits then later taking them away does nothing to quell jealousy and anger, which eventually turns to hate and blame... all they lack is a focal point and a critical mass.

 

People dont realise how extremist a country is until its too late, unless your outside that country looking in and see whats happening.

Funny you should say this!

I thought of this thread again when I read the following interesting link;

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2019/july/feelings-of-inertia-and-dread?utm_source=LRB+blog+email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20190813+blog&utm_content=ukrw_nonsubs_blog

 

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I don't think it's inertia and dread - rather, it's resignation and helplessness.  One of the troubles with democracy (not that we actually have democracy in this country) is that it's a marvellous system for  the majority, but absolutely useless for the minority.

 

DT

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How does a large proportion of the populace of a “decent, law-abiding country” turn into a bunch of feral beasts that is content to murder those who are arbitrarily defined as “sub-human”, or “ the enemy within”?

 

Gradual, and ever-so-subtle, redrawing of the boundaries between what is acceptable and what is not, over time.

 

Its like boiling-frog-syndrome, so that what is considered “normal” is gradually, imperceptibly, migrating ...... what attracted opprobrium yesterday attracts only muted criticism today, and will go unremarked tomorrow.

 

And, highly articulate populist politicians who are so minded can push the process along quite niftily, by forever pushing the boundaries of outrageousness, either with deliberate intent, or simply because they are like the brat who disrupts class and revels  in a bad-boy image and the attention that goes with it.

 

If only 2% of the population starts out as feral beasts by nature, and another 2% has the appetite but lacks the courage, and another 2% doesn’t have the appetite, but isn’t much bugged if others do, and another 2% is simply away with the fairies and can’t see what’s going on in front of them, that’s 8% before any slide to starts ......... and i’d wager that the real percentages are closer to 10% in each case.

 

What I’m saying is that the slide to isn’t something completely exceptional, rather it’s something so unexceptional that it has to be actively guarded against.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

How does a large proportion of the populace of a “decent, law-abiding country” turn into a bunch of feral beasts that is content to murder those who are arbitrarily defined as “sub-human”, or “ the enemy within”?

 

Gradual, and ever-so-subtle, redrawing of the boundaries between what is acceptable and what is not, over time

There is a tipping point though.

the trigger is the establishment of a focal point.

 

in Nazi Germany the rise to power was populistic, much as the UK has become, celebration, satisfaction, elation.. then came the focal point, Jews, at which point the energy created in the rise to power was used to overwhelm a minority, and it lead to some to question the cause in silence & fear, where the others channeled energy into aggression at the focal point.

 

we saw this in 2016 post Brexit result, in the immediate weeks following the result hate crimes against Eastern Europeans grew considerably and included some murders, whilst many of the populace became fearful and thousands have since left the country. In the after math of 2016 minorities now routinely carry knives resulting in the crime wave we now have. Had there been a “hitler” in power in 2016 looking the other way and channeling that energy, UK would have mimicked crystalnacht quite easily..., the ingredients were there from the riots of 2011.

 

The kettle is still simmering, the UK hasn't passed this yet.

 

 

Edited by adb968008

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I would agree that there are some similarities in personality about today, people who use populism as a means to generate poor behaviour towards others and demonise the opposition.  Worryingly, the use language that should be directed at themselves at the opposition, calling the opposition what the populists are is shifting opinion away from themselves as the bad actors.  It's propaganda and it's made so easy by social media now, it's getting harder to know the truth.

 

I noted recent press where a certain person is criticising the Royal Family, they are not above criticism but I've noted he hasn't talked this way in the UK, saving it for our cousins in a republic who may be more appreciative of his comments.  Makes me worry that some people are now thinking along the lines of the American model of rule, do away with the Monarchy and Parliament replacing with a populist president and a house of elected representatives.  

 

I am not sure that what people were voting for in 2016 on either side of the vote.

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Posted (edited)

I doubt the UK has a momentum to change government organisation.

 

Hitler remember wanted absolute power. We might have “leaders”, left, right, or even trying to get in government, with aspirations of being PM, leadership and driving change, but Ive not sensed one seeking divine right, no matter how extreme their visions.

 

We've not had a leader in modern times who sought to become un-oust able, even if they might think they can override government with their visions..they either succeed or quit/forced out... generally they go on their own two feet having been broken down to the point of having had enough.

 

Thats probably one the bigger differences.

its the peoples mindsets though that are the issue... theres a lot of unhappy people out there, the focal point could be a sign of weakness in the leadership that sets them off uncontrollably... thats whats happening in Hong Kong right now... at which point theres only 2 outcomes... escalation or  descalation, by either side.

In HK employment is being squeezed due to the trade dispute between China and US, creating Anger, the focal point is the extradition law, dispute with China, which is by all accounts nebulous now. Germany was the same.. Hunger, inflation and the crash of 1929 that fueled it. 

Here in the UK were missing a vital ingredient.. Hunger, the working population is working, they might want more, but what they have could be a lot worse, of course that can change, and the focal point is waiting in the frame.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

How does a large proportion of the populace of a “decent, law-abiding country” turn into a bunch of feral beasts that is content to murder those who are arbitrarily defined as “sub-human”, or “ the enemy within”?

 

 

My grannie ,who lost most of her family via  a V2 , said the best died in the trenches on both sides.Few good  ones left to lead  . For my own part the Germans wanted glory and and empire and the Jews were the price  they were happy to pay .Then it all went wrong ..By invading east Hitler inherited millions of Jews instead  a few hundred thousand in Germany.Anyone sensible would have  recruited them to the eastern crusade....... and won .

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Posted (edited)

Frisco

 

my point wasn’t that this is a “German Thing”, but that it is a human-race thing ...... that, collectively, we have the capacity to go “off the dial”, and have a very solid track record of doing so.

 

Remaining civilised takes effort, because the beast within is ever-ready to take over ........ it wants to slip the leash and go on the rampage, blaming someone else for our woes, and tearing them limb-from-limb in punishment.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Frisco

 

my point wasn’t that this is a “German Thing”, but that it is a human-race thing ...... that, collectively, we have the capacity to go “off the dial”, and have a very solid track record of doing so.

 

Kevin

Its more than the human race, its life itself..

 

Quote

It is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able to adapt to and to adjust best to the changing environment in which it finds itself

For better or worse...

 

similarly from the same man...

Quote

In the long history of humankind (and animal kind, too) those who learned to collaborate and improvise most effectively have prevailed.

 

Humans tend to resist first, that is not adapting or improvising, .

 

Take Brexit, if there was more Collaboration, Improvisation there may be less resistance more adaption to change... on all sides. Ive never heard any collaboration on why the result was how it was, nor any collaboration on how to resolve it both in the UK or between the UK and EU... just conflict, though the EU itself internally has collaborated effectively, resulting in the deal that is favourable to itself, it remains to be seen if they have improvised sufficiently for its people to accept if that deal is ultimately rejected.

 

As is stands, its inevitable that escalation will occur to find a winner and a loser, both in the EU and in the UK, as well as between the EU and UK, whether it remains purely economic or if that results in civil disobedience, and how much it is tolerated (or if leadership is strong enough to manage it) has yet to be seen. unfortunately it might be that both sides encourage domestic civil issues as well as economic on to each other as means of negotiating leverage... the Interail dispute was a perfect example of that.

Edited by adb968008
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“Ive never hard any collaboration on why the result was how it was, nor any collaboration on how to resolve it, both in the EU, UK or between them... just conflict.”

 

Indeed. The general absence of search for root cause, and ignoring root cause where there is evidence, has been stunning.

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My concern is that all this conflict is designed, Brexit was orchestrated to create chaos into which a bad actor can rise as the saviour - those in power at the moment may be puppets in a long game.

 

If the warnings of what is to come is we leave with no deal are correct (and I don't know if they are) then we could be heading for a depression, the existing party structure may not recover from the past 4 years - a single vote on staying in/out of the European Union has created divisions in the two main parties of a two party state creating fracture and stagnation of political will.

 

Is it surprising that the people driving most of the leaver debate are rich money people outside of the political norms, painting themselves as saviours from the evil empire of the EU who have taken our industry.

 

What is going on in America, rich people telling the poor people it's not their fault their poor, it's those evil foreigners.

 

Why is it that it is always the very rich who tell us why we are poor and that they are the solution when we all know that all the rich want to do is get richer.

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As far as I can tell there's very little racism in British politics, outside of the looney fringes.

 

The actual British far right is tiny, and (lacking the brains to come up with their own conspiracy theories) is currently in bed with their European chums and buying in to their grand racist theories of an Islamic plot to destroy European civilisation.  Most of their activists are football hooligans who need somebody to punch, now that they've been banned from attending football matches.  UKIP flirted with these people, and their support evaporated. 

 

The far left's problem is a weird all-consuming obsession with Palestine and Israel that heads in to anti-Semitism. The only reason it's become such an issue for the Labour party is that the party leadership lack the basic competence needed to deal with the problem firmly. Anyone half decent would have had the tiny number of offenders suspended, investigated and expelled at the first reports of dodgy Facebook posts. But instead they've decided (as these people on the fringes of politics always do with criticism and negative publicity) that the whole thing is a massive conspiracy against them by their enemies, and dug in making the problem a hundred times worse. 

 

Everything else just seems to be down to the poor level of political debate at the moment, where it's easier to accuse opponents of being racist, corrupt, extremists, and/or in the pay of sinister foreign powers, than it is to understand their point of view and engage in a proper debate.  That's not necessarily down to Brexit - I'd say it's more due to politics being slowly reduced to social media posts and quick TV soundbites that strip out all of the important detail, than anything else.  

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At the risk of trivialising the most serious of topics, it does say something that a thread with the title that this one has has suddenly morphed to be about Brexit ...... it’s supposed to work the other way round.

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1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

At the risk of trivialising the most serious of topics, it does say something that a thread with the title that this one has has suddenly morphed to be about Brexit ...... it’s supposed to work the other way round.

From my perspective it was more about highlighting how the cult of individual worship is only ever a step away, stir up fear, mix in hate and hey presto.

 

Humans never learn because the mechanics of such actions are subtle in the beginning, we think we can't be hoodwinked again but it happens, the world is not free from Dictators in 2019 any more so than it was in 1933 - and some of them have nuclear powered missiles now.

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Humans never learn because the mechanics of such actions are subtle in the beginning, we think we can't be hoodwinked again but it happens, the world is not free from Dictators in 2019 any more so than it was in 1933...

 

I agree, but arguably the more, the most important point is that "we" tend to believe that, whatever the calendar date, it couldn't, or can't happen "here".

 

If so, then more fool us.

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4 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The far left's problem is a weird all-consuming obsession with Palestine and Israel that heads in to anti-Semitism...............they've decided (as these people on the fringes of politics always do with criticism and negative publicity) that the whole thing is a massive conspiracy against them by their enemies, and dug in making the problem a hundred times worse. 

 

But isn't it just what that is?  I've yet to see any evidence whatever of any degree of anti-semitism in the Labour Party - plenty of criticism of Israel certainly, but very little against Jews per se.  Certainly it pales into insignificance compared to Islamaphobia in the Tory Party, but strangely we never hear much about that.  I wonder why?

 

DT

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The movie "Last Train to Auschwitz",  while it deals with horrific circumstances,  does show in detail the treatment handed out to deportees as they travel to the death camp.  Particularly of note is the interaction between the Nazis and the Jews, between the Jews and the railway workers on the journey and lastly the human interactions amongst the deportees and how they react to the circumstances that they are in.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Torper said:

 

But isn't it just what that is?  I've yet to see any evidence whatever of any degree of anti-semitism in the Labour Party - plenty of criticism of Israel certainly, but very little against Jews per se.  Certainly it pales into insignificance compared to Islamaphobia in the Tory Party, but strangely we never hear much about that.  I wonder why?

 

DT

 

Oh, and the other problem is that they deflect the accusations with counter accusations against their rivals.....

 

There's literally a few tens of people holding dodgy views in a Labour party of 100,000+ and it's beyond the ability of the Labour NEC to discipline them properly. This whole thing would have been put to bed in a couple of days if they were vaguely competent. 

Edited by pete_mcfarlane
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10 hours ago, Torper said:

 

But isn't it just what that is?  I've yet to see any evidence whatever of any degree of anti-semitism in the Labour Party - plenty of criticism of Israel certainly, but very little against Jews per se. 

Why would they show you evidence of what they are experiencing?

I can only go on what I see.

I visit friends in East Finchley. They are fairly Orthodox at home but quite Liberal when we go out to a restaurant or when they visit my house.

When I first went there some years ago I was surprised to see Labour Party election material in almost every window. In an estate where houses start at around £1.5m I at first found this strange. Then the reason sunk in.

At the last local election I saw not one poster.

These people on-block must have some evidence as to why they have all quit.

I don't do politics so I have not asked them for an explanation.

It would seem that they have good reasons to think that the Labour Party has not just deserted them but is actively against them.

 

For obvious reasons I am not going to get involved in a thread on German history but now that it has gone way beyond that I feel a need to chip in.

Let us get back on topic so I can continue to enjoy it.

Bernard 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Why would they show you evidence of what they are experiencing?

I can only go on what I see.

I visit friends in East Finchley. They are fairly Orthodox at home but quite Liberal when we go out to a restaurant or when they visit my house.

When I first went there some years ago I was surprised to see Labour Party election material in almost every window. In an estate where houses start at around £1.5m I at first found this strange. Then the reason sunk in.

At the last local election I saw not one poster.

These people on-block must have some evidence as to why they have all quit.

I don't do politics so I have not asked them for an explanation.

It would seem that they have good reasons to think that the Labour Party has not just deserted them but is actively against them.

 

For obvious reasons I am not going to get involved in a thread on German history but now that it has gone way beyond that I feel a need to chip in.

Let us get back on topic so I can continue to enjoy it.

Bernard 

 

 

But have they experienced "anti-semitism" (not really the right word for anti-Jewish) in the Labour Party or have they believed what certain parts of the rightwing press have been saying but for which there seems to be remarkably little evidence.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

I agree, but arguably the more, the most important point is that "we" tend to believe that, whatever the calendar date, it couldn't, or can't happen "here".

 

If so, then more fool us.

 

A few years ago there was one of those press rows when a German politician made a comment about extremism in the UK. A few days later a question was asked on (I think) Question Time. One of the audience, a well spoken English women, gave a harangue about how the Germans didn't have any right to criticise us given their record and how Britain was the oldest democracy etc and it couldn't happen here. I remember thinking how dangerous and complacent that attitude was, because if you want to know about a danger then the people to ask are those who have had experience of it not those who think they are magically immune to it.

 

11 hours ago, Torper said:

 

But isn't it just what that is?  I've yet to see any evidence whatever of any degree of anti-semitism in the Labour Party - plenty of criticism of Israel certainly, but very little against Jews per se.  Certainly it pales into insignificance compared to Islamaphobia in the Tory Party, but strangely we never hear much about that.  I wonder why?

 

DT

That, I think, is down to who owns the press. We hear a lot about a free press, but too many people seem to think that it is only about preventing Government from interfering with what is published and refuse to consider censorship by the owners. That can be negated if the owners have varying view points, but today it seems most the press barons have identical views.

 

While the accusation of anti-semitism is justified in many cases (I'm not just referring to the Labour party), I would agree there are factions who use the cry of anti-semetism to shut down any criticism of Israel even when it is nothing to do with religion, no state should be immune from justifiable criticism.

Edited by JeremyC
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1 hour ago, JeremyC said:

While the accusation of anti-semitism is justified in many cases (I'm not just referring to the Labour party), I would agree there are factions who use the cry of anti-semetism to shut down any criticism of Israel even when it is nothing to do with religion, no state should be immune from justifiable criticism.

THANK YOU!!

If you look and see what is actually happening in the west bank, people (Arabs) being murdered for simply staging a peacefull, unarmed protest at having virtually ALL human rights and needs denied to them - them you can see why such as the leadership of the labour party is very open at speaking out about Israeli policy here.

Just because Jews suffered during WW2 is no excuse for present-day Israeli behaviour.

 

If you wish to mark me down as "anti-semite" for making the above statement, so be it, however, I prefer to believe in fairness and equality for all. If one people are to be marked down for abusive treatment and another people are allowed to get away with murder, that is a very unjust world and to be criticised for speaking up about it?

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This thread is going to get locked shortly, I can feel it coming.

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