The end of model-making?

[tomparryharry]

I had a artery blockage removed, and a stent installed 2 years ago. No invasive surgery, and all done within an hour. They saved my life, and I can't express enough to the people who saved me. If this is the future of technology, count me in.

[Mallard60022]

If a tiny bird like a Firecrest can build its' amazing nest and the Blackbird that built its' superb nest in out hedge this year, incorporating all sorts of scratch building materials, that was as solid as something made from synthetic materials, can do what it does, then yes, the College needs to have a more careful look  (as previously suggested), at their intake. This may identify the 'Pigeons' among the flock of applicants. They could do some practical tests and then proceed as normal. Humans, as demonstrated here, generally have the genetic make up to learn, build and create.

This article is as described in many posts, slow news fill in.

Phil (in)

 

P.S. I am am glad that Dental Students are still proving their ability...............

[Clive Mortimore]

There will always be people who want to learn skills from the past. I have learnt quite a few things (I can't call all of them skills) taking part in our hobby of model railways. I think there are changes to how we model but we will still be modelling and learning skills.

 

There will always be people who have to learn skills through the job they do. David mentioned filming a surgeon who replanted a hand. As I nurse I worked on a plastic surgery hand injury ward and would regularly look after people who had a finger replanted. My job related learnt skill was observing the replanted finger and knowing what action to take and when, including getting the timing right for leaching the finger, an ancient skill.

 

Both my children went to the same schools, the eldest (when she puts her mind to it) is very clever with practical things. The youngest finds frying an egg a drama but you should see how he controls a football. Both are very computer literate, skills needed for many of today's workplaces.

 

I don't disagree with the surgeon in the link's view that we should be teaching our youngsters more practical skills, even if decorating their gaming room is the only time they use them. When I clinked on the link there was another link to a feature where another surgeon was saying "Video games made me a better surgeon".

 

 

[Guius]

I think it is hardwired into human genes that people want to feel better than younger generations, not that I'm a cynic or anything. The media stories bemoaning younger people and telling us the world has gone to hell in a hang basket because it isn't like it was in the old days is one of those perennial stories for the media which always seems to be well received by its target audience. Not that I'm saying all change is good or that I don't personally regret some changes, but equally I see an awful lot of very positive changes and I tend to see a lot more positives than negatives in the youngsters I see and know.

If memory serves me right, there is some Pompeian graffiti along the lines off " young people are so disrespectful" and "what is the world coming to when the young act so frivolously"

So it has always been thus.

 

Guy

[Reorte]

If memory serves me right, there is some Pompeian graffiti along the lines off " young people are so disrespectful" and "what is the world coming to when the young act so frivolously"

So it has always been thus.

Doesn't mean that it can't be true eventually. Not that I think there's much sign of it at present, there are aspects of youth today that I don't think much of but I don't see much sign that their general attitude is greatly different than it ever was. If anything the stereotypical image of groups of feral youths running around causing havoc has died down a bit.

[brianusa]

Model making of all sorts has been for the critics.  My Dad was a sports fan, I was not, yet he provided me with Hornby trains from MO to Dublo.  My Mother provided me with Meccano and Dinky Toys out of the housekeeping, so I was obviously destined for indoor activities.  My Dad did try; he took me to Home Park to see Argyle but all I noticed were some boys flying gliders which was the end of my football experience.  But as the school sports ground as at Marsh Mills near Tavvy Junction, instead of football or cricket, it was an opportunity to hide away and watch the trains. 

         Model making in those days was not as common as it was later and indeed today, we are possibly at the zenith of the art.  But the manufacturers have upped the ante and produce such admirable models that many must wonder, what's the point.  That is, unless one is so good at it that the pleasure it brings is the attraction.  If so, then long may the hobby continue but as tempus fugits and we succumb to aches and twinges and can't see the little bits, it is then we go off to the train shop.

         I have travelled the whole ten yards in layouts from N, OO, LGB, and settled on tinplate.  Almost foolproof, big enough so I can see it all and gives the same pleasure as my first experience in MO years ago.

 

Brian.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I hate to disagree with a prominent top surgeon in one of the UK's leading teaching hospitals, but I think that his accusations are a little premature with regards to his trainees.

 

In general, the youngest you can qualify as a doctor in the UK is 23. As a foundation doctor (first two years after qualifying) you will be allowed/expected to assist in surgery if a more senior doctor were not available, but unless you are very keen and have either a very understanding team or a very quiet ward to work on, you would not be spending much time in operating theatres and even then, it would probably only be for a maximum of 8 months throughout a 2 year period. The youngest surgical trainees therefore are 25.

 

I am 27, and feel that whilst my generation is now heavily reliant on computers and social media, we grew up in the 90s and early 00s with Windows 95, dial up internet, Nokia 3310s and MS Dos - we're not the generation that are being brought up on tablets and smartphones. I had a patient's relative recently tell me that the local football team had folded because the younger teenagers would much rather stay in an play fortnite. That wasn't exactly my experience growing up! To get into medical school you have to show some kind of semblance of being a well rounded individual, with sports and musical instruments at the forefront. I'm no artist (in fact, I am terrible), but I at least have the dexterity to play trumpet to a high level and a passable level of guitar.

 

So, in short, whilst I think that this is possibly a problem for the future that needs acting upon now, I'm not sure its one that would have affected my generation.

 

I would suggest that the reason his trainees aren't as good at tying surgical knots would be that there is less time for training in the NHS with the service provision side of the job becoming increasingly stretched. Teaching sessions are often cancelled, whilst 'on call' for a junior doctor rarely means just attending to emergencies, so there is little down time to practice skills or join your seniors in theatre. Budding surgeons are told to practice on split bananas, grapes and oranges, but I can't imagine that theatre staff are particularly keen to let trainees take take kit to practice with as budgets get tighter. I have spent a lot of time in theatre during my surgical rotations but only almost exclusively in emergency cases where the stakes were too high to let the junior take the lead.

 

I must admit that my modelling 'skills' are rather ham fisted, but this is more because my weekends were spent playing sport, rather than because I spent all my time on social media.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Torn-on-the-platform

[StevieD71]

I'm glad the team who did my knee last week had someone who could sew...

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I'm glad the team who did my knee last week had someone who could sew...

 

As am I! Looks to be a good job. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

 

Don't let the article worry you though - surgeons are often rather impatient types and are probably more annoyed at the slow and methodical approach of their trainees, rather than the poor quality of their work - the outcome will be just as good, but maybe took a little longer. I currently work in A&E and regularly stitch up simple wounds (similar technique as used in theatre, I have on occasion been allowed to close surgical wounds too, under supervision) - I take my time to make sure I have done a good job. We take pride in our work 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Torn-on-the-platform

[Mallard60022]

I hate to disagree with a prominent top surgeon in one of the UK's leading teaching hospitals, but I think that his accusations are a little premature with regards to his trainees.

 

In general, the youngest you can qualify as a doctor in the UK is 23. As a foundation doctor (first two years after qualifying) you will be allowed/expected to assist in surgery if a more senior doctor were not available, but unless you are very keen and have either a very understanding team or a very quiet ward to work on, you would not be spending much time in operating theatres and even then, it would probably only be for a maximum of 8 months throughout a 2 year period. The youngest surgical trainees therefore are 25.

 

I am 27, and feel that whilst my generation is now heavily reliant on computers and social media, we grew up in the 90s and early 00s with Windows 95, dial up internet, Nokia 3310s and MS Dos - we're not the generation that are being brought up on tablets and smartphones. I had a patient's relative recently tell me that the local football team had folded because the younger teenagers would much rather stay in an play fortnite. That wasn't exactly my experience growing up! To get into medical school you have to show some kind of semblance of being a well rounded individual, with sports and musical instruments at the forefront. I'm no artist (in fact, I am terrible), but I at least have the dexterity to play trumpet to a high level and a passable level of guitar.

 

So, in short, whilst I think that this is possibly a problem for the future that needs acting upon now, I'm not sure its one that would have affected my generation.

 

I would suggest that the reason his trainees aren't as good at tying surgical knots would be that there is less time for training in the NHS with the service provision side of the job becoming increasingly stretched. Teaching sessions are often cancelled, whilst 'on call' for a junior doctor rarely means just attending to emergencies, so there is little down time to practice skills or join your seniors in theatre. Budding surgeons are told to practice on split bananas, grapes and oranges, but I can't imagine that theatre staff are particularly keen to let trainees take take kit to practice with as budgets get tighter. I have spent a lot of time in theatre during my surgical rotations but only almost exclusively in emergency cases where the stakes were too high to let the junior take the lead.

 

I must admit that my modelling 'skills' are rather ham fisted, but this is more because my weekends were spent playing sport, rather than because I spent all my time on social media.

From the horse's mouth so to speak. (Apologies Torn; Thoroughbred I am sure).

I shall refrain from further posts and thank you for your reassurance.

Finally, I think Orthopedics (Fracture Clinic) is OK due to the high use of Mod Roc....oh, hang on, should that be Scenics in modelling is OK due to the high use of Mod Roc? 

P. L. Astercastpot

[jjb1970]

In an old job I was an industrial supervisor for MEng and MSc students at a certain university, I was always very pleased and impressed with the knowledge, work ethic and attitude to life of the students I had, it was a far cry from the usual image of young people peddled by the media.

 

I think it is one of those universal truisms that when people are young they see themselves as knowing the answers to all things, blaming the old for everything wrong in the world (in a sense there is some truth in that, although of course it works for the good stuff as well) and thinking people had it easy in the old days, and as people get old the world goes to hell in a hang basket, youth is terrible and it was all better in the old days. It's a naturally evolutionary path of human development.

 

If I have no truck for the idea that it was all better in the old days, the youth of today are terrible blah blah blah I'll also say I've had some quite sharp conversations with younger people when told my generation (I'm only 48, it's not that old....) had it easy. I grew up at a time when many British towns became wastelands of post industrial devastation, there was a regular slot on the TV news with jobs lost and jobs created (with jobs lost invariably massively outnumbering those created) and I even had teachers telling me that school was a waste of time as there was nothing to do after school (an absolutely appalling attitude, shame on them, some of their pupils actually listened to that nonsense).

 

The idea of selectively looking at certain elements of times past to pretend that they were better is not limited to any generation. Personally I think it'd be deeply worrying if young people weren't cocky know it alls with a desire to change the world, I also think it'd be dangerous if there weren't sceptical older voices of experience pointing out some of the flaws in those exciting ideas.

[PatB]

In an old job I was an industrial supervisor for MEng and MSc students at a certain university, I was always very pleased and impressed with the knowledge, work ethic and attitude to life of the students I had, it was a far cry from the usual image of young people peddled by the media.

 

I think it is one of those universal truisms that when people are young they see themselves as knowing the answers to all things, blaming the old for everything wrong in the world (in a sense there is some truth in that, although of course it works for the good stuff as well) and thinking people had it easy in the old days, and as people get old the world goes to hell in a hang basket, youth is terrible and it was all better in the old days. It's a naturally evolutionary path of human development.

 

If I have no truck for the idea that it was all better in the old days, the youth of today are terrible blah blah blah I'll also say I've had some quite sharp conversations with younger people when told my generation (I'm only 48, it's not that old....) had it easy. I grew up at a time when many British towns became wastelands of post industrial devastation, there was a regular slot on the TV news with jobs lost and jobs created (with jobs lost invariably massively outnumbering those created) and I even had teachers telling me that school was a waste of time as there was nothing to do after school (an absolutely appalling attitude, shame on them, some of their pupils actually listened to that nonsense).

 

The idea of selectively looking at certain elements of times past to pretend that they were better is not limited to any generation. Personally I think it'd be deeply worrying if young people weren't cocky know it alls with a desire to change the world, I also think it'd be dangerous if there weren't sceptical older voices of experience pointing out some of the flaws in those exciting ideas.

 

Blimey, yes II remember the numbers ticking over on Job Losses and Job Gains, with, IIRC, (pre-Sir) Alistair Burnett or Sandy Gall providing the commentary. Very depressing. And, of course, there was the ever present threat of nuclear annihilation. A while ago my teenage daughter was obsessing about how terrifying anthropogenic climate change is for her generation (and, I'll admit that it is a bit) and how us old gits can't possibly understand . I'm probably a terrible parent, because my reply was "Well this is what your mother and I grew up with hanging over our heads" and pointed her to a Youtube copy of Threads. I don't know if she watched it all the way through, or if it counts as psychological abuse, but she hasn't raised the subject since .

[raymw]

I think cheque book modelling has increased. I was surprised, when I took an interest in model railways, (about ten years ago, after a break of 40 years or so) what folk were buying, instead of making. It's  a reflection of the lack of practical craftsmen in the full size world. too, much reliance on others, etc.

[Reorte]

         Model making in those days was not as common as it was later and indeed today, we are possibly at the zenith of the art.  But the manufacturers have upped the ante and produce such admirable models that many must wonder, what's the point.  That is, unless one is so good at it that the pleasure it brings is the attraction.

Do you have to be that good at it? Unless it's truly awful (and of course standards will vary considerably as to what is!) there's a lot of satisfaction in having something sitting there and thinking "I made that." Other people seem to be more impressed by it these days too. There's a lot of "I could never do that!" around, but the basic skills aren't really that hard to pick up and figure out (I'm probably doing loads wrong but that sorts itself out in time - hopefully!). Sadly if there is an aspect of "I could never do that!" that's true it's because so many people seem to have no patience whatsoever - things that save two seconds a day are regarded as wonderful for heaven's sake.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Reorte

[KDG]

And one comment suggests....

"Dr Kneebone is not related to Nurse Thighbone but I understand they are connected."

Actually spilled my tea, hilarious. Thankyou.

[pete_mcfarlane]

If memory serves me right, there is some Pompeian graffiti along the lines off " young people are so disrespectful" and "what is the world coming to when the young act so frivolously"

So it has always been thus.

 

Guy

 

And there's the famous quote from Socrates complaining about the youth of Athens:

 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

[Coryton]

I think cheque book modelling has increased. I was surprised, when I took an interest in model railways, (about ten years ago, after a break of 40 years or so) what folk were buying, instead of making. It's  a reflection of the lack of practical craftsmen in the full size world. too, much reliance on others, etc.

 

Maybe.

 

Or perhaps just the fact that there is so much more available now ready to use.

 

You have to be a very keen modeller to spend a lot of time and money on something that you can buy for less and - for many people - end up with something better than you could make yourself.

 

Do we know that people spend less time modelling now, or just that they buy what they reasonably can and spend more time on other modelling aspects? E.g. buy 'super-detailed' rolling stock and spend more time on making good scenery?

 

Personally, I don't think I would find any more time to model if I couldn't buy the things I do, I would just have something rather different (and less stock!).

[Coryton]

In an old job I was an industrial supervisor for MEng and MSc students at a certain university, I was always very pleased and impressed with the knowledge, work ethic and attitude to life of the students I had, it was a far cry from the usual image of young people peddled by the media.

 

I think it is one of those universal truisms that when people are young they see themselves as knowing the answers to all things, blaming the old for everything wrong in the world (in a sense there is some truth in that, although of course it works for the good stuff as well) and thinking people had it easy in the old days, and as people get old the world goes to hell in a hang basket, youth is terrible and it was all better in the old days. It's a naturally evolutionary path of human development.

 

If I have no truck for the idea that it was all better in the old days, the youth of today are terrible blah blah blah I'll also say I've had some quite sharp conversations with younger people when told my generation (I'm only 48, it's not that old....) had it easy. I grew up at a time when many British towns became wastelands of post industrial devastation, there was a regular slot on the TV news with jobs lost and jobs created (with jobs lost invariably massively outnumbering those created) and I even had teachers telling me that school was a waste of time as there was nothing to do after school (an absolutely appalling attitude, shame on them, some of their pupils actually listened to that nonsense).

 

The idea of selectively looking at certain elements of times past to pretend that they were better is not limited to any generation. Personally I think it'd be deeply worrying if young people weren't cocky know it alls with a desire to change the world, I also think it'd be dangerous if there weren't sceptical older voices of experience pointing out some of the flaws in those exciting ideas.

 

Quite, and it's hardly the case that children spend all their time in schools swiping things on tablets anyway. 

 

Primary school still involves lots of the tasks that apparently children don't do any more (cutting things out, sticking them in, making things out of plasticene...)

 

I expect there are secondary schools out there where each child has a laptop, but all of them round here rely on an awful lot of handwriting, which does demand a certain amount of dexterity.

[Pacific231G]

Quite, and it's hardly the case that children spend all their time in schools swiping things on tablets anyway. 

 

Primary school still involves lots of the tasks that apparently children don't do any more (cutting things out, sticking them in, making things out of plasticene...)

 

I expect there are secondary schools out there where each child has a laptop, but all of them round here rely on an awful lot of handwriting, which does demand a certain amount of dexterity.

My handwriting is and always has been awful. Had it been a criterion for the marking of school exams - as the "educational traditionalists" likes Gove have often advocated, then I doubt if I'd ever have got a degree or a career in television. The keyboard was my salvation and, somewhere in the depths of my garage, is my old portable typewriter along with the later Toshiba 1000 laptop that I once did most of my scriptwriting on.

[Jol Wilkinson]

My handwriting is also very poor. I wonder if we would benefit from using squared grid paper with additional horizontal lines as I believe the French do, when learning to write. Apparently it helps to define the size and alignment of letters and hence their consistency and clarity. 

[jjb1970]

These days the overwhelming majority of written communication, including personal messages, is electronic either via e-mail, social media or word processing. So to be honest poor hand writing probably isn't that important. When I worked for a class society I used to regularly have to extract cases from the archives where all the calculations had been written out on paper by hand, the plans had actually been drawn by a draughtsman etc, in some ways they could be quite beautiful documents (although even in the olden days a lot of hand writing was awful) but every approval I did was based on electronic submittals and the calculations were all submitted as excel, Mathcad etc files. So it really is more sensible for kids to leave school comfortable with electronic communication I think.

[Coryton]

These days the overwhelming majority of written communication, including personal messages, is electronic either via e-mail, social media or word processing. So to be honest poor hand writing probably isn't that important. When I worked for a class society I used to regularly have to extract cases from the archives where all the calculations had been written out on paper by hand, the plans had actually been drawn by a draughtsman etc, in some ways they could be quite beautiful documents (although even in the olden days a lot of hand writing was awful) but every approval I did was based on electronic submittals and the calculations were all submitted as excel, Mathcad etc files. So it really is more sensible for kids to leave school comfortable with electronic communication I think.

 

Well it's not as if schools don't given any exposure to computers - primary schools are full of tablets these days; the children don't spend all (or even most) of their time poking at little screens but they get plenty of exposure to technology. And there can't be many children leaving school who have never sent a text or message on social media.

 

I know of at least one professional society which still insists on written exams for their qualifications. I suspect it is largely for practical reasons - it's easier to find a room with desks in for an exam than to provide a laptop for every candidate. However, for people who have communicated almost exclusively via computers since they left school an exam which requires you to write continuously for three hours is not very pleasant. (I'm sure it's not for the people marking it either).

[Pacific231G]

 

 

I know of at least one professional society which still insists on written exams for their qualifications. I suspect it is largely for practical reasons - it's easier to find a room with desks in for an exam than to provide a laptop for every candidate. However, for people who have communicated almost exclusively via computers since they left school an exam which requires you to write continuously for three hours is not very pleasant. (I'm sure it's not for the people marking it either).

But are they being "tradtionally" obtuse by deciding that someone whose knowledge of accountancy, law, marketing, gnat gendering or whatever it is they examine is fine but won't pass them if their handwriting isn't up to scratch? It's a bit like the universities that used to demand Latin if you wanted to study just about anything however irrelevant it is to that field (I'm not saying that kids shouldn't be taught handwriting, just that it's not a skill that should be used much later to judge things where it's irrelevant)

Edited November 9, 2018 by Pacific231G