What did the typical GWR single track branch look like?

[Asterix2012]

On 02/11/2018 at 16:57, Pacific231G said:

Hi Mike

I'm not, the whole approach was different, but I was wondering whether, where lodging turns did occur in Britain, the rallway ever provided the accomodation  or whether it was Mrs. Miggins letting rooms in the town/village? 

Without knowing the whole social history I'm aware that in France cheminots  (i.e. railwaymen) were traditionally rather more apart from the rest of society than they were here (they did wicked things like working on Sundays) so, like schoolteachers and gendarmes tended to live in railway houses or appartments next to  or even in their station or works.

Appreciate I am a bit late to this discussion.

 

However I know of several examples in Scotland where dormitories were provided for enginemen on lodging turns

 

At Brechin, a large and impressive branch line terminus in Angus part of the station building was a dormitory.

 

In Mallaig at the end of the West Highland line there was a separate dormitory block across from the platform.

 

And I believe there was also a dormitory in Kyle of Lochalsh.

 

So perhaps this was not so unusual?

[johnofwessex]

The Lyme Regis branch loco's were shredded at Lyme not Axminster & a converted coach(?) provided for accomodation - it was a lodging turn from Exmouth Junction.

 

I gather one firemen got himself an evening job as a barman in a local pub which came with accomodation!

 

I also seem to remenber that at the terminus of the Mid Suffolk Light Railway some sort of enginemans hut was provided for crews to overnight in, but they took their bikes & cycled hell for leather to the nearest main line station for a ride home at th eend of the day

[Fat Controller]

30 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Appreciate I am a bit late to this discussion.

 

However I know of several examples in Scotland where dormitories were provided for enginemen on lodging turns

 

At Brechin, a large and impressive branch line terminus in Angus part of the station building was a dormitory.

 

In Mallaig at the end of the West Highland line there was a separate dormitory block across from the platform.

 

And I believe there was also a dormitory in Kyle of Lochalsh.

 

So perhaps this was not so unusual?

There were relatively modern lodging facilities, railway-owned, at Banbury and Old Oak Common. These days, local hotels are used as required; generally Travel Lodge or similar.

SNCF still have a network of 'Foyers' (lodgings), and use them; there are quite often rostered turms where a driver might find themselves booked to lodge, even though it's only a few tens of kilometres from their home depot.

[LBRJ]

The use of "Walking Time" was still applicable to some grades within the last 20 years - Though I am sure non of them actually did walk

[Nearholmer]

During the 1970s, when basic pay on BR was already pretty poor, and public-sector pay restrictions prevented it keeping-up with the cost of living, one of the “dodges” agreed between management and TUs to increase actual pay without breaching the restrictions was the use of “walking time” allowances for quite stupidly short walks, e.g. a hundred yards from the gate to the clocking-on machine being worth an hours pay.

 

This sort of thing left a legacy of silly pay arrangements that had to be resolved by “consolidation” in the 1980s and beyond. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

There were relatively modern lodging facilities, railway-owned, at Banbury and Old Oak Common. These days, local hotels are used as required; generally Travel Lodge or similar.

SNCF still have a network of 'Foyers' (lodgings), and use them; there are quite often rostered turms where a driver might find themselves booked to lodge, even though it's only a few tens of kilometres from their home depot.

SNCF lodging turns are a wonder to behold and are used extensively and - as you say - sometimes over relatively short distances.  They also use hotels in some places where a foyer is not available.   The traincrew diagrammers say that lodging is a more effective and economic use of crews but in view of the fact that the costs are handled by a completely different department and not charged back the real answer is that nobody in SNCF really knows if it is cost effective or not 

 

It's also the case over short distances that very often the wife turns up in the family car to take her husband home for the night and returns him the next day - a lot of Lille Drivers used to do that when supposedly lodging in Brussels and I bet they weren't alone in doing it.

 

The GWR/WR built a number of hostels post war for both lodging traincrews and providing accommodation for staff at places where housing was difficult to find.  Old Oak Common, Banbury, Didcot, and Westbury immediately come to mind plus I believe there was possibly something at Severn Tunnel Jcn as well.  Traditionally lodging at Plymouth was with local landladies and I think the same applied at Newton Abbot.  Dieselisation ended double home working on the Western, reportedly with significant financial savings.

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

SNCF lodging turns are a wonder to behold and are used extensively and - as you say - sometimes over relatively short distances.  They also use hotels in some places where a foyer is not available.   The traincrew diagrammers say that lodging is a more effective and economic use of crews but in view of the fact that the costs are handled by a completely different department and not charged back the real answer is that nobody in SNCF really knows if it is cost effective or not 

 

It's also the case over short distances that very often the wife turns up in the family car to take her husband home for the night and returns him the next day - a lot of Lille Drivers used to do that when supposedly lodging in Brussels and I bet they weren't alone in doing it.

 

The GWR/WR built a number of hostels post war for both lodging traincrews and providing accommodation for staff at places where housing was difficult to find.  Old Oak Common, Banbury, Didcot, and Westbury immediately come to mind plus I believe there was possibly something at Severn Tunnel Jcn as well.  Traditionally lodging at Plymouth was with local landladies and I think the same applied at Newton Abbot.  Dieselisation ended double home working on the Western, reportedly with significant financial savings.

When did BR finally get rid of their lodges? Back in 1981, I was working in Banbury, and was offered accommodation in the former BR building. It was what our American cousins would call a 'flophouse'; we declined the offer, and camped out on site (a large warehose complex).

[johnarcher]

On 05/11/2018 at 14:22, Karhedron said:

I totally agree. We normally view real railways from ground level which means that the "stuff" in the distance is foreshortened by perspective. Selective compression helps to represent this when we view from the unnatural "birds-eye-view" of many model railway layouts.

That's probably true, however what about the high-level, near eye-level, view that some favour (I do myself)?

If I had a lot more room (which I never shall) I'd really like to do a fairly simple, rural, terminus at scale size with eye-level viewing. Has that been done, I can't off-hand think of one.

(Personally I'm not that fuseed about lots of operation, so would like to use more space to try and get the sprawling effect of many rural termini rather than fill it with a busier sort of railway)

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

When did BR finally get rid of their lodges? Back in 1981, I was working in Banbury, and was offered accommodation in the former BR building. It was what our American cousins would call a 'flophouse'; we declined the offer, and camped out on site (a large warehose complex).

They went at various times and by all sorts of routes Brian.  southall (which I forgot to mention above) was sold off privately,;  Westbury became part WR Training School and part the AM's offices and traincrew messroom etc;  part of Didcot was sold off (and is still there but in other commercial use);  Old Oak Common was taken out of direct railway ownership and has of course now gone.  I doubt if there were any left in WR ownership (except possibly via the BRSA or welfare organisation?) by 1981.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

SNCF lodging turns are a wonder to behold and are used extensively and - as you say - sometimes over relatively short distances.  They also use hotels in some places where a foyer is not available.   The traincrew diagrammers say that lodging is a more effective and economic use of crews but in view of the fact that the costs are handled by a completely different department and not charged back the real answer is that nobody in SNCF really knows if it is cost effective or not 

 

It's also the case over short distances that very often the wife turns up in the family car to take her husband home for the night and returns him the next day - a lot of Lille Drivers used to do that when supposedly lodging in Brussels and I bet they weren't alone in doing it.

 

The GWR/WR built a number of hostels post war for both lodging traincrews and providing accommodation for staff at places where housing was difficult to find.  Old Oak Common, Banbury, Didcot, and Westbury immediately come to mind plus I believe there was possibly something at Severn Tunnel Jcn as well.  Traditionally lodging at Plymouth was with local landladies and I think the same applied at Newton Abbot.  Dieselisation ended double home working on the Western, reportedly with significant financial savings.

The one at Severn Tunnel was used in the 70s as housing by Gwent Council Social Services, under the name 'The Moors'.  It had a rather unsavoury reputation both for the type of resident and the conditions; i believe it has since been demolished and nobody misses it.   I believe double home working remained for restaurant car staff, and the postal workers on the Cardiff-York TPO were doing it until the end of the service, but using local lodgings rather than hostel accommodation.

 

My great uncle Ted, a 'character' who'd spent the Great War in the Catering Corps at Aldershot (we joked that he'd probably killed more British troops than any German), joined the GW as a restaurant car steward when he was demobbed and worked double home for some time on the Barry-North Shields 'Ports to Ports Express.  He got a little more than bed and breakfast from his Geordie landlady and the day she turned up at the house with 3 of his alleged kids in tow is a family legend.  Great aunt Julie put a stop to his railway career forthwith and he spent the rest of his life with a professional bad back claiming the dole and making himself useful as a bookie's runner.

 

He retained his railway interest, though, and is very largely to blame for mine!  The morning Cardiff-Newcastle's breakfast was still famous in my time on the railway in the 70s, and the train still did a silver service high tea!

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I was just about to say that SNCF lodging turns are probably kept in being because of the very strong tradition of French railwaymen having “liaisons” in their lodging towns, when up crops a Welsh example of the very same thing!

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Ah, I was just about to say that SNCF lodging turns are probably kept in being because of the very strong tradition of French railwaymen having “liaisons” in their lodging towns, when up crops a Welsh example of the very same thing!

Didn't mean to steal your thunder, mate!

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Ah, I was just about to say that SNCF lodging turns are probably kept in being because of the very strong tradition of French railwaymen having “liaisons” in their lodging towns, when up crops a Welsh example of the very same thing!

Incidentally doing a spot of timetable checking I suspect Lille might well still have a lodging turn at Comines - a genuine branch terminus (26 minutes running time from Lille!!).  However I wouldn't be surprised if we go back far enough that even the GWR once upon a time had lodging turns that spent the night not much further than that from home.

[LBRJ]

It was only with the introduction of Voyagers that Preston based train crew stopped lodging at Penzance; though they used the Queens Hotel so it was probably seen as a good turn!

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, LBRJ said:

It was only with the introduction of Voyagers that Preston based train crew stopped lodging at Penzance; though they used the Queens Hotel so it was probably seen as a good turn!

Yes Cross Country introduced quite a lot of lodging turns in various places - a major reversal of BR policy.   Lodging is very expensive - I know, I've managed lodging contracts and costs in post BR times - and you have to get something really worthwhile out of it in utilisation terms to justify the cost or it has to offer overall managerial savings (such as avoiding providing a properly managed traincrew depot although modern technology now provides a way round that hurdle).

[Nearholmer]

Stationmaster - could I seek your opinion on a strange signal, which is the subject of discussion in the last few posts in my thread (link under my signature)?

 

With apologies to the owner of this thread .......... it does seem to be a GWR signal, so tangentially relevant though.

 

Kevin

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Adrian Stevenson]

On 01/11/2018 at 14:13, clachnaharry said:

 

Come to think of it, Highworth and Malmesbury and also had yards accessed from the buffer stop end of the station - so perhaps not too uncommon.

 

I am doing Malmesbury station in 7mm. This location offers virtually everything I wanted to be included in a layout. I have a thread in the 7mm section of the forum covering my build which is only in the early stages at present.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Jeff Smith]

Interesting layout, was the goods shed ever connected at the buffer end?  Also were locos allowed to pass through goods sheds?  I think I read somewhere that they normally were not.

[The Johnster]

Depended on location, Jeff, but where they were allowed into or through goods sheds the movement had to to be undertaken with extreme caution and at the lowest possible speed, with everybody involved aware of what is happening.  You can't go barging about in sheds where visibility is restricted and men may be working in vehicles that might be being loaded or unloaded.  These might include staff not in the railway's employment collecting or delivering items, so great care has to be taken.  

 

Added to the hazards is that the entrance/exit doorways to the goods sheds were usually very tight to the loading gauge, so loco crews have to keep their heads inside and can't look out properly to see what's going on!  

 

A loco inside a goods shed would be kept quiet, not actively being fired and avoiding the safety valves lifting, as far as possible.  A shed full of steam wasn't much use to anyone!  Where locos were not allowed inside the goods shed, normally the larger depots, wagon and vans were moved by winch and capstan.  If these were not available, reach wagons and/or shunting horses were employed.  In extreme cases, the vehicles could be moved by hand using pinchbars to lever the wheels into motion, but this was only resorted to when absolutely necessary.  Some goods sheds served as loco stabling points in later years, such as at Llanelli.

Edited July 13, 2019 by The Johnster

[DCB]

On 13/07/2019 at 11:10, Adrian Stevenson said:

 

I am doing Malmesbury station in 7mm. This location offers virtually everything I wanted to be included in a layout. I have a thread in the 7mm section of the forum covering my build which is only in the early stages at present.

 

Cheers, Ade.

A very odd station, intended to be a through station the line burrowed under a hill to get to the site whereas it could equally well have been built the other side of the hill.  Photos show the siding beyond the goods shed full of wagons the problem being finding somewhere to put the extra wagons while trying to shunt the line beyond the shed.  The run round was through the loco shed and the middle road is shown with wagons parked in photos.  It needs a longer site than the usual Faringdon/ Ashburton BLT which rules it out for most people.

Excellent book The Malmesbury Branch by Mike Fenton    See pics

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi David, thanks for showing the pics.

 

I have a copy of Mike's excellent book which is my "Bible" for the layout build.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Compound2632]

On 10/07/2019 at 17:56, Nearholmer said:

Ah, I was just about to say that SNCF lodging turns are probably kept in being because of the very strong tradition of French railwaymen having “liaisons” in their lodging towns, when up crops a Welsh example of the very same thing!

 

Ah, you have me reaching for my Zola - La Bête humaine. 

[Lacathedrale]

So from what I can gather, one could expect a profusion of 0-6-0PTs (and some of the early saddle tanks towards the start of the 20th century), and by some rare exception the small and large prairies (i.e. Kingsbridge) - but what of tender locos? Doing some cursory reading suggests that the route classifications for most branch lines were such that only the lighest tender locos could run on it, such as a the 2800-class, Manor, etc..

 

IIRC there was a branch that saw Kings, but it is my understanding this is by far the exception.

 

Presumably in reality a branch would have a particular set of locomotives assigned for a period that would rarely deviate, compared to a shed on a main or secondary line which could roster based on a combination of suitability and availablity at the given moment?

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

So from what I can gather, one could expect a profusion of 0-6-0PTs (and some of the early saddle tanks towards the start of the 20th century), and by some rare exception the small and large prairies (i.e. Kingsbridge) - but what of tender locos? Doing some cursory reading suggests that the route classifications for most branch lines were such that only the lighest tender locos could run on it, such as a the 2800-class, Manor, etc..

 

IIRC there was a branch that saw Kings, but it is my understanding this is by far the exception.

 

Presumably in reality a branch would have a particular set of locomotives assigned for a period that would rarely deviate, compared to a shed on a main or secondary line which could roster based on a combination of suitability and availablity at the given moment?

Very unlikely to find 28XXs on branch lines - they were (are!) big beasts with 17 ton axle loading. Blue and Red routes only.

 

Look up "GWR route availablity" for more info.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Harlequin

[The Johnster]

Kings worked on the Kingsbridge branch in South Devon, but I wouldn't describe that as a typical branch line, more a single track main line!  As we have seen, there is no such thing as a 'typical' GW branch line, as they were almost all promoted originally by local interests and absorbed by the company.  This is reflected not only in matters such as architecture and building styles but in standards of construction, curvature, axle loading, and running speeds.

 

The GW's method of delineating route availability, which is fundamentally the axle loading that a route can withstand, was to use colour coded spots painted on the cab sides of locos, in descending weight order red, blue and yellow.  Kings were 'double red', with 2 spots, and at the other end of the scale were unclassified locos such as 48xx/14xx and 16xx.  Most branch lines in the conventional sense of the word were yellow or blue restricted, as were some secondary main lines; the Cambrian was blue restricted throughout.

 

By and large, though not exclusively, branches were short enough to be worked by tank engines, typically 48xx, 54/64/74xx, 57xx/8750, and 44/45xx/4575; 4575 was heavier than 45xx and prohibited from some branches.  This enabled turntables to be dispensed with at the termini.  Small tender locos such as Dean Goods and 2251 could be found on longer branch lines like Lambourn or Fairford.  Pre-nationalisation, older locos like 517s, Metros, 2021, and 2721 were common as well.  But larger tender engines, even blue spot ones like Manors and 43xx, were regarded as overkill for branch line work.  94xx panniers were not used for branch work except in South Wales, which I'll come back to, as they were red spot engines.

 

Locos exclusive to branch lines were found where there were sheds (often sub-sheds of a larger main line shed) at the terminus, which did not happen everywhere.  Provision of a branch shed depended on the timetable, and where you wanted the first train of the day to leave from.  If you wanted it to leave from the branch terminus to take commuters into town, you had to provide basic overnight loco facilities, but they were clearly not necessary if you wanted the the first train to leave from the junction, carrying the morning papers and the mail.  You might still have 'regular' engines, though; Llantrisant used 1471 for the Penygraig branch and 1421 for the Cowbridge branch almost exclusively.

 

South Wales is different, as the normal colour coded route availability indications do not apply, and prohibitions/restrictions of loco classes on routes is given in the local Sectional Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations).  As alluded to previously, 94xx worked on the Machen-New Tredegar branch and others here.

 

Axle loading is the principal, but not the only, reason to restrict the use of a loco on a route; curvature prevents some classes with longer wheelbases from being used due to flange and rail wear.  Again in South Wales, the Porthcawl branch was worked by 44xx locos which were restricted to 15mph on the branch's vicious curves, and were turned every week at Tondu shed (allocation 50 odd tank locos but it had a turntable) to even out the flange wear.  Excursion traffic on this seaside branch was handled by big engines up to Hall class, but they were restricted to 5mph over the entire route; you wouldn't want to be doing that over more than a few miles!  64xx powered auto trains provided the service in later years, restricted to 5mph on the curves.

 

Seaside branches such as Kingsbridge, Newquay, Porthcawl, and Barry Island attracted big tender engines that could work excursions and holiday traffic into their long platforms through from point of origin, but the St Ives branch was yellow restricted and featured 12 coach restaurant car Cornish Riviera Express workings with double headed 45xx.