Industrial Beyer Gattatts 0-4-0+0-4-0. Standard gauge

[Gordon A]

Can any one advise me as to where I can find the best information on the four locos livery details?

 

I have it in the back of my mind that one of the engines received two different liveries during its working life.

 

Gordon A

[Michael Edge]

I can't remember where the information came from but this is the best interpretation we could get of the Vivian's loco.

 

 

 

I built this in EM gauge from the Backwoods kit, painting by Dave Studley.

 

William Francis was lined out in similar style but I don't know what colour it was before preservation, it has been painted in a very bright yellow/brown since. The GKN loco doesn't appear to have had any lining, possibly plain green, I can't see any lining on the Sneyd colliery loco either but I don't have any good photos of this one.

[Barclay]

Look after it Mike - there's an unmade kit, without wheels, on ebay at the moment that's up to £705 !

 

That's not a mistype, and it's not one of those optimistic 'Buy it Now' prices, it's the actual result of 51 bids, and 2 days to go...

 

Perhaps I should build mine before I decide to flog it instead!

 

Beautiful model by the way.

 

Gordon I'm sure I've seen colour photo's in one of my industrial steam books. Only a snapshot of a particular time and place of course but I'll have a look if it helps.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Barclay

[Michael Edge]

Not mine, it was for a customer - and it was a pig of a kit to build as well.

[Sandhole]

Not mine, it was for a customer - and it was a pig of a kit to build as well.

That seems to be the general opinion about the kit.

Mike Wiltshire built mine for me in exchange for some LGB stuff for his son.

He did not find it an enjoyable experience!!

The loco is lovely and runs better and better!!

£705 and the bidding hasn't stopped!!!!!

Lord and Lady!, that is the loco kit version of the huge limited edition Sandy Denny box set that came out some years back!! That goes for daft money on ebay on occaision!

                                                                             C.

[Barclay]

Oh dear, his crane tank went together OK.

 

Sounds like the Sandy Denny box set is a more enjoyable experience, still, I generally choose the most difficult option in life:

 

Easy - sell kit for a fortune on ebay.

 

Difficult - spend months building it and swearing a lot.

 

I never learn...

[PhilMortimer]

As I understand it, Wulliam Francis was dark NCB Blue with yellow lining at the end of its career. However, it was quite difficult to see under teh grime! I think I have the livery details on Sneyd #2, s that is one of the one's I'm building for my client and he has given me the livery details. Mine will be William Francis in Blue.

 

It seems that this is a difficult loco to build in both 4mm and 7mm scales.

[Sandhole]

As I understand it, Wulliam Francis was dark NCB Blue with yellow lining at the end of its career. However, it was quite difficult to see under teh grime! I think I have the livery details on Sneyd #2, s that is one of the one's I'm building for my client and he has given me the livery details. Mine will be William Francis in Blue.

 

It seems that this is a difficult loco to build in both 4mm and 7mm scales.

If you go on the Ivo Peters film of Bill Francis, she appears to be black. Mind you, the blue might be very dayk.

I'm sure there must be footage of her on You Tube.

                                                                          C.

[Sandhole]

I can't remember where the information came from but this is the best interpretation we could get of the Vivian's loco.

 

04-22 fl painted.JPG

 

04-22 br painted.JPG

 

I built this in EM gauge from the Backwoods kit, painting by Dave Studley.

 

William Francis was lined out in similar style but I don't know what colour it was before preservation, it has been painted in a very bright yellow/brown since. The GKN loco doesn't appear to have had any lining, possibly plain green, I can't see any lining on the Sneyd colliery loco either but I don't have any good photos of this one.

Mike,

    Your stunning ex works Garrett!!

A picture of my much loved beast as built by Mike Coach Bogie Wiltshire.

And he says he can't build locos!!!! Pisht!!!

The cylinders are Comet ones. Ha wanted to throw the whole thing against the wall trying to build the kit cylinders!!!!!

                                                                   Chris.

[Giles]

Here you go.... about 7.25min.

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/YVTQhpkAITo?list=FLltSSfdrM_cI8bDpVx_GkvQ

Edited November 2, 2018 by Giles

[Sandhole]

Oh dear, his crane tank went together OK.

 

Sounds like the Sandy Denny box set is a more enjoyable experience, still, I generally choose the most difficult option in life:

 

Easy - sell kit for a fortune on ebay.

 

Difficult - spend months building it and swearing a lot.

 

I never learn...

As you can see, Manchester Steel 25 is a battered old lady!!

Then again, she has had a lot of use!!

Mike was convinced the gearboxes would just fail. He had to cut one side off completely and solder it back on to get the gears to mesh properly!! His experience was shared by at least two people we have talked to at exhibitions who were running these beasts!!

She is now at least 25 years old at runs better and better!!!!

I repeat, And he says he can't build locos!!! Pisht!!!

                                                    C.

[Norton961]

I understand that the Snyd loco was painted maroon, similar to LMS maroon. There is a slide showing the loco I. What appears to be that colour.

 

David

[PhilMortimer]

I understand that the Snyd loco was painted maroon, similar to LMS maroon. There is a slide showing the loco I. What appears to be that colour.

 

David

 

That's my understanding, according to my client (and he grew up watching it go past his house).

 

The video appears to confirm that WF is dark blue under the grime.

[Alex Duckworth]

 My model of William Francis made after many, many views of the Ivo Peters film. The loco was actually lined dark blue but appears on film to be overall dirty black. Built from the 4mm Backwoods kit, it is in P4 with both chassis beam compensated and with modifications to the brake gear - William Francis had slightly different brake rod and crank fittings to the others. The staff at Bressingham were kind enough to let me photograph and measure the loco several years ago, by which time it had been repainted yellowy brown.

 

Alex

 

[Gordon A]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

So far I have:

1) Vivian & Sons, Swansea. No 10. Built 1924. O/No 02353. W/No 6172.  Gloss black, lined red.  The only Garratt to be fitted for vacuum braked wagons.

2) Sneyd Collieries. Burslem. No 3. Built 1932. O/No 01173. W/No 6729.  Plain colour? Lined buffer beams.

3) Guest Keen & Baldwin.    No 12. Built 1934. O/No 01177. W/No 6779.  No details. 

    Cardiff

4) Badesley Colliery                         Built 1937. O/No 01187. W/No 6841. Dark blue lined cream.  (William Francis). 

    Athestone. Warwickshire.            

 

I am aware from photographs of one being  a brightish red, and one I think I have read was pale blue changed to green part way through its life. 

 

 

Alex - Any chance of a simple explanation as to how the brake gear was different please?

 

Gordon A

Edited November 3, 2018 by Gordon A

[Barclay]

Not much to add, but:

 

Sneyd no.3 in filthy maroon in 1961. Photo suggests to me some evidence of dark lining on the tank. (Industrial Steam, Ian Allen, 1994).

William Francis apparently black but probably filthy blue with white or cream lining in 1964 (w. Midlands industrial steam in colour part 2, Irwell Press, 2015).

[Giles]

Guest Keen No. 12 was definitely lined.... What colours I don't know - I only have black and white pictures......

 

Regarding the 4mm Backwoods kit, of course the hind bunker is only correct for the Vivian, as I believe subsequent locos had increased coal capacity and decreased water capacity (it shows it the rivet lines on the tank sides)

 

Best

Giles

[Michael Edge]

£705 for a fairly poor kit (which took 43 hours to build) would go a long way towards a scratchbuilt model.....

[Barclay]

Its down to £300 now, how can that happen?

 

Info from the kit instructions regarding liveries:

 

Vivian - originally black lined with vermilion edged in gold.Later LNER green lined with black edged in white. Frames possibly maroon.

 

Sneyd no.3 - Black, lined red. Dome, safety valves, top feed and smokebox corner mouldings polished brass. Later red, lined black. Possibly North Stafford Lake.

 

Guest, Keen, Baldwins - GWR green, lined black.

 

William Francis - Black, lined white with thinner band of red. Later Royal blue with white and red lining.

 

All this talk, I'm tempted to have a bash at it!

[Alex Duckworth]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

So far I have:

1) Vivian & Sons, Swansea. No 10. Built 1924. O/No 02353. W/No 6172.  Gloss black, lined red.  The only Garratt to be fitted for vacuum braked wagons.

2) Sneyd Collieries. Burslem. No 3. Built 1932. O/No 01173. W/No 6729.  Plain colour? Lined buffer beams.

3) Guest Keen & Baldwin.    No 12. Built 1934. O/No 01177. W/No 6779.  No details. 

    Cardiff

4) Badesley Colliery                         Built 1937. O/No 01187. W/No 6841. Dark blue lined cream.  (William Francis). 

    Athestone. Warwickshire.            

 

I am aware from photographs of one being  a brightish red, and one I think I have read was pale blue changed to green part way through its life. 

 

 

Alex - Any chance of a simple explanation as to how the brake gear was different please?

 

Gordon A

 

Hello Gordon,

 

 According to my research at the time of building (1996 - 7ish) "William Francis" whilst at Baddesley Colliery was Dark Blue, lined in red and white. There was a very good article on the loco in an early Bylines, possibly Vol 1 No.3, entitled "The Beast of Baddesley" with some good photos of the loco in a less grubby state. I've scanned some of my photos of the trip to Bressingham which may help to understand the differences in the brake gear when compared with the kit instructions - they amount to revised brackets for the brake crosshaft and crank which are mounted further inboard. I am not sure if WF was the only one with this arrangement.

Alex.

[Sandhole]

Its down to £300 now, how can that happen?

 

Info from the kit instructions regarding liveries:

 

Vivian - originally black lined with vermilion edged in gold.Later LNER green lined with black edged in white. Frames possibly maroon.

 

Sneyd no.3 - Black, lined red. Dome, safety valves, top feed and smokebox corner mouldings polished brass. Later red, lined black. Possibly North Stafford Lake.

 

Guest, Keen, Baldwins - GWR green, lined black.

 

William Francis - Black, lined white with thinner band of red. Later Royal blue with white and red lining.

 

All this talk, I'm tempted to have a bash at it!

Go on!! You know you want to!!!

                                             Chris.

[Giles]

Hello Gordon,

 

 According to my research at the time of building (1996 - 7ish) "William Francis" whilst at Baddesley Colliery was Dark Blue, lined in red and white. There was a very good article on the loco in an early Bylines, possibly Vol 1 No.3, entitled "The Beast of Baddesley" with some good photos of the loco in a less grubby state. I've scanned some of my photos of the trip to Bressingham which may help to understand the differences in the brake gear when compared with the kit instructions - they amount to revised brackets for the brake crosshaft and crank which are mounted further inboard. I am not sure if WF was the only one with this arrangement.

Alex.

Scan.jpeg

My recollection is that the three later locos has this type of brake gear, and only the Vivian had the larger 'lever'.

[Sandhole]

I've just found the £700 Garrett.

It is a made up kit, so the price is ,sort of , understandable.

£300 odd is for the unassembled kit. Again, only game in town, so sort of understandable.

We aren't doing too badly for industrials on eface at the moment.

An unbuilt body with wheels for the K's little Hudswell, the aformentioned Garrett and a Doxford Crane tank, a High Level Hawthorn Leslie 0-6-0 and a Peter K Manning Wardle 0-6-0 tank.

Mind you, if building the Manning is as stressful as trying to build his GWR 3521 kit, then it will be interesting!!!

Both my mate Mike, the man who built my Garrett, and his Dad, Brian, who was a building genius both decided against it!!!

Amazingly, considering all the grief they get, on occaision, on this site, Mike built the Falcon Brass 3521 Class and found it massively better than the Peter K example!!!

I've just stuck my head over the parapet again!!! So I'm waiting for the shots!!!!

                                                                                                      Chris.

[Gordon A]

Thanks every for the information.

 

Gordon A

[rope runner]

The built kit on ebay at £700 is mine. Frankly, I thought - if people are prepared to pay that kind of money then I am willing to let mine go. 

 

Paul A.