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New Class 93 Tri-Mode


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3 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I must admit I was surprised to see that 30 have been ordered and according to wnxx.com, the first ten are due for delivery in 2023.  I remember reading on Europhoenix/ROG’s Facebook page that the 93’s were to replace it’s heritage traction over the next five years.

 

There's 10 ordered, with options within the framework agreeement for a further 20.

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2 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

There's 10 ordered, with options within the framework agreeement for a further 20.

I can understand the first batch of ten but thirty seems very ambitious, unless they plan to sublease some of them in a similar manner as DRS to TPE.

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6 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

If anyone sees a side or roof view can you please post it on the thread so I can compare them with the 88s


I think you’ve got at least a 18 month wait for that.

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21 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I can understand the first batch of ten but thirty seems very ambitious, unless they plan to sublease some of them in a similar manner as DRS to TPE.

 

According to an interview Railway Herald Magazine did with Karl Watts from ROG last year, the company are looking to replace the 37s, 47s and 57s with the new locos for stock movements, as well as entering into the intermodal market and other freight flows - specially seeking 'new to rail' traffic, although no doubt they will bid for existing traffic if it works for them.  

 

Whether the other 20 appear will depend on how the business goes, but a framework agreement usually gives companies a fixed timescale to order up to a specific number of additional locos/vehicles at the same price, without actually committing to buy them.  I doubt this one is any different.

Edited by MarshLane
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21 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

If anyone sees a side or roof view can you please post it on the thread so I can compare them with the 88s


If the production of the class 93 for ROG follows a similar pattern to the class 88, the earliest opportunity to get a good close up of a completed locomotive is likely to be at the next InnoTrans event in Berlin in September 2022. 
 

InnoTrans 2016 is where 88003 was officially handed over by manufacturers Stadler to Beacon Rail.  

 

88003 InnoTrans September 2016

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If they intend to replace the 37/47/57 fleet then presumably they'll have to watch the weight of these?

What is the proposed weight/axleload/Route Availability?

Just thinking that the most recent new locos have all been Bo-Bo with an axle load of 20t+ - are there still any lines these are likely to be used on that couldn't take the weight of them? (going by axleloads of about 17t for a normal 37 and 18.5-19t for a 47).

I suppose that how much work there is for them will also depend on whether trains will have one loco, or be top-and-tailed?

 

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2 hours ago, keefer said:

If they intend to replace the 37/47/57 fleet then presumably they'll have to watch the weight of these?

What is the proposed weight/axleload/Route Availability?

Just thinking that the most recent new locos have all been Bo-Bo with an axle load of 20t+ - are there still any lines these are likely to be used on that couldn't take the weight of them? (going by axleloads of about 17t for a normal 37 and 18.5-19t for a 47).

 

It depends on what they want really. As a generalisation axle weight = tractive effort and therefore they'll have an element of say in what axle weight it ends up being. What I don't know is how much of the weight of the 68 and 88 is providing essential functionality and how much (if any) is ballasting. I expect for example the 68s were specced at RA7 and so are as heavy as they can be for that.

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i meant it from the other end, as t'were

certain lines on the Network are only allowed to have locos/units with a certain max. axleload.

i.e. class 37s are very useful across the Network for their relatively low axleload, 'go anywhere' spec.

class 47s are a bit heavier but still 'universally' useful

These new locos have, easily more power, but over 4 axles rather than 6 - hence an axleload of 20t+

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

I expect for example the 68s were specced at RA7 and so are as heavy as they can be for that

That's as maybe (may be similar for the 93s, who knows?) but the 37s are RA5 - that's quite a difference.

Either the 93s won't go everywhere the 37s do, or they will need to upgrade a lot of lines to accommodate the new locos.

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1 minute ago, keefer said:

i meant it from the other end, as t'were

certain lines on the Network are only allowed to have locos/units with a certain max. axleload.

i.e. class 37s are very useful across the Network for their relatively low axleload, 'go anywhere' spec.

class 47s are a bit heavier but still 'universally' useful

These new locos have, easily more power, but over 4 axles rather than 6 - hence an axleload of 20t+

That's as maybe (may be similar for the 93s, who knows?) but the 37s are RA5 - that's quite a difference.

Either the 93s won't go everywhere the 37s do, or they will need to upgrade a lot of lines to accommodate the new locos.

 

I think your going into far too much detail.  ROG operate primarily over main lines, not odd branches (although nothing to stop them if there was a flow) and in general (always exceptions) ROG trains are not top and tailed, although who knows what requirement any future freight workings may have.

 

The 93s are company specific, they are being purchased/acquired by ROG and designed to do what ROG want to do, but they are not a replacement for all 37s on the Network.  I doubt you'll see them going to Fort William for example!!!

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aye, fair enough!

i'm not familiar with ROG's sphere of operations so was thinking from the 'bottom up' - in that if 37s were used, it was often because they were sometimes needed for their RA availability.

what i meant was, i hope ROG know the RA of the lines they intend to use the 93s on, that's all ;)

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10 hours ago, keefer said:

i meant it from the other end, as t'were

certain lines on the Network are only allowed to have locos/units with a certain max. axleload.

i.e. class 37s are very useful across the Network for their relatively low axleload, 'go anywhere' spec.

class 47s are a bit heavier but still 'universally' useful

These new locos have, easily more power, but over 4 axles rather than 6 - hence an axleload of 20t+

That's as maybe (may be similar for the 93s, who knows?) but the 37s are RA5 - that's quite a difference.

Either the 93s won't go everywhere the 37s do, or they will need to upgrade a lot of lines to accommodate the new locos.

 

Yes I meant if they wanted less axle load then they'd need to also go with less tractive effort (not necessarily power). They maybe see most of their work being on RA7 or better. There must be a reason why they feel Bo-Bo is the best solution.

 

How much if their work is on worse than RA7? By the sounds of it DRS are only keeping the 37s because of the RHTT contract. Most lines with low ratings are because a high rating isn't needed 99% of the time.

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30 minutes ago, cheesysmith said:

I sounded if they could do a Co Co version? Lower axle load and if fitted with the DPU system as used in the USA, would be perfect to finally allow the retirement of the 37s knocking around that are expensive to overhaul.

 

Originally the stuff about them said Co-Co IIRC. I'm pretty sure the latest release says Bo-Bo though?

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13 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

It depends on what they want really. As a generalisation axle weight = tractive effort and therefore they'll have an element of say in what axle weight it ends up being. What I don't know is how much of the weight of the 68 and 88 is providing essential functionality and how much (if any) is ballasting. I expect for example the 68s were specced at RA7 and so are as heavy as they can be for that.

 

1 hour ago, cheesysmith said:

I sounded if they could do a Co Co version? Lower axle load and if fitted with the DPU system as used in the USA, would be perfect to finally allow the retirement of the 37s knocking around that are expensive to overhaul.

 

29 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Originally the stuff about them said Co-Co IIRC. I'm pretty sure the latest release says Bo-Bo though?

 

Don't forget the class 67s ordered by EWS were originally going to be Co-Co locos!

 

It was the fact that the only UK approved 100mph plus Co-Co bogie design around was the one under the class 89 electric and Brush refused to let a rival loco builder use it that saw the locos emerge as Bo-Bo a design.

 

Its quite possible we are seeing something similar here - it may be that the ROG did originally want a Co-Co design but the costs of getting a Co-Co bogie approved for the UK market was simply too great and as such they have been forced to go with the proven Bo-Bo ones used under the Vossloh 68s and 88s.

 

If they had been after 200 plus locos then its possible that Vossloh / Stadler may well have been willing to go to the hassle of developing a Co-Co bogie.

Edited by phil-b259
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17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Its quite possible we are seeing something similar here - it may be that the ROG did originally want a Co-Co design but the costs of getting a Co-Co bogie approved for the UK market was simply too great and as such they have been forced to go with the proven Bo-Bo ones used under the Vossloh 68s and 88s.

 

And also the original text mentioned the 3800hp of the 68 on diesel so maybe that's also part of the compromise (or they decided it wasn't needed).

 

Has anyone any info as to how 68s perform on freight? They pull NR ballast trains and DRS intermodals but I don't know if they are hindered by their layout and lack of weight.

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For anyone who follows the Railcolor site, in one of their latest updates there is an artist’s impression of the new locomotive for ROG. Apart from the fact it may well appear to have a EuroDual style cab is the livery it’s in...

Edited by Purnu
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On 16/01/2021 at 13:24, phil-b259 said:

It was the fact that the only UK approved 100mph plus Co-Co bogie design around was the one under the class 89 electric and Brush refused to let a rival loco builder use it that saw the locos emerge as Bo-Bo a design.

 

As I understand it Brush were more than happy to license it, for suitable remuneration which was beyond the budget of the 67...

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On 26/02/2021 at 21:31, Dixie Dean said:

And what do you know - we have a RevolutioN OO gauge Class 93!!!!

 

You mean we have an Announcement for a class 93

 

Don't see them building it anytime before the real Class 93 because of the errors that might bring

 

Peter

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13 minutes ago, Peter749 said:

You mean we have an Announcement for a class 93

 

Don't see them building it anytime before the real Class 93 because of the errors that might bring

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

You're right - and the licence we have from Stadler and ROG stipulates that, while they undertake with assistance and data during the development of the prototype, the models are not to be released before the prototype is here.  As we've all seen in the past changes can be made during development which we will closely monitor.  No one - ROG, Stadler, the enthusiast or us - wants an inaccurate model.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited by Ben A
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57 minutes ago, RPNaylor0301 said:

That's awesome. I'm assuming N gauge only, but hoping that this might take a similar collaborative route to the MK5 sets..!

 

 


No, it’s OO (as mentioned in the post by @Dixie Dean above) and on Revolution’s website http://www.revolutiontrains.com/revolution-goes-tri-mode-with-rog/

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On 16/01/2021 at 15:24, phil-b259 said:

 

It was the fact that the only UK approved 100mph plus Co-Co bogie design around was the one under the class 89 electric and Brush refused to let a rival loco builder use it that saw the locos emerge as Bo-Bo a design.

 

Wait a minute!

What about the classes 50 and 55? Was it that they were not current or what?

Cheers,

John.

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21 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Wait a minute!

What about the classes 50 and 55? Was it that they were not current or what?

Cheers,

John.

 

I think they mean over 100mph, not inclusive of it. Or were the 50 and 55 bogies rated at over 100?

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