EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts

[Jol Wilkinson]

Up to EMGS how they choose to do the pricing. But with no retailer to make a margin for, these could potentially be cheaper than the Peco OO.

That will depend on Peco's pricing to the EMGS and how much the Society needs to recoup to cover its own investment in these products.

[davefrk]

I'm sorry, this comes across as a bit patronising. Its basically saying "You wont be able to use this unless we have shown you how to do it, so we're going to stop you picking it up from your local model shop". Firstly, if its that complicated that I need my hand held, its not going to encourage me to try it, and secondly, who's to say that model shops wont also be able to provide specialist advice? Thats what they're their for. No one is suggesting its sold in Tesco alongside baked beans. 

I'm sorry too, that you've come to that conclusion, nothing could be further from the truth. If someone needs help then it's there for you, you can follow it if you like or just ignore it if you think you know better. As for model shops, not to mention the on line box shifters, in my experience if it's not Hornby or Bachmann then the model shops either haven't a clue or don't want to know anyway. How many times has a new member on here said they were told something in their local shop that has proved to be just plain wrong.

 

Dave.

[P.J.]

Thank you to the members of the EMGS committee that are commenting on here, it is refreshing. My comment that I wouldn't join the society just to buy the track wasn't ment to be inflammatory. I have a very limited modelling budget, as many do, and lots of potential ideas on how to spend the time/pennies available. My initial understanding was that the track would only be available to members, and that is fair enough, the society have taken a massive, calculated risk, the membership has the right to the rewards. I'm of a younger generation that don't seem, from my experience, as willing to join societies straight up. Yes there are pros and cons, but that's a different debate, not for here.

 

What I'm trying to say (in a roundabout way) is that the cost of membership, whilst very good value for money, is sometimes hard to justify up front. If I was able to easily pick up a couple of points and some plain lengths then I'd be able to build a little section and see if it worked for me and then probably, if it did, would want to expand and explore, at which point society membership opens a lot more doors. I understand the complexities and time and financial drains on, mostly volunteers, to retail society products, and that sometimes limiting sales to members only, makes those challenges a bit more manageable. So hearing that the products may be available at Shows is very good, as exhibitions, by their nature showcase what can be done. It may actually get me to go to a show too. All sorts of clever balances can be made with pricing the track to members/none members so that after buying a certain amount there's a big enough change in price that membership "pays for itself", but there are many folks clever than I that could articulate and arrange that better that I can!

 

 

However you slice it, it is fantastic news that this is being produced, and I wish the EMGS all the best with it and every success, it is certainly something I'd like to buy, my purchasing potential does come down to price, availablity and ease of purchase.

[Oldddudders]

For goodness sake. Here is a smashing and enabling new announcement, offering an easier route for the 4mm community to lay scale-gauge track (or at least a lot closer than OO), where a forward-thinking society is putting its members’ money where their mouth is by working with a leading and respected manufacturer - and we have pages of doubts about whether it is fair, whether societies are worth joining, and why it needs to be in the (few remaining) high street shops to be a success.

 

Some people really do have a glass that is only ever half empty, not half full.

[Junctionmad]

I agree , I’m not currently a member of the society , but if I was considering an EM layout , I’d certainly join , membership is very cheap in comparison to any current railway modelling costs

 

 

I think the general idea to limit supplies of the new track to members other then at shows is also the right idea

 

Dave

Edited November 6, 2018 by Junctionmad

[martin_wynne]

Given that the new track will in effect be in competition with their 00 product (or any EM product of their own they may be thinking about), Peco may have set some conditions on the distribution and marketing arrangements.

 

Martin.

[Penlan]

Well done to Peco and EMGS, I hadn't picked up on this before, but having made all sorts of EM gauge track and points for the last 55 years.
Any more work to be done on the layout (and there is some), then this sounds to be just the job.
I look forward to seeing the products.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Penlan

[Gt.Shefford]

In answer to the question on sleeper thickness this is 0.5 mm thicker than the standard - this was driven by manufacturing considerations. 

 

Could you be more specific as there are currently two well established standard sleeper thicknesses, 0.8mm and 1.5mm. I might be missing something but won't this result in a non-standard product thus lacking compatibility with other manufacturers products (C&L, SMP, or Exactoscale, etc)  

 

Jonathan

[Enterprisingwestern]

For Sale.

One Hairshirt.

 

Mike.

[polybear]

 If I was able to easily pick up a couple of points and some plain lengths then I'd be able to build a little section and see if it worked for me and then probably, if it did, would want to expand and explore, at which point society membership opens a lot more doors.

 

I'd suggest first converting some stock and an easy loco to EM to see if EM is for you.  Plonking down a piece of track and a B6 is the easy bit (not that stock conversion need necessarily be hard)

[Siberian Snooper]

Could you be more specific as there are currently two well established standard sleeper thicknesses, 0.8mm and 1.5mm. I might be missing something but won't this result in a non-standard product thus lacking compatibility with other manufacturers products (C&L, SMP, or Exactoscale, etc)  

 

Jonathan

It's easy enough to put some packing under one or the other to bring the rail tops level, so long as the last couple of inches are level you won't get any rocking.

[martin_wynne]

It's easy enough to put some packing under one or the other to bring the rail tops level

 

Indeed. Reading this topic we seem to be seeing a culture clash between consumer and model-maker. See also: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/138904-the-end-of-model-making/

Edited November 6, 2018 by martin_wynne

[JohnR]

For goodness sake. Here is a smashing and enabling new announcement, offering an easier route for the 4mm community to lay scale-gauge track (or at least a lot closer than OO), where a forward-thinking society is putting its members’ money where their mouth is by working with a leading and respected manufacturer - and we have pages of doubts about whether it is fair, whether societies are worth joining, and why it needs to be in the (few remaining) high street shops to be a success.

 

Some people really do have a glass that is only ever half empty, not half full.

 

You have misunderstood my point. My thinking (and no one has challenged this) is that making the product available to a wider audience to buy will increase sales, returning the investment sooner (making a return on the investment?) and will also expose more modellers to EM. At the moment it seems that in order to buy it, you need to express an interest in the first place by actually visiting their stand. Yet how many modellers have done something different (different scale, different era, different region) simply on the basis of having seen a nice example of X in the shops? 

 

At the moment, people will only buy this if they seek it out. Yet the potential market is so much bigger than that. Possibly including people who dont even know what EM is. If the society wants EM to continue to be a niche product, and that this RTR track will make their members lives easier, and thats all they want, then fine, thats their prerogative. I'm just suggesting ways it could be much much more. Its not glass half full or half empty. Its about filling the glass as much as possible. 

[martin_wynne]

If I was able to easily pick up a couple of points and some plain lengths then I'd be able to build a little section and see if it worked for me

 

Ready-to-lay EM track and pointwork has been hanging up in a model shop in Sheffield for half a century, and available by mail order.

 

Unfortunately, Marcway's web domain name expired 2 days ago, so there is not much point in posting the link: http://www.marcway.net

 

Perhaps someone who knows them could let them know it needs renewing?

 

Martin.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

At the moment, people will only buy this if they seek it out. 

 

Isn't that very much the case for "finescale modelling" in all it's variations? The printed media focus very much on RTR products in their reviews. The small suppliers often find that magazine advertising is uneconomic. Those high street shops still in existence don't, for a variety of reasons, carry very much outside of the mainstream ranges, and then only if it is available through a major supplier/wholesaler. Further, my experience of local model shops is that they reflect their customer base and the staff know very little about modelling beyond the products they supply.

 

So the EMGS, having invested time and money in this project, will have to find the "best" way to proceed. Initially their sales policy would seem to be sensible, until they can see how the media react and supports their efforts. Do they want to become a major wholesaler to high street shops? Will the online discount houses, where so many 00 products are sold, show any interest?  Will the retailers want to carry the stock and deal with the questions of how to convert locos and stock? Will any clubs, faced with an easy to lay, albeit restricted range of track, have a go at an EM layout by way of a change?

 

That all requires a sea change in a lot of peoples views, attitudes and business practices. Hopefully it will be positive for the EMGS.

[Gt.Shefford]

Putting two and two together, Post #57 refers to 0.8mm sleepers, so adding the 0.5mm referenced in post #74 you arrive at a total sleeper thickness of 1.3mm.  So we now have Medium timbers to add to the established standard

 

It's easy enough to put some packing under one or the other to bring the rail tops level, so long as the last couple of inches are level you won't get any rocking.

 

True, you could shim the points up by 0.2mm in order to achieve compatibility with Exactoscale's FastTrack bases, or the thick (0.5mm) ply sleepers sold by C&L, but it just seems unnecessary, especially for a band new product.

 

Jonathan 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'd suggest first converting some stock and an easy loco to EM to see if EM is for you.  Plonking down a piece of track and a B6 is the easy bit (not that stock conversion need necessarily be hard)

 

Very sensible.

 

As we know, diesel/electric models are easy to do using drop-in wheelsets (when available). Perhaps worth the EMGS putting together some kits to convert easily some of the simpler/more common steam locos: e.g. Jinty, Pannier. I note what some have said about pushing out the wheels on Bachmann products but presumably one needs to modify the chassis a bit to prevent excess wobble.

 

In all though, anyone who has been as EMGS member will know that the Society Shop already has an amazing range of products available. It's not that difficult (even for me) to put together an etched chassis to put under a proprietary loco body.

 

The existence of this rtl track should help boost sales of other Society products enormously.

[MartinWales]

Similar, although I think the concept is slightly different to the 2mmFS easi-trac and a 16 tonner pack, particularly as I'd suggest Society membership as part of the deal. I'd see the EMGS equivalent being a bigger bundle of stuff (not just in terms of scale), sort of a "here's a kick start to getting your EM layout up and running". Although how viable that is depends on pricing of course.

I have in the past at EMGS meetings suggested a similar course of action and used the 2mm bits as a sort of template if you want, but I do like the general concept that you allude to Mark, and I think if marketed correctly with care, it should be successful 

[MartinWales]

You have misunderstood my point. My thinking (and no one has challenged this) is that making the product available to a wider audience to buy will increase sales, returning the investment sooner (making a return on the investment?) and will also expose more modellers to EM. At the moment it seems that in order to buy it, you need to express an interest in the first place by actually visiting their stand. Yet how many modellers have done something different (different scale, different era, different region) simply on the basis of having seen a nice example of X in the shops? 

 

At the moment, people will only buy this if they seek it out. Yet the potential market is so much bigger than that. Possibly including people who dont even know what EM is. If the society wants EM to continue to be a niche product, and that this RTR track will make their members lives easier, and thats all they want, then fine, thats their prerogative. I'm just suggesting ways it could be much much more. Its not glass half full or half empty. Its about filling the glass as much as possible. 

As previously alluded to earlier in this thread, if the general public wish to avail themselves of this product, then they can get to an Expo event where admission gives them day membership of the society, thus enabling them to purchase the products described.   As to being available to a wider audience, I think we made need to see how successful and how quick the items sell once available.

[polybear]

Very sensible.

 

As we know, diesel/electric models are easy to do using drop-in wheelsets (when available). Perhaps worth the EMGS putting together some kits to convert easily some of the simpler/more common steam locos: e.g. Jinty, Pannier. I note what some have said about pushing out the wheels on Bachmann products but presumably one needs to modify the chassis a bit to prevent excess wobble.

 

In all though, anyone who has been as EMGS member will know that the Society Shop already has an amazing range of products available. It's not that difficult (even for me) to put together an etched chassis to put under a proprietary loco body.

 

The existence of this rtl track should help boost sales of other Society products enormously.

 The EMGS are already onto it ; from the Stores pages:

 

Loco Conversion Packs

The loco conversion packs will be added soon.

Please check back soon.

Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause

 

- There are 30 EM conversion packs listed, with another 27 in P4.  Covering Steam and Diesel - Class 08, Jinty, Pannier right up to a Robinson 04.  My guess is that they are the Alan Gibson wheel packs etc.

[MartinWales]

As someone who doesn't live in the UK, and even I am sure for many who do live in the UK but who find those exhibitions inconvenient either due to location or time commitment, that doesn't help at all.

 

But no where near as convenient, whether it be dropping in to the local shop if you still have one or the ability to add something to an existing order to save on shipping costs.

 

Not to mention the biggest negative, the fact that it isn't just the cost of joining the society to get started but that you then need to commit to remaining a member (or periodically rejoining) if you ever need just one more piece of track.  In essence, while perhaps unfair, having to be a member of the EMGS in order to purchase EM track becomes an EM "tax" and to be blunt it will cause a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in EM to remain with standard OO, thus costing the EMGS sales of track and reducing the possibility of EM becoming popular enough that rolling stock manufacturers are forced to take notice

 

Thanks, but I will skip it.

Having myself modelled in EM for 20+ years AND been in exactly the same situation as you refer to I think the comments about an EM 'tax' is faintly ridiculous. If you are committed to a certain layout plan, you will probably have an idea of how much track is actually needed. In these certain economic times where model shops may be closing (one nearest to me went in 2001!) and if you are working to a wider gauge than standard 00, then a measure of stocking up on certain items may be a necessity rather than luxury. 

 

And the cost of membership is relatively cheap considering the economies made by purchasing items made available at competitive prices, not to mention the vast wealth of experienced demostrators which may be there (some well known...)who are happy enough to disburse their 'trade secrets'.

 

But then, as you say you live overseas, I take it that you have never been to an Expo event, an AGM or a Workshop event? 

[Jub45565]

But then, as you say you live overseas, I take it that you have never been to an Expo event, an AGM or a Workshop event?

One thing that a lot of people seem to ignore/forget, is that you can gain from such Expos, AGMs & events without attending. For example, the fact this track is being developed is the result of various discussions, people asking 'what if' questions and tackling certain questions head on. Some of these discussions may happen anyway, but from what I see and overhear at various society (not necesarily EMGS, but the principle holds) based events they are a good breading ground for thoughts, ideas and developments which help the society members at large.

 

In this day and age, the likes of RMWeb and exhibitions are a larger source of information for people who havent heard of EM/P4 than local modelshops, unfortunate as that is in some ways - and the EMGS are advertising the fact it is becoming available. Each to their own, but there seems a bit of cutting ones noses off to spite ones face (or as is often the case these days, taking offence on other people behalf).

[Mr.S.corn78]

Good afternoon all,

 

So again with my EMGS Trade officers hat on I will to answer some of the questions that have been rasied.

 

First up to clear any misconceptions, The EM Track work is an EMGS exclusive product to the Society. Its not a general Peco product. Yes Peco have designed it to our specifications and will manufacture if for the Society but that is their involvment stops.

 

At this point I would like to take this oppertunity to publically thank Peco for all their help on this project.

 

As for where you can by the track and why not in a shop to borden the appeal, Yes that would be great BUT for various reasons which arn't for posting up on a public forum, we are only allowed to sell to Members or Day members or it opens a massive can of worms.

 

We will keep you all updated as and when we have more information to share and don't forget to pop by the EMGS stand at Warley.

 

Thanks

Simon

[Wyorin]

The issue of making the track and turnouts available to modellers overseas is an issue that I personally had not thought about. As a Board we will have to consider this matter and see whether there is a cost-effective method of achieving this. Problems are there to be solved and  not ignored.

 

I am pleased by the general tenure of comments on this this thread: there will always be detractors, that is a fact of life.

[Wyorin]

Good afternoon all,

 

So again with my EMGS Trade officers hat on I will to answer some of the questions that have been rasied.

 

First up to clear any misconceptions, The EM Track work is an EMGS exclusive product to the Society. Its not a general Peco product. Yes Peco have designed it to our specifications and will manufacture if for the Society but that is their involvment stops.

 

At this point I would like to take this oppertunity to publically thank Peco for all their help on this project.

 

As for where you can by the track and why not in a shop to borden the appeal, Yes that would be great BUT for various reasons which arn't for posting up on a public forum, we are only allowed to sell to Members or Day members or it opens a massive can of worms.

 

We will keep you all updated as and when we have more information to share and don't forget to pop by the EMGS stand at Warley.

 

Thanks

Simon

Thanks Simon for you contribution. Further to my previous post, as Simon has just said we do have to be very careful where we sell this product.