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CloggyDog

EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts

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Dave

 

Unless (as usual) I missed something buffer lock was not an issue, using an A switch saves space (22 mm), it also very slightly increases the minimum radii within the turnout. I don't think you will ever get agreement on what is the best size and as for what size to do next !!

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Also, the EMGS track plans have been a pair of B6 turnouts, a B6 double slip anda B5 crossing for as long as I can remember; probably since I first joined in 1976. I think my layout looks good with them, acceptable end throw with no buffer locking, short enough to fit quite complex S&C in a smallish place, and work with prototype adjacent track spacings.

 

Your EMGS long service award gives me great confidence that these points will more than suffice for what I'm up to.

 

Not meaning to offend anyone, but the number of people who can look at a turnout and tell if it has an A, B or C switch is very small

 

In defence of the society, what ever size they chose would be wrong for some

 

Also most modellers chose the size they use by what is available, those that don't tend to build their own

 

These are good points, well made.  (I'm so smug about this comment, PECO you're welcome to use it as a marketing slogan, my normal fee applies).  :angel:

 

Many of the points on my railway Wharfeside use the EMGS templates and are B6 or derivatives i.e. curved, 3 way etc and I don't get bufferlock or problems with Mk1 coaches so to me they are okay for a model railway.

 

Dave Franks.

 

This is further buffering my confidence to make the switch.

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Not meaning to offend anyone, but the number of people who can look at a turnout and tell if it has an A, B or C switch is very small

 

vet: "I thought you said "dog" on the phone."

 

client: "No, he's a frog not a dog."

 

vet: "Yes, I noticed the difference straight away."

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Not meaning to offend anyone, but the number of people who can look at a turnout and tell if it has an A, B or C switch is very small.

I had a boss who was forever banging on about a “CV nine and a quarter”. Yeah, right.

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But it doesn't "look" right in a running line. Building crossovers and junctions using "A" switches makes them look like toy track, or as if you are running express passenger trains through the goods yard.

 

If you want the shortest turnouts with the easiest radii, it would be better to abandon the REA geometry and use old-style straight switches. A 12ft straight switch has the same deflection angle as a "B" switch, but creates shorter sub-natural turnouts with easier radii. Model switches using the old straight-switch geometry could be built as flexible switches instead of loose-heel. The old pre-grouping designs offered greater design flexibility than REA, as is evident from the complex pointwork seen in old photos. The REA designs were introduced after grouping to unify the many different pre-group designs in use, but in the process a lot of the design flexibility was lost.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

I think a degree of reality needs to be injected here.  In the real world the CB, B, CA and A bullhead switches are all limited to 15 mph on the turnout.  So it really does not matter what you do!

 

Quite frankly a modern FB transitioned crossover does not look right either but permanent way designers don't change the geometry just to make it look good!

 

We are in the world of toy trains where anything goes.  EMGS are not learning from the supermarkets!  Why incure more production costs in rail, plastic and a bigger box when it is all unessesary to achieve the required specification for the model?  It might seem trivial but like the supermarkets when you multiply by the number you are selling the cost can be significant.

 

It was once put to me that if you are going to go to all the trouble of building track and rewheeling your collection of rolling stock for EM why not bite the bullet and go for P4?  At least we have the wide range of turnout kits available from Exactoscale.

 

To answer a few points that have been made in this thread:

 

FB A switches are/were used in the main running lines at Kings Cross for the electrification scheme.

B Switches are no longer permitted in running lines without good reason.

EM Gauge check chairs are available from Exactoscale.

 

The most commonly used turnout by the Big Four and BR up to about 1968 in both BH and FB versions was the C10 by a long way.  A C10 kit for P4 is available from Exactoscale and I have six of them on my layout.  Admittedly no one in their right mind would sponsor an RTR version. 

 

As an experienced P4 modeller of some 14 years, to all those who are contemplating a change to EM or P4 I would say don't.  O Gauge is a far better option when considering all the recently introduced RTR rolling stock.  

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There is actually a world of difference between EM and P4. EM is really just wider OO. It looks better regarding the gauge but still has large flanges, wide tread and generous check rail gaps. However because of this it doesn't really need compensation so conversion is relatively easy.

 

Having modelled P4 for over 30 years I have not found it difficult provided you follow the basic guidelines key to which is very careful setting of back to back and compensating anything with a wheelbase longer than about 25mm. However I do have an old Lima GWR railcar with drop in Exactoscale wheelsets that seems to negotiate my hand built B6 turnouts ok and some rigid Harrow/Radley Underground cars.

 

This is not to promote P4 over EM but is to caution those with extensive OO stock that there is much more involved in changing to P4. I did not have significant investment in OO and was able to sell my layout and basically make a fresh start. Wheels and track components do cost the same in either gauge but there is the added cost in money and time of fitting rocking axles to 4 wheel wagons and most coaches. Worth it in my opinion but one of the finest models in the UK, Pendon, has been EM since conception.

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Jeff

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head, providing you can build all the parts of a layout to a good to a very good standard, P4 is now buildable by non scratch builders. But the cost of conversion of large collections may be prohibitive, also parts could also be harder to source

 

On the other hand EM gauge is far more forgiving, a bit easier to build/convert and less expensive owing to the fact that many items can be reused once they have been regauged.

 

As for the previous reply about size of turnouts, many are limited by their available space irrespective of gauge, compromises in all scales and gauges are normally required

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With all the talk about comparison between the gauges perhaps it might be handy to mention for those that are unaware, and particularly if you are challenged on the space front, that as the gauge width increases so does the length of pointwork. Individually it isn't massive, but as with many things it all adds up when multiple items are involved. Just something to bear in mind when making judgement calls as to whether moving to a wider gauge is for you.

 

Here is a comparison image generated in Templot.

 

post-12706-0-65901900-1542964291.jpg

 

As far as Pendon goes I believe they use their own wheel standards - they are often referred to as such - which are a cross between the normal OO/EM profile and P4. I think some commercial wheelsets use similar/the same standards these days.

 

Izzy

 

 

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With all the talk about comparison between the gauges perhaps it might be handy to mention for those that are unaware, and particularly if you are challenged on the space front, that as the gauge width increases so does the length of pointwork. Individually it isn't massive, but as with many things it all adds up when multiple items are involved. Just something to bear in mind when making judgement calls as to whether moving to a wider gauge is for you.

 

Here is a comparison image generated in Templot.

 

attachicon.gifb6_4mm_gauge_size_comparison1 copy.jpg

 

As far as Pendon goes I believe they use their own wheel standards - they are often referred to as such - which are a cross between the normal OO/EM profile and P4. I think some commercial wheelsets use similar/the same standards these days.

 

Izzy

 

 

I may be mistaken but the early modelling used the older 18mm gauge, Have an idea the Vale scene now uses 18.2 mm

Edited by hayfield

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Looking at my EMGS pack I see that the supplied templates for complete turnouts are for A5, B6 and B7 with B8 as part of the 3-ways.

 

Perhaps they chose B6 as the Goldilocks points from their templates.

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To answer the questions about pricing, I just saw an announcement on my Facebook page - points will be £27 each and yard lengths of track will be £5 each from EMGS. That seems to be about on a par with the Peco 00 bullhead track.

 

post-27155-0-35796000-1543075955_thumb.png

 

(Hope it's ok to reproduce the Facebook announcement here)

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To answer the questions about pricing, I just saw an announcement on my Facebook page - points will be £27 each and yard lengths of track will be £5 each from EMGS. That seems to be about on a par with the Peco 00 bullhead track.

 

IMG_5480.PNG

 

(Hope it's ok to reproduce the Facebook announcement here)

Hi,

Yes those prices are correct and you have saved me having to type it all out again.

 

We are very happy with the track and as you can see the points are quite nice too.

 

There are a few tweaks to be made to various bits, two of which are removing the spring from the point which in turn means the tie bar can be made thinner.

 

Thank you for all the interest that people have shown both on here and at the show today.

 

Sorry for the brief and possibly uncohiernt message but it’s been a long day at the show and it’s time to hit the pub/restaurant.

 

Thanks

Simon

EMGs Trade officer.

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£27 seems fair for the points.  I lke the look of the range.  Another manufacturer namely Accurascale with its new Deltic could also fuel interest in EM with their new loco being available in 00, EM or P4 like the SLW 24.

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All I can say is jolly well done to the EMGS and Peco. I am in that position of just having a couple of locos(M7, H, Helljian 33/2) and a couple of coaches and a couple of parkside kits(unmade). As yet no layout but have always liked the thought of EM. I even have a C&L point kit in a bag for EM. So this announcement is music to my ears. I am also a lapsed member of the society but have the manual etc. So yes I will rejoin to access the track and will start to look at conversion kits etc.

 

I can see the reason behind the selling etc and the requirements of HMRC and as above will rejoin the society. As has happened in the RTR market Kernow models got Bachmann to produce the Thumper unit as an exclusive model. Over a time period this is now a mainstream Bachmann model.  Maybe over time the EMGS will be gauging(no pun intended) the size of the potential market. The society may then look at the alternatives for sales. One option would be a sales company as already mentioned. Another option could be that Peco become a corporate member of the society and therefore buy the track etc for accounting purposes and then resell but only through there website. 

 

Keith 

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How about a sales stand at a few more regional Model Railway shows as part of the society stand. Hint hint Bristol(Thornbury just down the road) in May Please.................................................

 

Keith

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How about a sales stand at a few more regional Model Railway shows as part of the society stand. Hint hint Bristol(Thornbury just down the road) in May Please.................................................

 

Keith

 

The society can sell to the public at their own shows as everyone visiting effectively becomes a day member. This isn't the case at other shows.

 

Of course they could have a society stand at the show and allow members to collect things to save postage, but that becomes a faff for the sales team - and I suspect the angle aimed at isn't from a member saving postage, but another none member who wants access to the products... just join!

 

(apologies if I am wrong, but judging by the flow of this topic and the wording of the question I added 2+2 to get..?)

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The society can sell to the public at their own shows as everyone visiting effectively becomes a day member. This isn't the case at other shows.

 

Of course they could have a society stand at the show and allow members to collect things to save postage, but that becomes a faff for the sales team - and I suspect the angle aimed at isn't from a member saving postage, but another none member who wants access to the products... just join!

 

(apologies if I am wrong, but judging by the flow of this topic and the wording of the question I added 2+2 to get..?)

 

Sorry Pete just a tongue in cheek thought. I will be rejoining the society anyway. Just now waiting to see a mainstream RTR manufacture offering fitted EM wheel sets or even Peco doing so with there wagon ranges.

 

Keith 

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Sorry Pete just a tongue in cheek thought. I will be rejoining the society anyway. Just now waiting to see a mainstream RTR manufacture offering fitted EM wheel sets or even Peco doing so with there wagon ranges.

 

Keith 

For a mainstream manufacturer (and their stockists) to offer fitted wheelsets in two different gauges would be a logistical nightmare. Stock holding levels would need to increase and there would inevitably be people who buy the wrong one for their layout.

 

Some sort of exchange arrangement where the EM modeller buys extra axles, fits them himself, and then takes back the unwanted 00 axles might work.

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To answer the questions about pricing, I just saw an announcement on my Facebook page - points will be £27 each and yard lengths of track will be £5 each from EMGS. That seems to be about on a par with the Peco 00 bullhead track.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_5480.PNG

 

(Hope it's ok to reproduce the Facebook announcement here)

 

Do we have a likely date for availability?

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For a mainstream manufacturer (and their stockists) to offer fitted wheelsets in two different gauges would be a logistical nightmare. Stock holding levels would need to increase and there would inevitably be people who buy the wrong one for their layout.

 

Some sort of exchange arrangement where the EM modeller buys extra axles, fits them himself, and then takes back the unwanted 00 axles might work.

In which case why not supply the wheels and bearings as a separate pack to be selected at time of purchase? Reduced stock holding, etc.

 

On the other hand, the manufacturer might not want to risk warranty claims where the purchaser has not been able to fit the wheel set or damaged the model in so doing.

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For a mainstream manufacturer (and their stockists) to offer fitted wheelsets in two different gauges would be a logistical nightmare. Stock holding levels would need to increase and there would inevitably be people who buy the wrong one for their layout.

 

Some sort of exchange arrangement where the EM modeller buys extra axles, fits them himself, and then takes back the unwanted 00 axles might work.

 

:no:

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How about a sales stand at a few more regional Model Railway shows as part of the society stand. Hint hint Bristol(Thornbury just down the road) in May Please.................................................

 

Keith

 

Keith

 

In someways its a great question as items becoming more widely available could further promote the gauge/society and would be a benefit to many modellers who for whatever reason do not want to commit to being a member. As stated in an earlier reply legal reasons prevent sales to non members, then there would be a logistical problems with stock as the stores manager is a volunteer doing the job in his spare time

 

I know my local model shop has stated that they would be interested in selling these items, however unless someone comes up with a legal solution this will not happen

 

On the brighter side looking at the proposed prices, the cost of a turnout verses the price of an unbuilt kit the first turnout will pay for membership and that is not taking  the build time into consideration

Edited by hayfield

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For a mainstream manufacturer (and their stockists) to offer fitted wheelsets in two different gauges would be a logistical nightmare. Stock holding levels would need to increase and there would inevitably be people who buy the wrong one for their layout.

 

Some sort of exchange arrangement where the EM modeller buys extra axles, fits them himself, and then takes back the unwanted 00 axles might work.

 

Hi Joseph I am thinking along the lines of SLW and accuscale. I can see Bachmann just tipping there toes in with just one or two wagons or coaches. For my self I do not see a problem with converting my limited stock. However we may see a growth in the near future of model converters much in the same vein as DCC/sound fitting and weathering applications.

 

I think I saw back in the thread May as potential date for delivery.

 

Keith

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Hi Joseph I am thinking along the lines of SLW and accuscale. I can see Bachmann just tipping there toes in with just one or two wagons or coaches. For my self I do not see a problem with converting my limited stock. However we may see a growth in the near future of model converters much in the same vein as DCC/sound fitting and weathering applications.

 

I think I saw back in the thread May as potential date for delivery.

 

Keith

It is probable that much of the RTR stock already in production doesn't lend itself to fitting EM wheels without some modification for clearance. That may be beyond what many would be willing/able to do

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It is probable that much of the RTR stock already in production doesn't lend itself to fitting EM wheels without some modification for clearance. That may be beyond what many would be willing/able to do

I've not failed to convert anything so far.

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