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CloggyDog

EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts

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Hi,

Subject to the postal system it is hoped to have one of the points and a small section of the plain track at the show.

 

The small section of plain track is due to Royal Mail wanting an arm, leg and several other organs to post the yard length.

 

Thanks

 

 

I do wonder if it wouldn't be more sensible for track to be made in a slightly more 'mail order friendly' length, a yard or a meter is OK, but would it really matter if it was sold in 850mm lengths to allow cheaper/easier postage? From the Royal Mail website: 

 

 

 

Tubes

For tube-shaped items, the length of the item plus twice the diameter must not exceed 104cm, with the greatest dimension being no more than 90cm.

 

 

Jon

 

 

As most BH track was aid in panels (usually 60ft in later years, AFAIK) would a multiple of that scale length be sensible. Three panels would be 720mm, 28.4", which is also the same as four early  45ft panels. As EM track standards are about being a bit more realistic, then adopting prototype lengths might seem logical if it makes for easier packaging and delivery.

 

 

I would have thought the solution is quite simple as there are several options available which I thought would be standard for those modelling EM gauge, 

 

1  Buy a stock of rail in yard lengths and buy the track panels without rails and thread it yourself

 

2 If building the track in either 45' or 60' panels supply the rail in precut lengths of 180mm or 240mm lengths, or multiples of. I think rail is available in 500mm lengths anyway via post

 

3  However if we must have rail in 1 m lengths then use My Hermes (I was once one of their fiercest critics, but they seem to have got much better in the last year), drop off points are close or they will pick up parcels, their maximum size is

 

https://www.myhermes.co.uk/help/parcel-size.html#helppage

 

A C&L track box measures 10 cm x 5cm x 102 cm = volume 132cm, No idea of the weight of a box of track

 

Where is the problem or am I missing something?

 

As for a demo piece why not send a set of track panels and ask the stand attendants to supply the rail, I would have thought one at least would have either a supply of rail or access to a couple of lengths

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I do wonder if it wouldn't be more sensible for track to be made in a slightly more 'mail order friendly' length, a yard or a meter is OK, but would it really matter if it was sold in 850mm lengths to allow cheaper/easier postage? From the Royal Mail website: 

 

 

 

Tubes

For tube-shaped items, the length of the item plus twice the diameter must not exceed 104cm, with the greatest dimension being no more than 90cm.

 

 

Jon

Hi,

 

As easy at it sounds to have the track in shorter lenghts would incure extra cost to the society and the customer as it would be a non standard rail length.

 

To use the tube posting rates the track would need to be in a tube, again added cost to the society and extra work for the trade officer having to unpack and repack.

Thanks

Simon

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Posted (edited)

As most BH track was aid in panels (usually 60ft in later years, AFAIK) would a multiple of that scale length be sensible. Three panels would be 720mm, 28.4", which is also the same as four early 45ft panels. As EM track standards are about being a bit more realistic, then adopting prototype lengths might seem logical if it makes for easier packaging and delivery.

From an earlier reply to my question on the subject, Simon says there are exactly 3 1/2 panels on a piece of track which comes out at 840mm.

The remaining 75mm or so is left bare - consider that extra 3" a bonus for the construction of checkrails and suchlike :)

 

Maybe the EMGS could run a competition for the most imaginative use of the extra bit of rail.

Edited by sharris

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Hi,

 

As easy at it sounds to have the track in shorter lenghts would incure extra cost to the society and the customer as it would be a non standard rail length.

 

To use the tube posting rates the track would need to be in a tube, again added cost to the society and extra work for the trade officer having to unpack and repack.

Thanks

Simon

 

But the rail is presumably being rolled especially to be model railway track, its not some other commodity that is being re-purposed, so presumably at some point in the production process someone somewhere makes a decision to set the machine to cut at 1m or 1 yard, and could just as easily cut at 0.75 (or some other value).

 

I'm suggesting that the postage savings overall *might* make such a thing more economical. In my 'New Economic Model for the Distribution of Flexitrack by Royal Mail' (hereafter known as NEMftDoFbRM - the acronym might need a bit of work) the suppliers might also need to invest in a new standard box - which might still be cheaper.

 

The EMGS (a fairly conservative lot) have managed to persuade PECO ( a VERY conservative lot) to do something different and think outside the box - having done that, why not think about the box as well, its only been a metre or a yard because 'that's what its always been' it would be logical for the 'standard length of finescale track to be some multiple used on the prototype so 4x 45ft or 3x60ft both reach 180ft ie. 720mm in 4mm, and that length doesn't incur extra charges to post, why not?

 

Jon

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Posted (edited)

Peco 00 traditional streamline and Peco 00 Bullhead are in 914mm (3') lengths.

 

As this is being made on Peco equipment, it makes sense to have it that length as that's what their (or their supplier's) rail cutters are set to produce- retooling the rail cutters might end up making it more expensive than the postage saving for a shorter length.

Edited by sharris

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re the earlier comment on Hermes Couriers - i agree things do seem to have improved.  some good news for a change....

 

but I like the idea of 45ft and 60ft rail so you could make up your own panels but pre made would be a real boon.


scale 45 and 60ft!

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If we are talking about retail, then the retailer should adapt to what the consumer requires, however being a society stores facility being run in a members spare time normal retail practices are sometimes not practicable. As is I guess supplying a product in various sizes/formats etc.

 

The rail arrives ready built in standard lengths and to maintain the price competitiveness that is how it stays. Therefore the solution is to use a carrier which accepts the items. Simple solution which require not much alteration to the standard operating method

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It's a fact that there is no such thing as Free Postage, even though this claim is made sometimes by various Companies, it's just that the cost is "hidden" in the price. You just have to accept that it costs to move stuff around the globe and the bigger and more awkward it is the more it costs. Shorter lengths cost more to produce (somebody has to cut it), so it's a trade-off between cost of shipment, cost of production, and to a much lesser extent, ease of use. It should therefore come as no surprise that it is the same length as Peco's other flexible track and rail etc. Anything else is likely to have a cost implication.

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Posted (edited)

Gents

 

We seem to be talking semantics here, and ending up becoming a somewhat circular argument!

 

The coming availability of said track, coupled with pointwork, available at society events to EMGS members, disbursed by a Trade Officer, who runs a society stores function in his spare time .

 

I myself due to geographical remoteness for the hub of the UK, manage to get to major Society events (see location on avatar!)

 

Let's look at this as a fantastic ground floor opportunity to enable modellers to quickly move into finescale modelling, removing a major obstacle to further their modelling!

Edited by MartinWales
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Posted (edited)

disbursed

(Sniggers)

 

So we'll be payed to take this trackwork of off the Societies hands?

 

P

 

(Edit) Whoops spelling!

Edited by Porcy Mane

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Hi,

 

As easy at it sounds to have the track in shorter lenghts would incure extra cost to the society and the customer as it would be a non standard rail length.

 

To use the tube posting rates the track would need to be in a tube, again added cost to the society and extra work for the trade officer having to unpack and repack.

Thanks

Simon

 

But this problem of Royal Mail (and others) not liking yard lengths is not unique to EMGS. Any retailer who sends out Peco Streamline would be very happy with 72cm length as standard. So perhaps worth Peco making what would be a fairly simple change.

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re the earlier comment on Hermes Couriers - i agree things do seem to have improved.  some good news for a change....

 

but I like the idea of 45ft and 60ft rail so you could make up your own panels but pre made would be a real boon.

scale 45 and 60ft!

Would it not be better to have the longer lengths as produced and fit dummy fishplates and razor cut a slot in the top of the rail to keep the rail in the longer length and be easier and better for laying?

 

Best of both worlds, looks correct and keeps the rail transitions (dummy ones) smoother on curves.

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(Sniggers)

 

So we'll be payed to take this trackwork of the Societies hands?

 

P

Oi! You at the back, behave! :jester:

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But this problem of Royal Mail (and others) not liking yard lengths is not unique to EMGS. Any retailer who sends out Peco Streamline would be very happy with 72cm length as standard. So perhaps worth Peco making what would be a fairly simple change.

 

...and no doubt keeping the piece and pack price the same.

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:scratchhead:    Ok, so I may be way off course here, but I just went to Hatton's website, placed a 25 piece box of Peco code 75 OO flex track in the shopping cart. The postage shown, from Hattons to a Central UK address, is £4. To my address, in the US, it would be £15.

 

Wouldn't the costs for the EM track from the Society be similar?

 

Jim F

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:scratchhead:    Ok, so I may be way off course here, but I just went to Hatton's website, placed a 25 piece box of Peco code 75 OO flex track in the shopping cart. The postage shown, from Hattons to a Central UK address, is £4. To my address, in the US, it would be £15.

 

Wouldn't the costs for the EM track from the Society be similar?

 

Jim F

 

 

You could order a packet of fishplates or an elephant from Hattons (subject to stock levels*  ) and they would charge you the same £4, the cost to Hattons will vary wildly, but presumably they have worked out that on average charging £4 will cover their costs (and the simplification of a single P&P price will have its own modest cost saving.

 

I imagine a lot of first timer EM gauge layout builders are not going to start with a track plan that need 25 yards/meters of track, therefore someone is going to be breaking up Peco's boxes into smaller units to send out, I also imagine that because there is a break point at the dimensions Royal Mail specify, there is a greater choice of packaging supplier, than 1m long boxes for model railway track, so I assume its likely to be cheaper. In using a pack suitable for RM whoever from the EMGS has to do all this mucking about would have the CHOICE of using RM or AN.Other couriers.

 

Jon

 

Jon

*elephants are easy to pile high, but difficult to sell cheap, its why you never see them in Hattons adverts :blum:

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:scratchhead:    Ok, so I may be way off course here, but I just went to Hatton's website, placed a 25 piece box of Peco code 75 OO flex track in the shopping cart. The postage shown, from Hattons to a Central UK address, is £4. To my address, in the US, it would be £15.

 

Wouldn't the costs for the EM track from the Society be similar?

 

Jim F

 

I think Hattons have a standard charge of £4 whether you have something that goes in an envelope or a big cardboard box.

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:scratchhead:    Ok, so I may be way off course here, but I just went to Hatton's website, placed a 25 piece box of Peco code 75 OO flex track in the shopping cart. The postage shown, from Hattons to a Central UK address, is £4. To my address, in the US, it would be £15.

 

Wouldn't the costs for the EM track from the Society be similar?

 

Jim F

HI Jim,

 

The way most shops work out the postage is an average cost of posting things. So for example you may send one parcel that costs £3.00 and one £4.50 but you charge both at £4.00. The extra from the £3.00 goes to cover the extra on the £4.50 one.

 

The amount of parcels hattons will send in a day will mean that the postage should equal out including the cost of the packing materials.

 

When your sending as many parcels as Hattons does in a day then the postage cost will balance out. Plus im sure they will have an account which can also provide cheaper rates.

 

Just to clarify, the track is made in yard lengths and that how it is being sold for UK members. For over seas members is still being looked at and they can contact the Trade officer to discuss.

 

If any body wishes to have track made in shorter lengths then please apporach Peco with a 5 figure sum of money and im sure they will make you some.

 

Thanks

Simon

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Posted (edited)

You could order a packet of fishplates or an elephant from Hattons (subject to stock levels*  ) 

*elephants are easy to pile high, but difficult to sell cheap, its why you never see them in Hattons adverts :blum:

 

Crickey!

 

I knew Hattons plans for world domination included them becoming the UK's Model Railway equivalent of Sports Direct but didn't realise they had ambitions to supply exotic pets too.

 

Good job my niece didn't know this. She'd have screamed the house down to get an elephant for Christmas.

 

Track sent by Clacks anybody?

Edited by Porcy Mane

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I think Hattons have a standard charge of £4 whether you have something that goes in an envelope or a big cardboard box.

 

Except for certain small items where they charge £2.

Bernard

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You could order ... an elephant from Hattons

For the eating of, I presume (see Falcon Brassworks thread).

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Alright, using Hatton's was not a good choice, but was easier than trying to calculate via the Royal Mail website.

 

But my point was, for all the comments about how Peco should revise it's methods, or maybe the Society should find some volunteers to cut the track into mail friendly lengths, has anyone actually calculated out what it would cost them for postage to buy some of the track?

 

Or again, are folks just enjoying finding negatives?

 

Jim F

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Alright, using Hatton's was not a good choice, but was easier than trying to calculate via the Royal Mail website.

 

But my point was, for all the comments about how Peco should revise it's methods, or maybe the Society should find some volunteers to cut the track into mail friendly lengths, has anyone actually calculated out what it would cost them for postage to buy some of the track?

 

Or again, are folks just enjoying finding negatives?

 

Jim F

 

 

Jim, I'm not trying to find negatives, I'm trying to offer positive suggestions to make it easier and cheaper for the EMGS, its membership and (most importantly IMHO) whoever is going to actually do the postage for them. Taking PECO manufactured product and then cutting it down would be really dumb in that light, but setting up with PECO to start from scratch from a different place shouldn't be difficult, but the only reason not to do that which seems to have been offered is 'its always done like this' and I'm simply challenging that assertion.

 

I DON'T accept the argument that PECO's machines can only cut 1m, they do all sorts of lengths, and I'm pretty sure its with done with one machine (or maybe a few similar for capacity reasons) how else would you make the shorter settrack pieces, not just the straights, but the different lengths for inner and outer rails on curves. Is there a 'how do they make that? ' program on making (commercial) model railway track? I assume that the rail all arrives at PECO on a big drum and they both straighten it out and shear it to length internally, unlike C&L who DO get a pack of thousands of 1m lengths (but presumably because Phil asks for that) .

 

Jon

Edited by jonhall

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