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EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts

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I saw this today and thought that would be fantastic and I could finally convert all my Bachmann OO stuff to EM, and have a nice little interchange with my 009 this actually looks right. then I read that it would be only available to society members. That's me means it's probably never going to get purchased by me as joining the society just to buy some track doesn't make sense. However if it was available to the general plebite like myself, then there would be a much higher chance of me; a) purchasing some and b) being more likely to join the society.

 

You won't join the society just to buy the track, but if they sell it to the general public (which they'll do at Expo EM I imagine) you're more likely to join the society? 

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Was it optional longer axles for the Dapol J94?

Yes of course it was the J94

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You won't join the society just to buy the track, but if they sell it to the general public (which they'll do at Expo EM I imagine) you're more likely to join the society? 

Would the society discount price for members with higher prices for non-members, that would make membership worthwhile

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That's me means it's probably never going to get purchased by me as joining the society just to buy some track doesn't make sense.

In the general scheme of things society membership may be an insignificant part of the price. Currently one Peco 00 Bullhead turnout costs about £25. EMGS membership costs less than one turnout. I'd expect an EM version to be a little more expensive - at least for now with it being a new product and pilot production run.

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Would the society discount price for members with higher prices for non-members, that would make membership worthwhile

 

That would be an argument for joining but if you wanted to buy it then joining the society in the first place would have the same outcome. PJ's trigger for buying the track and perhaps joining the society would be their decision to sell it to the general public. If they don't sell it to the general public he will not join the society in order to buy it.  I'm not sure what the advantage is here. I must be missing some subtlety in the argument or something.

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That would be an argument for joining but if you wanted to buy it then joining the society in the first place would have the same outcome. PJ's trigger for buying the track and perhaps joining the society would be their decision to sell it to the general public. If they don't sell it to the general public he will not join the society in order to buy it.  I'm not sure what the advantage is here. I must be missing some subtlety in the argument or something.

Discounting to members only might encourage membership, whilst non discounting to GP would ensure GP was contributing to the development/tooling costs. It might also boost membership for larger users as there would be a break even point (excuse the pun) when membership would make the overall cost cheaper

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In the general scheme of things society membership may be an insignificant part of the price. Currently one Peco 00 Bullhead turnout costs about £25. EMGS membership costs less than one turnout. I'd expect an EM version to be a little more expensive - at least for now with it being a new product and pilot production run.

Production volumes would certainly ensure prices were higher for EM as the tooling and other fixed costs costs would be amortised over smaller production volumes, thereby increasing the unit costs.

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I saw this today and thought that would be fantastic and I could finally convert all my Bachmann OO stuff to EM, and have a nice little interchange with my 009 this actually looks right. then I read that it would be only available to society members. That's me means it's probably never going to get purchased by me as joining the society just to buy some track doesn't make sense. However if it was available to the general plebite like myself, then there would be a much higher chance of me; a) purchasing some and b) being more likely to join the society.

 

According to the EM Society website the track will be available to both members & non members alike from the trade stand at EMGS Exhibitions (Bracknell in May and Manchester in September).  I would be concerned about retailing this track through the general trade without offering advice and guidance to inexperienced modellers on how best to convert proprietary stock.  The demonstration stands at EMGS events will no doubt be geared up to provide such advice.  The whole thing could back fire badly if inexperienced modellers become frustrated because they have invested in the track but then expensive stock is compromised because they can't get EM to work due to lack of appropriate skills and support.  The EMGS Manual has extensive guidance on how to convert many of the proprietary  models, is issued to all new members at no additional charge (I believe), and is regularly updated for members as new proprietary locomotives are released.  

 

Being realistic I also suspect that the EMGS has been required to commit financially to this initiative and therefore it would feel appropriate that they should have the opportunity to recoup some of their investment through control of sales.  You never know, the price the Society charges might even prove be more attractive than that from a typical retail outlet if we use other products sold through he Society as a guide.

 

As an active EM modeller of over 30 years I have never regretted converting from 00 to EM but I couldn't have done it successfully, or at least would have struggled, without the support of those with previous experience who could show me how.  The EMGS was instrumental in getting me the support I needed and I encourage those of you who might be nervous about taking the plunge to either visit an EMGS event and/or seek out support from your local EMGS area group a list of which can be found on the EMGS Web Site  http://www.emgs.org/.  

 

Happy Modelling,

 

Frank

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Discounting to members only might encourage membership, whilst non discounting to GP would ensure GP was contributing to the development/tooling costs. It might also boost membership for larger users as there would be a break even point (excuse the pun) when membership would make the overall cost cheaper

 

It would Steve, but I don't think the person whose posting I didn't understand made any overt reference to differential pricing being a factor in his thinking. 

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According to the EM Society website the track will be available to both members & non members alike from the trade stand at EMGS Exhibitions (Bracknell in May and Manchester in September).

As someone who doesn't live in the UK, and even I am sure for many who do live in the UK but who find those exhibitions inconvenient either due to location or time commitment, that doesn't help at all.

 

Being realistic I also suspect that the EMGS has been required to commit financially to this initiative and therefore it would feel appropriate that they should have the opportunity to recoup some of their investment through control of sales.  You never know, the price the Society charges might even prove be more attractive than that from a typical retail outlet if we use other products sold through he Society as a guide.

But no where near as convenient, whether it be dropping in to the local shop if you still have one or the ability to add something to an existing order to save on shipping costs.

 

Not to mention the biggest negative, the fact that it isn't just the cost of joining the society to get started but that you then need to commit to remaining a member (or periodically rejoining) if you ever need just one more piece of track.  In essence, while perhaps unfair, having to be a member of the EMGS in order to purchase EM track becomes an EM "tax" and to be blunt it will cause a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in EM to remain with standard OO, thus costing the EMGS sales of track and reducing the possibility of EM becoming popular enough that rolling stock manufacturers are forced to take notice.

 

[edited to add]

 

Oh, and it gets even better.  They are stuck in the dark ages.

 

Mail in a membership form?  Cheques only? And the cheque must be UK bank based? How quaint and how to discourage membership.

 

Thanks, but I will skip it.

Edited by mdvle

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Oh, and it gets even better. They are stuck in the dark ages.

 

Mail in a membership form? Cheques only?

Strange then how I pay my subscription by direct debit!

 

Page 2 of the membership form is a direct debit form - no cheques involved unless you really want to do it that way. For overseas transactions there's a PayPal option too.

Edited by sharris
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Looking forward to it as I've been considering going EM for a while.  The thing that has always put me off is building track for a fiddle yard so using this in non-scenic areas would be a fantastic time saver.

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Some people don't get it do they, it was the EM society that commissioned Peco to make this track to the societies spec and paid for it from the members funds so surely the members should have first dibs on purchasing it, it may well be available later to those who don't want to join a very useful society.... A society that has produced all sorts of aids to building track in EM and P4 as well as a huge folder of info on how to do it and how the convert various locos and stock, wire up your layout and even build your own controllers, need I go on..... :fool:

 

Dave.

EMGS member since 1985.

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As someone who doesn't live in the UK, and even I am sure for many who do live in the UK but who find those exhibitions inconvenient either due to location or time commitment, that doesn't help at all.

 

But no where near as convenient, whether it be dropping in to the local shop if you still have one or the ability to add something to an existing order to save on shipping costs.

 

Not to mention the biggest negative, the fact that it isn't just the cost of joining the society to get started but that you then need to commit to remaining a member (or periodically rejoining) if you ever need just one more piece of track.  In essence, while perhaps unfair, having to be a member of the EMGS in order to purchase EM track becomes an EM "tax" and to be blunt it will cause a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in EM to remain with standard OO, thus costing the EMGS sales of track and reducing the possibility of EM becoming popular enough that rolling stock manufacturers are forced to take notice.

 

[edited to add]

 

Oh, and it gets even better.  They are stuck in the dark ages.

 

Mail in a membership form?  Cheques only? And the cheque must be UK bank based? How quaint and how to discourage membership.

 

Thanks, but I will skip it.

 

Hmmm, I may regret responding to this but here goes for nothing.  

 

Please remember that the EMGS at its heart is a club even though it is registered as a business for administrative purposes.  I believe we have in the order of 2000 members world wide and it will be our membership fees that will have been used to commission Peco to make the track to promote EM modelling through the Society.   As such I don't think it is unreasonable for the volunteers who run the Society out of the goodness of their hearts to not yet have organised every payment facility under the Sun.  I also think that payment in UKP is reasonable given the volatility of our currency currently.  Why should Society members be effectively required to sponsor overseas purchases by non members? 

 

Despite my above response I promise that as a  club/society they (we) are typically a friendly bunch who regularly help each other out in the pursuit of our hobby where ever you live.  If you live abroad and are keen to convert to EM I'm guessing that if you ask nicely you may find that they/we may well be able to help you to get hold of the new track in ways other than just those listed on the website (but don't quote me on that because I am not authorised to speak on behalf of the Society, I am just a member).  After all where there is a will there is a way as the saying goes.

 

If, however, you are not inspired by this initiative and don't want to join us then so be it, and I wish you every success in your modelling pursuits.

 

Respectfully,

 

Frank

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Hmmm, I may regret responding to this but here goes for nothing.  

 

Please remember that the EMGS at its heart is a club even though it is registered as a business for administrative purposes.  I believe we have in the order of 2000 members world wide and it will be our membership fees that will have been used to commission Peco to make the track to promote EM modelling through the Society.   As such I don't think it is unreasonable for the volunteers who run the Society out of the goodness of their hearts to not yet have organised every payment facility under the Sun.  I also think that payment in UKP is reasonable given the volatility of our currency currently.  Why should Society members be effectively required to sponsor overseas purchases by non members? 

 

Despite my above response I promise that as a  club/society they (we) are typically a friendly bunch who regularly help each other out in the pursuit of our hobby where ever you live.  If you live abroad and are keen to convert to EM I'm guessing that if you ask nicely you may find that they/we may well be able to help you to get hold of the new track in ways other than just those listed on the website (but don't quote me on that because I am not authorised to speak on behalf of the Society, I am just a member).  After all where there is a will there is a way as the saying goes.

 

If, however, you are not inspired by this initiative and don't want to join us then so be it, and I wish you every success in your modelling pursuits.

 

Respectfully,

 

Frank

As a former EMGS member, I never had any trouble ordering from the UK (less VAT, plus postage) and indeed the service was excellent.

 

The EMGS has done similar arrangements in the past, with members funds paying for tooling etc.

 

I certainly see no problem in (re)joining the Society, to get any parts required and I don't see why members funds should be used to provide a margin, for other retailers to sell these new items, as they won't be stocking them for free.

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As someone who doesn't live in the UK, and even I am sure for many who do live in the UK but who find those exhibitions inconvenient either due to location or time commitment, that doesn't help at all.

 

 

But no where near as convenient, whether it be dropping in to the local shop if you still have one or the ability to add something to an existing order to save on shipping costs.

 

Not to mention the biggest negative, the fact that it isn't just the cost of joining the society to get started but that you then need to commit to remaining a member (or periodically rejoining) if you ever need just one more piece of track.  In essence, while perhaps unfair, having to be a member of the EMGS in order to purchase EM track becomes an EM "tax" and to be blunt it will cause a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in EM to remain with standard OO, thus costing the EMGS sales of track and reducing the possibility of EM becoming popular enough that rolling stock manufacturers are forced to take notice.

 

[edited to add]

 

Oh, and it gets even better.  They are stuck in the dark ages.

 

Mail in a membership form?  Cheques only? And the cheque must be UK bank based? How quaint and how to discourage membership.

 

Thanks, but I will skip it.

Seriously?

 

A private payment members only club, works with a maunufacturer to produce items for sale, privately, to members of that same club

 

As a bit of a bonus.......they allow the general public access to allow them to buy the same goods a couple of times a year........

 

Definitely a Bonus I'd say.

 

Well done to all concerned.

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This is good news regarding EM track availability.

 

Diesel conversions are easy. Putting EM wheelers into RTR locos would be ok but the gaps between the frames and the wheels looks wrong. (And some conversions I have seen do have a lot of (wheel wobble). Pushing Bachmann tender wheels out also seems a problem to some "converters".

 

RTR wagons vary from easy (flip new wheels and axles in) to those requiring a bit more scalpel surgery (Some Bachmann wagons have strengthening bars behind the axle boxes). Probably takes longer to replace the couplings.

RTR coaches..again easy to change the wheel sets.

 

So stock isn't a problem. I can't build pointwork, so I could be tempted to build a small diesel based EM layout with the track becoming available.

 

Baz

Edited by Barry O
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Mail in a membership form? Cheques only? And the cheque must be UK bank based? How quaint and how to discourage membership.

 

Did you miss or chose to ignore the option for overseas members to pay using PayPal?

 

While I'd agree to some extent, it could be made easier if there was an option to join online it does sound like you're looking for reasons not to join.

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Regarding the comments about general sales.

 

Given it's the EMGS that have been developing this as a benefit for members, why would they (we, I'm a member) give it away to non-members?

 

steve

 

I doubt they would be given away to non-members - they will no doubt be a cost. It surely wouldnt be impossible for the EMGS to give members a discount on the points and track work, thereby encouraging people to join?

 

The model shops are, quite literally, the shop window of the hobby. Having an EM gauge product in the majority of them, alongside OO pointwork, will sell the idea much more effectively, I'd have thought. 

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According to the EM Society website the track will be available to both members & non members alike from the trade stand at EMGS Exhibitions (Bracknell in May and Manchester in September).  I would be concerned about retailing this track through the general trade without offering advice and guidance to inexperienced modellers on how best to convert proprietary stock.  The demonstration stands at EMGS events will no doubt be geared up to provide such advice.  The whole thing could back fire badly if inexperienced modellers become frustrated because they have invested in the track but then expensive stock is compromised because they can't get EM to work due to lack of appropriate skills and support.  The EMGS Manual has extensive guidance on how to convert many of the proprietary  models, is issued to all new members at no additional charge (I believe), and is regularly updated for members as new proprietary locomotives are released.  

 

Being realistic I also suspect that the EMGS has been required to commit financially to this initiative and therefore it would feel appropriate that they should have the opportunity to recoup some of their investment through control of sales.  You never know, the price the Society charges might even prove be more attractive than that from a typical retail outlet if we use other products sold through he Society as a guide.

 

As an active EM modeller of over 30 years I have never regretted converting from 00 to EM but I couldn't have done it successfully, or at least would have struggled, without the support of those with previous experience who could show me how.  The EMGS was instrumental in getting me the support I needed and I encourage those of you who might be nervous about taking the plunge to either visit an EMGS event and/or seek out support from your local EMGS area group a list of which can be found on the EMGS Web Site  http://www.emgs.org/.  

 

Happy Modelling,

 

Frank

 

I'm sorry, this comes across as a bit patronising. Its basically saying "You wont be able to use this unless we have shown you how to do it, so we're going to stop you picking it up from your local model shop". Firstly, if its that complicated that I need my hand held, its not going to encourage me to try it, and secondly, who's to say that model shops wont also be able to provide specialist advice? Thats what they're their for. No one is suggesting its sold in Tesco alongside baked beans. 

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Interesting comments on the distribution of the points...

 

I'd say that most members have built stuff to EM already, and I expect will be interested in the points for new projects (i.e. me). But to increase awareness and expand the usage of EM selling to non members is a good idea. A bit of encouragement to join the society is needed as new blood helps keep it going so I'm all in favour of different pricing. (a kind of EM non member tax... lol).

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All interesting stuff, this.

As regards some effectively (or definitely) complaining that you have to be a member of the EMGS (or go to one of the shows) in order to buy the track, then it may be worth noting that the EMGS membership cost is comparable with the price of a reasonable wagon.  Not a lot to ask, particularly bearing in mind the financial risk the Society must have taken to undertake this (tens of 1000's ?)

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I would have thought making them generally available and writing about them in the model railway press (I see scope for some 'Getting started in EM articles' in Railway Modeller to publicise and encourage this range since they're Peco products) would also boost membership by virtue of providing a larger pool of EM modellers who would want to take things further. 

 

At the moment the stores manager is doing his job in his spare time, whilst some might think its just a case of printing a label and invoice then popping the item in a jiffy bag, it still takes time. Recently we have have had apologies for delays in getting items out so unless there is additional help there will be issues

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I'm another OO modeller who has never considered EM gauge, but this new track, combined with the SLW Class 24, is seriously tempting ! Well done to the EM Gauge Society and Peco.

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In the general scheme of things society membership may be an insignificant part of the price. Currently one Peco 00 Bullhead turnout costs about £25. EMGS membership costs less than one turnout. I'd expect an EM version to be a little more expensive - at least for now with it being a new product and pilot production run.

 

Up to EMGS how they choose to do the pricing. But with no retailer to make a margin for, these could potentially be cheaper than the Peco OO.

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