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EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts


CloggyDog
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I'm coming for the position of having no layout yet, just ideas. Some RTR locos and rolling stock (OO Gauge), and lots of ideas for a layout that I need to somehow make come together.

 

I have reasonable model making skills for scenery, buildings and weathering (I think), and certainly open to giving most things a go, but actually making a loco from scratch or building my own track isn't for me. These are skill I don't have and with limited time that I don't see myself sitting down and developing these skills.

 

So that's my background.

 

One of the requirements for my layout will be a great deal of realism, so scenery, buildings, weathering etc will feature greatly. Which brings me to the track. I had assumed, up to last week at least, that it'll be HO/OO and probably the new bullhead track from PECO, as that looks a lot better than plain vanilla HO/OO track.

 

But then this announcement was made, and it's put a spanner in the works. Should I go EM? (Rhetorical question, but feel free to chip in). Whilst there is limited turnouts at the moment, I would need to know that more variations are on the horizon.

 

But, and it's a big but, (not butt in the Kardashian sense), I'd have to change all my stock to EM gauge.

 

So this got me doing some research. It seems that:

a. The EM wheelsets can be very expensive at circa £6/axle.

b. Some suppliers are woefully slow in producing stock, 8 - 10 months waiting for some EM items.

c. There have been concerns with EM gauge wheels rusting whilst still in the packs.

 

All of which doesn't sit well for someone who is about to take a leap into the unknown.

 

Of all the EM wheels I've read about here on RMWeb, I've haven't seen much about the DCC Concepts wheels, which seem to be good value. Am I missing something here, what is the opinion of others on the DCC Concepts wheels?

 

I'll be modelling modern image diesels. Apart from the wheels, will I have to make adjustments to the bogies to make them wider, or have to get new bogies?

 

Incidentally, to preempt any advice on joining the EMGS, I have yet to make the decision on whether I'll join. Might do just to see what's involved before committing to EM or deciding to stay OO.

 

Many thanks.

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What type of stock do you propose to use?

Bachmann HHA, Dapol HIA Hoppers and Bachmann MTA open wagons, so far. Maybe FFA/FGA container flats

 

Some Mk2 /3 coaches

 

Locos:

Hornby Classes: 08, 43, 56, 66, 67

Bachmann Classes: 37, 57, 66, 70, 150 & 450

Dapol Class: 68

Heljan Class: 58

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Hi,

Most rolling stock can easily be converted by adjusting the gauging of the wheels. Locos are more demanding, Ultrascale offer some drop in replacements and Alan Gibson products can also be employed.

 

The EMGS produce a handbook (more like a weighty tome) which can be viewed online (I think) which details the necessary procedures for most locos.

 

As far as the Peco turnouts are concerned, I personally would not use them on a visible part of a layout but then I would say that wouldn't I? :no: 

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Of all the EM wheels I've read about here on RMWeb, I've haven't seen much about the DCC Concepts wheels, which seem to be good value. Am I missing something here, what is the opinion of others on the DCC Concepts wheels?

 

I'll be modelling modern image diesels. Apart from the wheels, will I have to make adjustments to the bogies to make them wider, or have to get new bogies?

 

I used the DCC Concepts wheels on many of the locos I converted for Black Country Blues; they worked well and I experienced no issues.

 

With many diesel and electric locos you can just regauge the 00 wheelsets (either on the existing axles or a new axle cut to length from suitable sized rod). This approach works well with Bachmann locos, but some Heljan have a more coarse profile and are better replaced.

 

Regarding modifying bogies, it can (sometimes) be necessary to thin down the sideframes or brake gear internally to give a bit more clearance. More likely to be an issue where regauging 00 wheelsets as the wheels tend to be slightly wider.

 

When I started out in EM, I did a couple of locos by pulling the 00 wheels out to EM then gradually replaced these with other wheels when I got around to it.

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Hi,

Most rolling stock can easily be converted by adjusting the gauging of the wheels. Locos are more demanding, Ultrascale offer some drop in replacements and Alan Gibson products can also be employed.

I believe it was the Gibson wheels that had issues with rusting, albeit this was on the old RMWeb forum going back a good few years. I haven't exhaustively researched recent posts on their wheels, has the problem of rusting now been resolved?

 

Regarding adjusting the gauge of the (existing?) wheels, I believe you are saying that the wheels on the loco can be pushed out a little, from the 16.5mm B2B to 18.2mm. I see that Mark in post #208 suggests similar.

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I used the DCC Concepts wheels on many of the locos I converted for Black Country Blues; they worked well and I experienced no issues.

 

With many diesel and electric locos you can just regauge the 00 wheelsets (either on the existing axles or a new axle cut to length from suitable sized rod). This approach works well with Bachmann locos, but some Heljan have a more coarse profile and are better replaced.

 

Regarding modifying bogies, it can (sometimes) be necessary to thin down the sideframes or brake gear internally to give a bit more clearance. More likely to be an issue where regauging 00 wheelsets as the wheels tend to be slightly wider.

 

When I started out in EM, I did a couple of locos by pulling the 00 wheels out to EM then gradually replaced these with other wheels when I got around to it.

Thanks Mark.

 

Of course, the DCC Concepts EM wheels are just wheels on axles, so good for wagons, coaches and non-driving bogies. Otherwise wheels with suitable gears will be required for the locos.

 

Just thinking. By pushing out the wheels to 18.2, in your experience you seem to say that there will be occasions where it is necessary to thin down the bogies as there won't be enough space between the outside face of the wheels and the inside face of the bogies. How do you thin down plastic bogies, my feeble attempts of filing plastic ends up with lots of horrible stringy plastic 'burr'? and will this also not reduce the depth of the hole where the axle sits into?

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Just thinking. By pushing out the wheels to 18.2, in your experience you seem to say that there will be occasions where it is necessary to thin down the bogies as there won't be enough space between the outside face of the wheels and the inside face of the bogies.

 

Don't forget when using RTR wheels for EM, the correct back-to-back is 16.4mm, not 16.5mm, which may ease the fit inside bogies and axleboxes.

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I've used DCC concepts on lots of my diesels... anything that has a 2mm axle as you reuse the gears. Think they're great.. very similar to Branchlines wheelsets and I just file down the pinpoint axles.

 

From your list I've used them for Bachmann 66s and a Heljan 58... and I also use them on Heljan 33s, Vitrains 37, Bachmann 20 & Hornby 60s. Also they are a solid wheel they're very easy to align pickups.

 

TBH I like they for anything that uses a 10.5mm,12mm or 14mm wheel, and use ultrascale diesel disc wheels for 13mm (class 43) or 15mm (47, 56). That little lot pretty much covers most classes that I model.

 

I'm tempted to start a thread on listing diesel conversions if it helps...

 

Cheers

Will

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Don't forget when using RTR wheels for EM, the correct back-to-back is 16.4mm, not 16.5mm, which may ease the fit inside bogies and axleboxes.

Hi Martin,

 

OK, thanks, thats on the right side of helping with space alright.

 

But will that be a problem for the EMGS new PECO track then? or will I have problems if I go with 16.5mm, as some of the B2B gauges I've seen are all this size (Eileen's Emp, DCC Concepts)?

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I've used DCC concepts on lots of my diesels... anything that has a 2mm axle as you reuse the gears. Think they're great.. very similar to Branchlines wheelsets and I just file down the pinpoint axles.

 

From your list I've used them for Bachmann 66s and a Heljan 58... and I also use them on Heljan 33s, Vitrains 37, Bachmann 20 & Hornby 60s. Also they are a solid wheel they're very easy to align pickups.

 

TBH I like they for anything that uses a 10.5mm,12mm or 14mm wheel, and use ultrascale diesel disc wheels for 13mm (class 43) or 15mm (47, 56). That little lot pretty much covers most classes that I model.

 

I'm tempted to start a thread on listing diesel conversions if it helps...

 

Cheers

Will

Thank you Will, that's very encouraging.

 

I must check what wheel diameter my locos have with the calipers tomorrow.

 

I, for one, would appreciate a thread on listing diesel conversions. Would be excellent if there were links to step-by-step instructions too if known. I've only come across a Hornby 08 shunter instruction sheet so far.

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But will that be a problem for the EMGS new PECO track then? or will I have problems if I go with 16.5mm, as some of the B2B gauges I've seen are all this size (Eileen's Emp, DCC Concepts)?

 

Hi,

 

EM back-to-back maximum:

 

RTR wheels = 16.4mm

 

BRMSB wheels, e.g. Romford/Markits = 16.5mm

 

kit wheels, e.g. Gibson,Ultrascale, EMGS = 16.6mm.

 

EM back-to-back minimum = 16.3mm for all wheels.

 

For more info, go to http://4-sf.uk/ and add 2mm to all relevant dimensions.

 

Sorry, I don't understand your question about the new track. If it's EM it will be the same as all other EM track, and the above dimensions apply. If it's not the same as other EM track, it's not EM.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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Just curious here. Could P4 turnouts be made commercially in the same way as these EM ones. In other words are the production tolerances tight enough?

 

This is not an elitist P4 question because I have no idea what normal tolerances are acceptable for EM turnout construction. If built using gauges then the tolerances on the gauges would set the final acceptable tolerances.

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Quote from the OP:

 

"Plain track will be supplied in 914mm lengths"

 

As many people will have to use mail order to buy this it's going to make buying small quantities expensive as it won't fit into a medium parcel, unless they are willing to snip 14mm off the end of each rail. Those that can will stock up at an ExpoEM, for others a shorter length would help.

914mm is a Peco standard length (1 yard) and has been since Peco started. So what is any different?

 

EMGS once offered 1/2 yard lengths as available (which I took to mean, if someone could be bothered to cut lengths in half!).

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Just curious here. Could P4 turnouts be made commercially in the same way as these EM ones. In other words are the production tolerances tight enough?

 

This is not an elitist P4 question because I have no idea what normal tolerances are acceptable for EM turnout construction. If built using gauges then the tolerances on the gauges would set the final acceptable tolerances.

Anything is possible. The S4 Society would have to negotiate with Peco. Or indeed the EMGS could (since they cover all 4mm gauges, larger than OO).

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I must check what wheel diameter my locos have with the calipers tomorrow.

 

I find this site incredibly useful for wheel diameter data:

http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html

 

I've posted step by step rewheeling details for a few locos over the years, I'll try to find a link at some point.

 

Your 08 is probably the most difficult to get right and I wouldn't tackle that one first (I made that mistake). You basically have two options; a drop in replacement wheelset from Ultrascale (complete wheels on axles, with gear and with cranks fitted and quartered) or the Alan Gibson conversion pack where you need to recover the gear from the 00 driven axle, set back to backs and quarter the cranks yourself. As you can guess, the latter requires a little more patience!

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Thanks Mark.

 

Of course, the DCC Concepts EM wheels are just wheels on axles, so good for wagons, coaches and non-driving bogies. Otherwise wheels with suitable gears will be required for the locos.

 

Just thinking. By pushing out the wheels to 18.2, in your experience you seem to say that there will be occasions where it is necessary to thin down the bogies as there won't be enough space between the outside face of the wheels and the inside face of the bogies. How do you thin down plastic bogies, my feeble attempts of filing plastic ends up with lots of horrible stringy plastic 'burr'? and will this also not reduce the depth of the hole where the axle sits into?

At 14mm diameter, the DCC Concepts (and other "coach" wheels) work well for locos with wheels around 3'7" to 3'9". When available, I prefer to use Keen Maygib coach wheels for 3'9" because they measure 14.5mm - but in reality no one has ever noticed the difference!!! Just need to file off the pinpoints from the axles and swap the drive gear over from the 00 wheel set.

 

Just careful work with a file to thin down bogie side frames, finish off with a finer file or sanding stick to clean up any "stringy" bits.

 

Unlike wagons and coaches, most diesels have wheels which run in an internal bearing so don't have an issue with pinpoint axles requiring a hole in the sideframe.

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I believe it was the Gibson wheels that had issues with rusting, albeit this was on the old RMWeb forum going back a good few years. I haven't exhaustively researched recent posts on their wheels, has the problem of rusting now been resolved?

 

 

If the wheels have steel tyres and are kept in damp conditions then they will rust.

However if conditions are that damp then far worse things will happen to other materials. Including the body of any person who is exposed to the same environment.

Bernard

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I find this site incredibly useful for wheel diameter data:

http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html

 

I've posted step by step rewheeling details for a few locos over the years, I'll try to find a link at some point.

 

Your 08 is probably the most difficult to get right and I wouldn't tackle that one first (I made that mistake). You basically have two options; a drop in replacement wheelset from Ultrascale (complete wheels on axles, with gear and with cranks fitted and quartered) or the Alan Gibson conversion pack where you need to recover the gear from the 00 driven axle, set back to backs and quarter the cranks yourself. As you can guess, the latter requires a little more patience!

 

 

 

Thank you Will, that's very encouraging.

 

I must check what wheel diameter my locos have with the calipers tomorrow.

 

I, for one, would appreciate a thread on listing diesel conversions. Would be excellent if there were links to step-by-step instructions too if known. I've only come across a Hornby 08 shunter instruction sheet so far.

 

 

I'll second that the CLAG website is excellent and my source of loco wheel sizing. It's been a real help!

 

I've just done a 56 conversion using Ultrascale 3ft9 diesel wheels and there are a few shots on my thread but not really step by step instructions. The only tricky bit is solving having a bit of wheel rock (solved with a file) on one of the bogies. The Ultrascale diesel disc wheels are excellent but I'm sure the price has gone up since i last bought them.

 

I can also reccommend Nigel Burkin's book "Fine Tuning and Maintaining 00 Gauge Models" which is usefull as he model's in EM and has step by step instructions on using black beetles (very similare to DCC concepts) on a 33, the 08 conversion using ultrascales, drop in Ultrascale 37s etc. and a Hornby 31. I found it very helpful and the only way i could do my 09 as it's a bit awkward.

 

If you plan on doing a few locos I've found my favourite specialist tool is a GW wheel press and wheel puller which is a great help to everything nice and square! I just use cheap M2 washers from ebay as spacers and other tips are burring the axle where the gear is and using some loctite. 

 

I really like the DCC concepts wheel which is easily available (atm) and pretty cheap (around £22 i think from Hattons for 12 axles). The OO & EM gauge have the same axle and profile so there is no need to get worry there... in fact if you do an EM conversion... then decide it's not for you then you can always re-gauge to OO FS!

 

 

Hope this helps

Will

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