Young People's view of the hobby

[RLBH]

As for expensive, it is only - as been discussed elsewhere - as costly as you want to make it or allow you to be seduced into making it.

Don't forget the perception of cost - a colleague of mine considered buying his son a train set, quickly found out that (new RTR) coaches ran to £40 each, and abandoned the idea without looking into cheaper ways of doing it. That's two people (father and son) lost to the hobby.

Edited November 12, 2018 by RLBH

[Corbs]

Has he not heard of eBay or Gumtree?

[RLBH]

Has he not heard of eBay or Gumtree?

He didn't get that far. He looked at the RRPs, almost had a heart attack, and decided that he'd pursue a cheaper hobby instead. I'd bet that a lot of people have had the same reaction.

 

The highly-detailed models that are being produced are no doubt exactly what the established market wants, and they clearly have the means to pay the associated prices. For people like my colleague who are interested but not dedicated, they're quite offputting. A wagon or coach is, fundamentally, not all that different than any other injection-moulded plastic item of similar size, yet costs considerably more. A locomotive you expect to be more expensive, but passing through the £100 price point gives similar sticker shock to someone coming to the hobby fresh.

 

Once they've been driven away by the idea that getting into model railways will cost them hundreds, they're unlikely to come back for some considerable time. The Hornby RailRoad range is actually at a good price point, and an acceptable level of detail for most potential modellers. £22.99 for a coach, £10.99 for a wagon, and £70-£110 for a locomotive (or £35 for an 0-4-0) makes it much more accessible. They just aren't as visible as they need to be, IMHO - the train set market is full of them, but additional rolling stock needs to be hunted out. It's no good that it's available in model shops, that's not where people who are casually interested will look. They'll be in Tesco, or Argos, or the likes - and they don't carry the rolling stock or locomotives that you need to turn a train set into a model railway.

[jjb1970]

Perceived value is crucial, and it needs to be remembered that what is considered good value to a hobby insider (of just about any hobby) is probably anything but to an outsider. This isn't a model railway thing, which of us has never looked at what colleagues or friends have paid for sporting equipment, electronic equipment etc and gone "***** much?!!"?

[jjb1970]

Another aspect of the hobby which is probably disconcerting to new entrants used to buying other stuff is how flakey some modern models can be in terms of quality, having to put bits back on that come off in transit etc. Modellers tend to react with derision when people complain about this and tell people that if they were modellers they'd just put it all back together but to an outsider if a product isn't in perfect order when removed from the box then it's defective and gets sent back, end of. In that respect the Hornby railroad range may be better for new starters on several levels.

[Guius]

Perceived value is crucial, and it needs to be remembered that what is considered good value to a hobby insider (of just about any hobby) is probably anything but to an outsider. This isn't a model railway thing, which of us has never looked at what colleagues or friends have paid for sporting equipment, electronic equipment etc and gone "***** much?!!"?

The thing is with sporting/car/tech based purchases individuals can demonstrate  their 'cool credentials' to those who are suggestible enough and thereby illicit approval from them, (helped along by facefook  of course), unlike spending money on a railway related object or experience which is most definitely 'un-cool' and in turn my be the subject of derision  - allegedly.

 

Guy

[jjb1970]

The thing is with sporting/car/tech based purchases individuals can demonstrate  their 'cool credentials' to those who are suggestible enough and thereby illicit approval from them, (helped along by facefook  of course), unlike spending money on a railway related object or experience which is most definitely 'un-cool' and in turn my be the subject of derision  - allegedly.

 

Guy

 

I think there may be some of that, but that tends to be true for any hobby and certainly if people enter just about any hobby then there are always opportunities to get into cliques and play the one upmanship game (model railways as a hobby are as guilty of that as any other). And these things are fluid, 20 years ago if you told somebody you'd just spent several thousand pounds on a bicycle most people would have thought you mad, now it is common and cycling is quite the thing for the social climber about town in a way that golf once was. At one time hi-fi was a very widespread hobby, now it's a niche.

[Coryton]

I think there may be some of that, but that tends to be true for any hobby and certainly if people enter just about any hobby then there are always opportunities to get into cliques and play the one upmanship game (model railways as a hobby are as guilty of that as any other). And these things are fluid, 20 years ago if you told somebody you'd just spent several thousand pounds on a bicycle most people would have thought you mad, now it is common and cycling is quite the thing for the social climber about town in a way that golf once was. At one time hi-fi was a very widespread hobby, now it's a niche.

 

Ah well - you need to get more young people interested then...

[RLBH]

The thing is with sporting/car/tech based purchases individuals can demonstrate  their 'cool credentials' to those who are suggestible enough and thereby illicit approval from them, (helped along by facefook  of course), unlike spending money on a railway related object or experience which is most definitely 'un-cool' and in turn my be the subject of derision  - allegedly.

 

Guy

And even then - how many people would like to participate in these hobbies/pastimes but feel that they are priced out of it?

 

Cycling and football (to name two) are easy to get in to, because there are relatively inexpensive options. Which is, I suspect, one of the factors making cycling so popular for social climbers - you don't need to pay £1,000 for clubs and then pay course fees every time you play, you can cycle quite adequately on an £80 bike. That isn't so much the case, or isn't perceived to be the case, for model railways, along with golf, cars, sailing and much of the tech stuff.

[jjb1970]

you can cycle quite adequately on an £80 bike. That isn't so much the case, or isn't perceived to be the case, for model railways, along with golf, cars, sailing and much of the tech stuff.

 

Whilst that is obviously completely true, believe me, the social climbing element of cycling isn't riding around on £80 bikes. I believe the expression used to describe such bikes is "bicycle shaped objects". I'm a keen cycling enthusiast and happily spend more than I should on bikes but I must admit there are attitudes in that hobby which I find to be quite appalling.

[jjb1970]

Cycling is interesting as it is both cheaper and more expensive than you might think depending on which perspective you are looking at it from. From one direction nobody needs several thousand pounds worth of professional racing bike unless they are actually a competitive elite level rider (and there aren't many of those). I'd actually question whether they need a lot of that gear, as with most sports there is a symbiotic relationship between the sport and equipment suppliers in which one acts as a marketing machine for the other to create demand. There is a law of diminishing returns and my own view is that unless you really are strapped for cash then go to around £400 - 500 and you will get a very good bike which will be much nicer to ride and far more durable and reliable than the ultra cheap alternatives. If you can't afford that then my advice is to go second hand. If you want something better then it is either because you just want it, or you are looking to ride competitively in which case I'd say the law of diminishing returns kicks in at around £1000 for road bikes. That's still serious money, but it's low rent for the in crowd of cycling.

 

If viewed from the other perspective, yes it can be cheap, but cycling is much more enjoyable with appropriate cycling clothes (which do not have to be skin tight lycra, you can get garments with inner lining and an outer shell which looks like normal clothing, decent shoes with clipless pedals, lights, it's worth learning how to service a bike properly to save costs and there are consumables to keep on top of. None of these things need be that expensive but it adds up.

[Zomboid]

Expensive bikes seem to be a step above the hifi snake oil from that other thread to me - obviously there are actual measurable benefits, but as someone who likes the odd biscuit, any performance impact of saving 12g on the groupset is probably not worth the money, and it's the lump of flesh in the seat that really needs improvement.

 

For me it's kind of the same in trains - a £335 Rapido RS11 will be objectively better than my Atlas RS11 (I forget how much that cost, but I'm sure it started with a 1), but I doubt I'd have £150 more fun with it. A hyperdetailed train would look absurd on my layout, which when it's done will owe more to impressionism than accuracy...

[jjb1970]

I think it's important to say that the fact that the world of hi-fi is awash with snake oil is not the same as saying that all hi-fi is snake oil. There are very clear measurable differences between equipment such as DACs and amplifiers, and transducers can sound very different indeed. The difference between good headphones and poor ones, or good speakers properly positioned in a room with appropriate acoustics and poor speakers or with badly positioned good speakers is very easy to discern. If you want good audio equipment you have to pay for it, but that isn't the same as saying you need to spend £££££££££££££££'s.

[RLBH]

Whilst that is obviously completely true, believe me, the social climbing element of cycling isn't riding around on £80 bikes. I believe the expression used to describe such bikes is "bicycle shaped objects". I'm a keen cycling enthusiast and happily spend more than I should on bikes but I must admit there are attitudes in that hobby which I find to be quite appalling.

I can well imagine it - but you can buy a £80 bike to find out whether you enjoy it before committing to spending £500 to £1000 on a decent one.

['CHARD]

However, back in the room, youngsters are generally on somewhat less than even a fixed income, so the hi-vi racing snake market is possibly one that hasn't entered their awareness as yet.

 

Youngsters who are into conspicuous consumption - trainers, athleisure-wear and electronic trappings - are probably not of the mindset to find railway modelling attractive.

[grahame]

I can well imagine it - but you can buy a £80 bike to find out whether you enjoy it before committing to spending £500 to £1000 on a decent one.

Then you have £80 less to spend on that £500 bike . . . .

 

G

[Guius]

Then you have £80 less to spend on that £500 bike . . . .

 

G

But you haven't spent £420 just to find out you don't like cycling!

 

Guy

[jjb1970]

I can well imagine it - but you can buy a £80 bike to find out whether you enjoy it before committing to spending £500 to £1000 on a decent one.

It depends on what you are buying a bike for. Unless you have never ridden a bike before then most people know what it's like to ride one. Cycling isn't just a hobby, it's working transport. In fact I think that there is too much emphasis on cycling as a sport or past time at the expense of promoting it as working transport. I find that the two worlds of cycle sports and cycle commuting and mobility often exist completely separately. I know quite a few serious sporting cyclists who never use a bike as a working transport tool and I suspect very few people riding to work or to the shops etc have any interest in competitive cycling.

[Reorte]

But you haven't spent £420 just to find out you don't like cycling!

On the other hand sometimes if you buy cheap you get rubbish that might put you off. That's the minefield of trying to get in to anything, knowing what is a good place to start.

[The Johnster]

The situation is also not helped by show organisers who try to cram too much into too small a space. Scaleforum has been criticised for being too open - i.e.not enough layouts, etc. but is more comfortable than having layouts you can't view or aisles you can't get along without being jostled,

 

This is a valid point; venues are 'capacity rated' for fire regulations and insurance purposes, but I suspect few of them take into account the space taken up by layouts and stalls.  And it is probably that few would be viable were this use of free space to be taken into account.  Very few of the venues are actually designed for this sort of use; leisure centre gymnasia, school or village/community halls, and so on, and even where dedicated exhibition space is used it often becomes uncomfortably crowded.  In the UK, many people are not used to dealing with such conditions in environments where they want to move around, and find it hard to cope.  

 

I have given up going to Cardiff's open air Sunday markets and boot sales for the same reason; here the situation is compounded by prams and shopping trolleys wielded by families who insist on holding hands so as not to lose the anklebiters.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The situation is also not helped by show organisers who try to cram too much into too small a space. Scaleforum has been criticised for being too open - i.e.not enough layouts, etc. but is more comfortable than having layouts you can't view or aisles you can't get along without being jostled,

 

This is a valid point; venues are 'capacity rated' for fire regulations and insurance purposes, but I suspect few of them take into account the space taken up by layouts and stalls.  And it is probably that few would be viable were this use of free space to be taken into account.  Very few of the venues are actually designed for this sort of use; leisure centre gymnasia, school or village/community halls, and so on, and even where dedicated exhibition space is used it often becomes uncomfortably crowded.  In the UK, many people are not used to dealing with such conditions in environments where they want to move around, and find it hard to cope.  

 

I have given up going to Cardiff's open air Sunday markets for the same reason; here the situation is compounded by prams and shopping trolleys wielded by families who insist on holding hands so as not to lose the anklebiters.

Edited November 13, 2018 by The Johnster

[rob D2]

I’m actually encouraged by the number of youngsters on FB pages for modelling - I’m on an EWS one and a modern image one and there is quite a lot of good stuff there.

 

Even being almost dead ( 46) as my kids tell me, I know FB is old hat, but it is useful for group pages. My kids are all about snapchat ( which appears to be a bullying app) and instagram ( which is where you superimpose bunny ears on everything ), not much use for toy chuffers.

 

I’d be surprised if the youngsters didn’t grow in numbers as some of the modern stuff, like 66s are getting old enough to take on a bit of character and maybe inspire more modellers

Edited November 13, 2018 by rob D2

[GreenGiraffe22]

 

Even being almost dead ( 46) as my kids tell me, I know FB is old hat, but it is useful for group pages. My kids are all about snapchat ( which appears to be a bullying app) and instagram ( which is where you superimpose bunny ears on everything ), not much use for toy chuffers.

 

I’d be surprised if the youngsters didn’t grow in numbers as some of the modern stuff, like 66s are getting old enough to take on a bit of character and maybe inspire more modellers

Gosh, referring to Facebook as 'old hat' is making me feel old D: I am a self confessed Facebook addict.

 

Instagram is used by some modellers, I follow a few I upload a fair bit of model stuff too (although mostly my Instagram is full of my other hobby of fish keeping )

 

Snap Chat I've never really got in to, I duno how the kids today are using it but certainly I know of some adults today who make use of the fact that photos and messages you send people are deleted as soon as they've been seen / read...

[njee20]

Until someone takes a screenshot of the compromising photo you didn't want anyone to see...

 

Instagram is all about images, there's lots of railway content on there, but it's very much about consuming, whilst Facebook is more for discussion, which makes it inherently better for "groups" and so on. They're just different. My wife loves Instagram (not for railways!), whilst I still use Facebook far more, 99% for discussions in various modelling groups.

[APOLLO]

My view.

 

As a parent with 3 kids - (son 24, twin girls 17) - My son had his own layout and was fairly keen for several years,but just moved away to other things years ago. Twins have helped with my layouts, had their own Underground Ernie set(s) bought VERY cheaply from Home bargains years ago - they had hours of fun with that integrating it with Lego and other toys. All their stuff is carefully stored - All three told me "don't throw it away or sell it dad - we may need it for our kids in future" !!!!!! 

 

Model Railways IS an expensive hobby for those starting now. Yes there is ebay etc, but new starters, especially young more than likely want new stuff. Young people these days generally want new stuff - not secondhand, model railways or anything else - that's the way most of them are.

 

Model Railways (new products at RRP)  IS an expensive hobby for us already in the hobby. Yes, it's relative to income / disposable cash. I've been in the hobby for over 50 years, so my need for new stuff is very minimal these days. I've bought several American O gauge locos & stock this year from ebay & specialist dealers - all at very reasonable some incredibly cheap prices. (cheaper than OO). These days I buy next to no OO stuff  - a recent Diesel Brake Tender and an order with Hattons for a Bachmann engineers saloon - and that's that.

 

ALL  hobbies can be as cheap or expensive as you care to be - but many don't see it that way for various reasons, especially brand & image conscious young people

 

Going forward as we "cash rich" (!!!!) older modellers are off to the scrapyard in the sky  there will be change. The hobby won't die, new entrants (of all ages) will take up the hobby - even if only for a short period. There will always be bargains to be had IF you look for them. Deceased modellers collections will supply a lot of future demand. The vast range of ever increasing new releases will slow down, perhaps becoming more specialised detailed & sophisticated.(and expensive).

 

This hobby, like everything these days, will change,  I'm sure it will survive, I'm not so sure it will prosper.

 

Brit15

[PatB]

I can well imagine it - but you can buy a £80 bike to find out whether you enjoy it before committing to spending £500 to £1000 on a decent one.

 

I don't think many people will enjoy an 80 quid bike .

 

When I needed a reliable and cheap commuter while working away from home, i was lucky enough to find a half decent 1970s frame, attached to a load of worn out, budget components, and, over the course of a couple of months, built The Hard Rubbish Special (aka Frankenfixie) around it, using whatever came up cheap on Ebay or on offer from outfits like Chain Reaction. I then covered 15,000 km on it around Canberra for near zero running costs. It was great fun, once I'd developed a reasonable level of fitness, to overtake members of the lycra brigade, clad in raggy old cargo shorts and a t-shirt and riding what was, apparently, something that came out of a skip . OK, so I sometimes then had to find somewhere out of sight to bring up my breakfast, but most enjoyment has a price .

 

I guess the model railway equivalent would be buying old 70s/80s models and following all those detailing articles in contemporary magazines.  Something I'm starting to do at the moment, if I ever find the time.

 

But then, in both cases, I'm starting from the standpoint of someone with a technical bent who likes building stuff and has at least some inkling of feasible ways of going about it. Mind you, the whole bicycle thing required me to learn much that I didn't previously know, most of which came from the Internet, o a lot can be done from a standing start given the initial desire/need to find out..