Why were TOADs not double-ended?

[Aire Head]

18 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

The earlier comment about the alleged unpopularity of GW brake vans off their home system prompts the question as to what extent did goods brake vans venture off their "home" system in the days before nationalisation/common user arrangement. 

 

I would think that on short journeys such as cross-London transfer freights, they would work through.  Would this also be the case on long-distance freights or would they have been changed, perhaps at the same time as loco changes?  Were visiting brake vans ever "borrowed" in the same way as ordinary goods wagons?

 

Just looking for an excuse for SR and LMS brake vans on an ECML based layout!

 

 

See above I quoted the wrong person 

[kevinlms]

On 13/11/2018 at 06:36, The Johnster said:

A lot, and, driven by profit and the desire to reduce costs, the railways tried very hard to change the situation, but the 9' wheelbase wagon was standard fare almost everywhere until the introduction of MGR traffic for the power stations.  The collieries argued that their screens and loading equipment was designed for that type of wagon, which had been introduced to them by the railway in the first place, and were unwilling to spend money on replacing this equipment.  As they mostly owned their own wagons for many years, there wasn't much that the railway could do, though they tried various ideas including lower rates for 21ton wagons and hoppers.  

 

You probably couldn't find a more diverse bunch of traffics or corporate cultures than the American railroads, but they had no difficulty seeing that bogie air braked stock was the way to go, something we have yet to accomplish over a century later in the UK.  Since the end of WW1 a century ago the continual bleat has been lack of capital, and fair enough, but there is and has been a reluctance to innovate for fear of coming unstuck behind it.  Compare us to the Belgians in the 1870s and 80s; all sorts of wacky ideas, mostly failures that would not have been tolerated here, but it led to the Belpaire firebox and Walchearts valve gear.  The last steam locomotives built for use here were the Hunslet so called 'austerities',  Robert Stephenson would have recognised every feature of them, most if which he used himself on the long boilered goods of the 1840s and 50s; indeed, some locos of that type for the NCB were supplied by RSH in 1953!

The Americans (including Canada in this case), generally had vehicles that both travelled far longer distances and at a higher average speed, so it's not surprising that a bogie vehicle and fitted with automatic brakes was an early requirement. They could hardly have trains limited to say 40 mph, grease lubricated axle boxes, trundling along their main lines from goods yard to goods yard.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

When you have a GWR/WR terminus the brake van has to run veranda first wither when coming into the terminus or when going back out. So exactly 50% of the freight workings on my layout had the brake van veranda first. Rather oddly I did get a few comments that the brake van was the wrong way round at exhibitions. I was always careful to be polite when I explained.

 

In this photo the pannier is about to run round the assembled freight train ready to go back down the branch.

Oh I agree, it needed to be done. But if the layout is a 'roundy', how many have brake vans, with the veranda anywhere but at the rear?

[Bucoops]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The Americans (including Canada in this case), generally had vehicles that both travelled far longer distances and at a higher average speed, so it's not surprising that a bogie vehicle and fitted with automatic brakes was an early requirement. They could hardly have trains limited to say 40 mph, grease lubricated axle boxes, trundling along their main lines from goods yard to goods yard.

 

When in the wilderness (dark territory) trains were limited to 49mph in the US. Not too much dark territory left now as cab to shore radio has fixed that.

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Pre-nationalisation, goods brake vans were not common user and would have strayed off their own railways only as far as the point at which the train was handed over to the next company. This would be the same point as where the locomotive would be changed, which would be the first major yard beyond the company boundary. 

 

Jim

 

I've seen a very fine layout, a wayside station in the Marches in the early 20th century, some miles north of a junction with the Cambrian Railways. There was a Cambrian brake van being shunted around but not a Cambrian engine in sight. Very strange.

[PhilJ W]

A lot of Southern brake vans were commanderred by the military, probably because they had some to spare. There are photographs of Queen Mary brakevans in Scotland during the war. GWR toads did not travel far from base even within the GWR system, many were allocated to specific routes or services. 

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

A lot of Southern brake vans were commanderred by the military, probably because they had some to spare. There are photographs of Queen Mary brakevans in Scotland during the war. GWR toads did not travel far from base even within the GWR system, many were allocated to specific routes or services. 

I thought that those SR vans used by the War Department had been purpose-built for them?

[PhilJ W]

1 minute ago, Fat Controller said:

I thought that those SR vans used by the War Department had been purpose-built for them?

Some were but they were of the 4 wheel pillbox type. The ones used in Scotland were the bogie Queen Mary vans. 

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

Some were but they were of the 4 wheel pillbox type. The ones used in Scotland were the bogie Queen Mary vans. 

Ah!

[Denbridge]

21 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Pre-nationalisation, goods brake vans were not common user and would have strayed off their own railways only as far as the point at which the train was handed over to the next company. This would be the same point as where the locomotive would be changed, which would be the first major yard beyond the company boundary. 

 

Jim

There are several pictures I've seen in books featuring SR brake vans running in GW territory. Indeed, Pendon who model their formations based on accurate research, feature at least one train on the Vale Scene which features an ex LSWR brake at its tail.

[PhilJ W]

On the subject of the SR pillbox vans. As many know BR adopted a modified version of the LNER van as standard. However they proved to large for some lines so a batch of the SR designed 'Pill Box' vans were built, it was one of these that stood on its own isolated piece of track for many years at Manea in the former GE territory. The Pill Box vans were made narrower to enable them to be used on the Hastings line.

[melmerby]

On 09/11/2018 at 23:35, Talltim said:

Yeah, sure beats rattling around in a brake van

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9733

You don't see many toads being used as holiday lets:

https://goo.gl/maps/UhkvPnJmuFtuvmoE6

or

https://goo.gl/maps/3aWb4SpMGh5BN4Rf9

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by melmerby

[John M Upton]

I could have sworn that I have seen a model of a long double ended Toad on a Bogie chassis somewhere. 

 

It could have been a neverwazza though.

[D9020 Nimbus]

One reason for the lack of bogie vehicles generally in the UK was the use of wagon turntables by many of the larger customers; also goods hoists used in some depots. The MOD was one of the worst offenders—hence the VEA vans converted from Vanwides.

[JDW]

4 hours ago, John M Upton said:

I could have sworn that I have seen a model of a long double ended Toad on a Bogie chassis somewhere. 

 

It could have been a neverwazza though.

 

Yep, I remember seeing something like that somewhere too - probably on here in one of the "might have been" threads!

[Happy Hippo]

At the risk of being controversial, I am sure that somewhere in the dim and distant part, I read that Toads were originally designed with a single verandah end as they were supposed to be turned at the end of their journey. so the verandah end always trailed.

 

This may have worked at a number of  locations on main line workings but single ended branch lines without the benefit of a turntable, would not be so lucky.

 

I was going to raise the point about Princetown having a turntable, but again, a long time ago, read (somewhere) that the turntable was placed at Princetown in order to turn, not brake vans, but snow ploughs!  

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The Americans (including Canada in this case), generally had vehicles that both travelled far longer distances and at a higher average speed, so it's not surprising that a bogie vehicle and fitted with automatic brakes was an early requirement. They could hardly have trains limited to say 40 mph, grease lubricated axle boxes, trundling along their main lines from goods yard to goods yard.

Good points Kev.  The North Americans were early adopters of bogie stock to cope with lightly laid track so bogie vehicles were a natural progression for them.  Automatic brakes were a later addition, enabling faster point-to-point times, and Janney couplers later still, able to cope with very heavy loadings, the genesis of American superpower.

 

10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Oh I agree, it needed to be done. But if the layout is a 'roundy', how many have brake vans, with the veranda anywhere but at the rear?

There is a tendency for toads to be exhibited with the veranda to the rear, and in reality guards must have put in a lot of effort to get them turned that way if it could be arranged.  A return main line trip of a few hours with the veranda leading would be unpleasant on a cold night, as the guard has to leave the cabin to use the brake as required, and pretty nasty on a dry day with dust blowing off a coal train as well.  So I would suggest that the reality was that a majority of main line workings had the toad running veranda to the rear, but at a ratio of perhaps 55/45%.  

 

In the South Wales valleys, the norm was for the loco to work up the valley smokebox first to assist with water levels in the boiler, and there was a misinformed view for many years among enthusiasts, originating with Ahrons I believe.  that the popularity of the 0-6-2T was because the pony wheels assisted with the ride on the faster downhill loaded run; bunker first; it was in fact to support bigger bunkers.  The downhill run was in reality much slower than pulling the empties uphill because of the caution needed to avoid a runaway with the heavy loadings, and much was 'incline working' with the loco pulling hard against pinned down wagon brakes.

 

In this instance. GW toads were normally used veranda trailing on the uphill run with the empties, and veranda leading (unturned like the loco) on the way down with the loadeds.  Guards on valley mineral work spent a good portion of their time off the van assisting with shunting and pinning down brakes anyway, so the matter was of less import than it was on main line work

[The Johnster]

24 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

At the risk of being controversial, I am sure that somewhere in the dim and distant part, I read that Toads were originally designed with a single verandah end as they were supposed to be turned at the end of their journey. so the verandah end always trailed.

 

This may have worked at a number of  locations on main line workings but single ended branch lines without the benefit of a turntable, would not be so lucky.

 

I was going to raise the point about Princetown having a turntable, but again, a long time ago, read (somewhere) that the turntable was placed at Princetown in order to turn, not brake vans, but snow ploughs!  

This seems unlikely.  The vans were allocated to goods yards and depots, and serviced for the return working at the goods yard or depot that was the destination of their working, not at engine sheds.  Goods yards do not have turntables, and while depots may have wagon turntables and rope/capstan working, these are far too small for brake vans.

[The Johnster]

On 13/11/2018 at 15:20, Spitfire2865 said:

Surprising lack of handrails inside.  

Though I suppose this does date from postwar where they had such luxuries as limited slop drawgear and controlled airbrakes.  American cabooses earlier werent a far cry from the humble brake van.  You best hold on when the train gets going.

Cabeese were not just brake vans, they were crew accommodation for men that might be away from depot for several days.  They had sleeping and 'full stove' cooking facilities.  I'd submit that any bogie vehicle irrespective of how primitive rode better than a 4 wheeled rigid frame UK brake van; d*mn right you'd best hold on when the train gets going!

[Happy Hippo]

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Cabeese were not just brake vans, they were crew accommodation for men that might be away from depot for several days.  They had sleeping and 'full stove' cooking facilities.  I'd submit that any bogie vehicle irrespective of how primitive rode better than a 4 wheeled rigid frame UK brake van; d*mn right you'd best hold on when the train gets going!

Weren't many of  the early US cabeese of the 4 wheel 'bobber' variety?  Which combined with Lincoln Pinn (Link and pin) style centre couplers and only hand brakes must have been a quite a ride, especially with the generally lower quality pway.

[The Johnster]

On 02/11/2019 at 14:38, adb968008 said:

A number of years back, watching an old black and white film, I saw a scene where a freight arrives at a country halt, with a pannier or 14xx, and whilst the actors were doing the scene, just behind them a porter and a guard were unloading milk churns and pidgeon baskets from a Toad van, so I always assumed the verandah was for local low volume packages to be off loaded from country stations.

This is probably artistic license for the purposes of the film.  In earlier days, there were 'road vans' which were brake vans with side doors to load/unload general merchandise freight, including high value items that were under the guard's supervision, but this practice died out in the 20th century.  The last thing a freight guard who may have to access the lamps or the brake in a hurry is a lot of part load goods items for him to fall over in the dark.  Pigeon baskets were carried in NPCCS parcels vehicles with drop down shelves secured by chains hanging from the sides.  

 

On 02/11/2019 at 13:55, jim.snowdon said:

Pre-nationalisation, goods brake vans were not common user and would have strayed off their own railways only as far as the point at which the train was handed over to the next company. This would be the same point as where the locomotive would be changed, which would be the first major yard beyond the company boundary. 

 

Jim

The pooling of brake vans was something virulently resisted by the WR, which promptly branded most of it's Toads with RU markings and 'Return to...' instructions.  This was assisted by the unpopularity of the vans off the GW network.  The Southern used to chase down any of it's Queen Marys that escaped as well.

[Happy Hippo]

Just found this from Mike the Stationmaster from some time back:

 

'And just to finalise things there was never any Instruction that I can trace (although I've only been back to 1920) to turn freight (goods) brake vans on the GWR  And the Instructions relevant to such 'vans were pretty comprehensive, and updated over the years, so it seemingly never even entered the GWR's, or WR's, head to insist they were a particular way round.'

 

However, I'm sure I read somewhere a long time ago about this, however incorrect it may be, but as we all know it only takes one article to create an urban myth.

[The Johnster]

10 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Weren't many of  the early US cabeese of the 4 wheel 'bobber' variety?  Which combined with Lincoln Pinn (Link and pin) style centre couplers and only hand brakes must have been a quite a ride, especially with the generally lower quality pway.

The bobbers were used up to fairly recent times on short lines or transfer work, and are much more like a British brake van.

[Rivercider]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

You don't see many toads being used as holiday lets:

https://goo.gl/maps/UhkvPnJmuFtuvmoE6

or

https://goo.gl/maps/3aWb4SpMGh5BN4Rf9

 

There is (was?) a toad or two used for overnight camping at Christow on the former Teign Valley line,

 

cheers

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

There is a tendency for toads to be exhibited with the veranda to the rear, and in reality guards must have put in a lot of effort to get them turned that way if it could be arranged.  A return main line trip of a few hours with the veranda leading would be unpleasant on a cold night, as the guard has to leave the cabin to use the brake as required, and pretty nasty on a dry day with dust blowing off a coal train as well.  So I would suggest that the reality was that a majority of main line workings had the toad running veranda to the rear, but at a ratio of perhaps 55/45%.  

 

 

I can perhaps understand why a guard would prefer the verandah trailing, but how could a guard arrange for it to be turned? After all it requires the cooperation of a loco crew and perhaps a signalman or more to go around a triangle.