Why were TOADs not double-ended?

[Happy Hippo]

14 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I can perhaps understand why a guard would prefer the verandah trailing, but how could a guard arrange for it to be turned? After all it requires the cooperation of a loco crew and perhaps a signalman or more to go around a triangle.

You don't really want to turn the van around as in my experience  it plays hell with the alignment of the Dingham couplings!

[The Johnster]

Exactly.  If the loco was being turned for the return leg on a triangle, the van could easily be sent with it, since the bell codes and headcode lamps are the same and propelling us allowed up to 40mph, and on some routes it may not need turning at all, say Cardiff-Worcester via Hereford with a return working via Cheltenham.  Most of the time the van would do one one leg of the turn with the veranda trailing, though. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

You don't really want to turn the van around as in my experience  it plays hell with the alignment of the Dingham couplings!

So we have a coupler which only works one way round and people swear it's the best thing since sliced bread..............

Not much cop when your stock gets reversed as in the real world!

I'll stick to symmetrical, thank you.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

Most (if not all) GWR termini and quite a few intermediate stations had turntables, but they were removed around about the turn of the century leaving only a few places like Princetown with them. Most "modern" engines didn't need them.

 

The Princetown turntable was retained due to excessive tyre wear on the 44XXs. They were turned to even out wear.

 

However as pointed out earlier there was no need to turn a GWR brake van as they had a door at the van end and windows. Why waste half an hour turning one just for aesthetic reasons?

 

 

 

Jason

[Siberian Snooper]

You'd be hard pressed to get a 44 or 45 on the tables at Princetown or Yelverton,  they were not much longer than a pannier tank, which was what the snow plough was bolted to.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/11/2019 at 13:55, jim.snowdon said:

Pre-nationalisation, goods brake vans were not common user and would have strayed off their own railways only as far as the point at which the train was handed over to the next company. This would be the same point as where the locomotive would be changed, which would be the first major yard beyond the company boundary. 

 

Jim

Or as far as their own Guard worked - which wasn't quite teh same thing.  For example GWR trains worked to Manchester (Exchange) and if you go back to the late 19th century there was a nightly Paddington - Manchester freight working which probably had a GWR Guard, and hs van, working through to Manchester (albeit perhaps not the one who was on the train when it left Paddington although Paddington Passenger Guards did work through to Birkenhead well into post-war years.  

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

You'd be hard pressed to get a 44 or 45 on the tables at Princetown or Yelverton,  they were not much longer than a pannier tank, which was what the snow plough was bolted to.

 

 

 

They were about 26 foot which is the wheelbase of a 44XX. It's in the GWR Branchline Termini book.

 

Never heard any mention of snowploughs and I thought panniers were banned.

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

A couple of 850 class saddle tanks (990 and 992) worked the branch before the 44xxs established themselves.

 

[Harlequin]

I happen to have the GWR BLT book open in front of me. It says:

 

"During the heavy snowfalls on Dartmoor small 19XX class tank locomotives fitted with snowploughs were run up and down the branch between trains, often backed with a rough 45XX [snip].  0-6-0 tank locomotives were used as they could be turned at either end of the journey to face into the snow, using the 23' 6" diameter turntables provided at Yelverton and Princetown"

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Harlequin

[jim.snowdon]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Or as far as their own Guard worked - which wasn't quite teh same thing.  For example GWR trains worked to Manchester (Exchange) and if you go back to the late 19th century there was a nightly Paddington - Manchester freight working which probably had a GWR Guard, and hs van, working through to Manchester (albeit perhaps not the one who was on the train when it left Paddington although Paddington Passenger Guards did work through to Birkenhead well into post-war years.  

They did, and I have a photograph of a Dean Goods that it obviously outside either Exchange or Central station. Just as the loco worked through, so would the brake van and its guard.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

33 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I happen to have the GWR BLT book open in front of me. It says:

 

"During the heavy snowfalls on Dartmoor small 19XX class tank locomotives fitted with snowploughs were run up and down the branch between trains, often backed with a rough 45XX [snip].  0-6-0 tank locomotives were used as they could be turned at either end of the journey to face into the snow, using the 23' 6" diameter turntables provided at Yelverton and Princetown"

 

 

 

Must have missed or forgotten that bit. It's been a while since I've read it properly.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

They did, and I have a photograph of a Dean Goods that it obviously outside either Exchange or Central station. Just as the loco worked through, so would the brake van and its guard.

 

Jim

Almost certainly I would think Jim because it was GWR train using running powers into Manchester and not any sort of joint operation.  GWR freight brakevans definitely worked to Warrington on the Jellicoe specials in WWI so going to Manchester wouldn't be much different.

[adb968008]

I’d love to see pictures of the GWR in to manchester, but never found much online. When did they cease, and what did they run ?

Theres a GWR warehouse still in Manchester (at least it used to be when I was a kid).

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’d love to see pictures of the GWR in to manchester, but never found much online. When did they cease, and what did they run ?

Theres a GWR warehouse still in Manchester (at least it used to be when I was a kid).

IIRC They ran 4-6-0s on passenger turns I'm sure I've seen pictures of Stars and Saints in Central station.

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Most (if not all) GWR termini and quite a few intermediate stations had turntables, but they were removed around about the turn of the century leaving only a few places like Princetown with them. Most "modern" engines didn't need them.

 

The Princetown turntable was retained due to excessive tyre wear on the 44XXs. They were turned to even out wear.

 

However as pointed out earlier there was no need to turn a GWR brake van as they had a door at the van end and windows. Why waste half an hour turning one just for aesthetic reasons?

 

 

 

Jason

You’d have answered your own question if you’d ever had to go out on to a van’s leading balcony at any speed on a dirty night, which is comparable to taking a windjammer round the Horn, or in dry weather with a train of dusty coal, which is comparable to being grit blasted.  A GW toad’s brake standard is out on the balcony, not inside the cabin, and you have to go out there frequently to observe the train (no duckets or side windows, remember), and to signal the loco crew or signalmen.  There are opening windows (no door) in the other end to access the side and tail lamps. 

 

Toads ran up to 60mph on some jobs, and a goods guard wants to keep warm and dry just like anyone else.  His opportunities to do so were limited on the GW and steam age WR, and a double ended van with the brake standard in the cabin and lookout duckets with shoulder padded seats is a much better option. 

 

But the GW toads were well built, better draughtproofed, and better riding than some others, and were preferred by their own guards, though not by anyone from other railways. 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

IIRC They ran 4-6-0s on passenger turns I'm sure I've seen pictures of Stars and Saints in Central station.

 

Central? 

[melmerby]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Central? 

Brain Fade! Probably Exchange

The GWR operated there from 1884-1943.

[keefer]

1910 RCH Junction diagram for Manchester - GWR not mentioned at all (not even for a depot/goods station), which is odd as others e.g Birkenhead show GW Joint lines etc.

(Image stated to be in public domain)

[Aire Head]

I beleive the GWR had running powers into Manchester using someone else's line (Not sure whose) likewise I beleive the goods warehouse may not have had a direct rail connection.

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I beleive the GWR had running powers into Manchester using someone else's line (Not sure whose) likewise I beleive the goods warehouse may not have had a direct rail connection.

 

I can't remember where I read this but, yes, I have certainly seen mention of GW running powers into Manchester Exchange (which is actually in Salford). Perhaps worth looking at old-maps.co.uk (or NLS) to see if a GW warehouse is shown.

[Compound2632]

According to the Wikipedia article, which cites Vol. 10 of the David & Charles Regional History, Great Western goods trains were handled at Manchester Liverpool Road goods station (the original Liverpool & Manchester terminus); presumably the Great Western had use of some of the warehouse facilities there. The RCH map (and the OS 25 inch map) indicate Liverpool Road & Salford Goods Station as purely LNWR, I suspect the RCH map at least would only mark the GWR facilities separately if there were actually GW-owned lines - vide the nearby Great Northern Deansgate goods station. 

 

According to the 1904 edition of the RCH Handbook of Stations*, Liverpool Road and Salford was owned by the LNWR but also used by the GCR and GWR. The Great Central, whose access was over the LNW and MSJA, only used the station for livestock but the LNW and GW also had facilities for general goods (with the aid of a 20 ton capacity crane) plus furniture vans, carriages etc. GW access was via the LNW from Walton Junction.

 

Likewise Exchange is listed as a LNWR station also used by the GW, with access by the same route from Walton Junction.

 

*I have the David & Charles reprint of 1970, bought second-hand this summer for £8.50. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Compound2632

[Aire Head]

So as far as I can tell the GWR goods shed was at Liverpool Road and appears to have been served by the LMS who I presume handled the traffic arriving and departing while the GWR just operated their shed.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

So as far as I can tell the GWR goods shed was at Liverpool Road and appears to have been served by the LMS who I presume handled the traffic arriving and departing while the GWR just operated their shed.

 

 

It's clear from the Regional History (as reported by the Wikipedia article), as mentioned in my previous post, that Great Western goods trains worked to Liverpool Road just as Great Western passenger trains ran to Exchange, using their own locomotives.

 

Maybe someone with a copy of the Regional History, Vol 10, to hand could confirm what that authoritative work says on this point?

[IanGe]

Hi guys,

During my teens in Warrington in the 1960's  I (mis) spent much of my time around Arpley yard. According to the elderly shunters there the GWR goods trains ran into the yard there from Chester via the GWR/ LNWR joint line from Chester /Birkenhead. During WW1 Arpley was the point where the " Jellicoe special" coal trains from south Wales were handed over from the GWR to the LNWR for movement on to Scotland.  The GWR guards were not popular,  always asking for their Toad vans to be turned round for their return journey, which the Arpley LNWR shunters made a point of ignoring.  I remember being told the GWR guards had their own special  barrel of lamp oil which they insisted on using much to the disgust of the LNWR guys.

I didn't realise that the GWR  ran passenger trains through Warrington and on to Manchester Exchange in the pre WW2 period until I saw a blurred photo of a GWR mogul  on a passenger train running through Warrington. Later, I found  the excellent series of books on steam in Manchester and Salford by Paul Shackcloth in which he gives details and photos of GWR  Saints, Halls, etc at Manchester Exchange and on Patricroft shed in the 1930's.    Great series of books for anyone interested in Manchester/ Salford steam era.  

regards

Ian

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, IanGe said:

Arpley yard.

 

For info: