Why were TOADs not double-ended?

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’d love to see pictures of the GWR in to manchester, but never found much online. When did they cease, and what did they run ?

Theres a GWR warehouse still in Manchester (at least it used to be when I was a kid).

There are published pictures of both a 43XX mogul and a 'Dukedog' at Manchester Exchange on passenger trains.  I believe, but can't be certain that the GWR passenger service to Manchester finished some time during WWII.

 

In the summer 1938 timetable there were two GWR Class E freights daily to/from Mnachester and quite a number of passenger trains including some from the Cambrian Coast.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

the nearby Great Northern Deansgate goods station. 

 

 

OT but this got me wondering how the Great Northern goods station was worked, being so far from Great Northern territory. This photo shows what to my eyes appears to be an Ivatt or Stirling saddle tank, presumably stationed locally to shunt the goods station - but where was it shedded? And did Great Northern engines work Great Northern goods trains to Manchester all the way from Retford? Seems very unlikely. Before the days of the London Extension, the Great Northern Manchester expresses were worked from Grantham by MS&L engines. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Back to GW goods engines working to Manchester, towards the end of the 19th century. After describing the passenger workings to Exchange, from Birkenhead daily, worked by a Sir Watkin 2-2-2, as well as from Chester, using various 2-4-0s including members of the Chancellor class, Ahrons states: "Two or three Great Western goods engines were stabled in the London and North Western Railway Manchester shed at Ordsall Lane. This shed has since been pulled down, and the Great Western Railway goods engines now find a lodging at Patricroft."

 

E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and train working in the latter part of the nineteenth century Vol. 4 (Heffer, 1953, reprinted from The Railway Magazine, 1916).

[The Stationmaster]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For info:

 

To which you need to add the GWR Running Powers from Walton Jcn (on the map above) to Manchester (via Newton-le -Willows) over former LNWR lines which enabled the GWR to run its trains to both Manchester Exchange and Liverpool Road goods depot.  It appears (but I cannot confirm) that these Running Powers were a result of the horse trading between the GWR and L&NWR during the process of them taking over joint ownership of the Birkenhead Railway in 1860 as the L&NWR were apparently most unhappy about the GWR's inherited Running Powers to Timperley which they had gained in 1855 through one of the earlier Birkenhead  companies which was then absorbed into the Birkenhead Railway.

 

The GWR Running Powers to Timperley remained until nationalisation but were never exercised  - presumably part of the deal at the time of the 1860 Act to  jointly takeover the Birkenhead Railway.

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Back to GW goods engines working to Manchester, towards the end of the 19th century. After describing the passenger workings to Exchange, from Birkenhead daily, worked by a Sir Watkin 2-2-2, as well as from Chester, using various 2-4-0s including members of the Chancellor class, Ahrons states: "Two or three Great Western goods engines were stabled in the London and North Western Railway Manchester shed at Ordsall Lane. This shed has since been pulled down, and the Great Western Railway goods engines now find a lodging at Patricroft."

 

E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and train working in the latter part of the nineteenth century Vol. 4 (Heffer, 1953, reprinted from The Railway Magazine, 1916).

The GCR had Running Powers from Ordsall Lane to Liverpool Road but the GNR didn't so the train was presumably worked as a GCR train in pre LNER days unless it was done under a special agreement charged differently.

[jim.snowdon]

On 3 November 2019 at 14:03, John M Upton said:

I could have sworn that I have seen a model of a long double ended Toad on a Bogie chassis somewhere. 

 

It could have been a neverwazza though.

You might well have done. I created one, which may have been the first, for fun probably 30-odd years ago when I modelled in 4mm scale/EM gauge. I still have it, and I know that the idea has since been copied.

 

Jim

[eastglosmog]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There are published pictures of both a 43XX mogul and a 'Dukedog' at Manchester Exchange on passenger trains.  I believe, but can't be certain that the GWR passenger service to Manchester finished some time during WWII.

 

In the summer 1938 timetable there were two GWR Class E freights daily to/from Mnachester and quite a number of passenger trains including some from the Cambrian Coast.

Just had a look at the 1947 timetable, and they were still running from Chester to Manchester Exchange then - though could be a reinstatement after the war.  There was also a few through trains Plymouth to/from Manchester London Road, Cardiff to/from Manchester London Road and quite a few trains with through carriages between those places - these presumably ran via Crewe.

[30851]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

OT but this got me wondering how the Great Northern goods station was worked, being so far from Great Northern territory. This photo shows what to my eyes appears to be an Ivatt or Stirling saddle tank, presumably stationed locally to shunt the goods station - but where was it shedded? And did Great Northern engines work Great Northern goods trains to Manchester all the way from Retford? Seems very unlikely. Before the days of the London Extension, the Great Northern Manchester expresses were worked from Grantham by MS&L engines. 

 

Still OT but... The GN were part owner of the Cheshire Lines Committee so Deansgate wasn't far from anything for them. The GN had use of Trafford Park Engine shed to service their engines. Some of the trains were worked by GN engines all the way and some of them changed for GC between Retford and Guide Bridge. The other way GN trains got to Deansgate was via Colwick, the Pinxton branch then over to the Midland via Pye Bridge and Matlock. These trains weren't diverted to run via Woodhead until the early 50's. What is interesting is that until this time wagons were being sent from Grimsby to Manchester via Colwick/Matlock because that gave maximum mileage to the GN - even though the GN had long gone by this time. 

 

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Just had a look at the 1947 timetable, and they were still running from Chester to Manchester Exchange then - though could be a reinstatement after the war.  There was also a few through trains Plymouth to/from Manchester London Road, Cardiff to/from Manchester London Road and quite a few trains with through carriages between those places - these presumably ran via Crewe.

The various (G)WR/LMS/R through trains as mentioned in the post quoted ran in those days via the North & West and Western engines didn't work any of them beyond Crewe/. Although in fact I think by then most GWR engine working to Crewe was basically on more localised services off the North &West and the long distance trains changed engines elsewhere, mainly at Salop, although of course LM engines worked at least as far as Newport on some trains.

 

Manchester Exchange - Chester services lasted for many years (I travelled on one in the 1960s, hauled by a 'Brit' on the return journey from Chester) but they were wholly LM operated.