Mystery location

[Trev52A]

Does anyone recognise the location in these photographs of mine, both taken at the same spot somewhere between Chester and Hereford on 23rd April 1977, please? (My fault for not keeping comprehensive notes!)

 

The occasion was the passing of the southbound 'Cathedrals Express' special which was headed by 'King' 4-6-0 No 6000 'KGV'. The train, which had been organised by the M&GNJRS, was returning to London after heading north earlier that day behind 'Princess Royal' 4-6-2 No 6201 between Hereford and Chester.

 

It would appear, from the exhaust and the number of people on the trackside, that it was pulling away from a station stop somewhere. The background in the second picture would suggest somewhere out in the countryside. I have tried looking on Google Earth with no luck - no doubt the place has changed a bit in 41 years!

 

 

Many thanks in advance

Trevor

[Oldddudders]

The A49 chases the railway for much of the way between Shrewsbury and Hereford, but in 40 years there will have been changes and new bypasses etc.

[Phil Bullock]

Oldddudders is right about the A49 south of Shrewsbury - but that was lower quadrant territory IIRC, we have an UQ in the first picture.

 

And that church looks distinctive - St Mary's Ruabon perhaps? 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=saint+mary%27s+church+Ruabon&rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB569GB631&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUoNKC38reAhWnCMAKHS4KDwsQ_AUIECgD&biw=1093&bih=526#imgrc=ip1Q47gUqNHLuM:

 

Which puts us here if we are in agreement - KGV heading south

 

https://earth.google.com/web/@52.98557991,-3.04801827,121.37872454a,485.21312258d,35y,0h,0t,0r

 

Phil

[gismorail]

I think it is Ruabon certainly the waste ground in the foreground indicates where the Llangollen platform approaches and sidings were once not to mention the Church tower. The second photograph more or less confirms Ruabon with the bow bridge at an angle. The main road out of the town used going go alongside the railway boundary with a bad junction heading off towards Cefn Mawr  some 1/4 of a mile pasted the bridge the line to Llangollen and beyond branched off to the west. As per Google maps a roundabout has replaced the road junction

[pH]

Perhaps taken from just off Llangollen Road, a bit south of Ruabon? The Llangollen Road bridge over the railway is a skew metal bridge. If so, the road on the other side of the line is now a footpath.

 

(Edit - Gismorail posted while I was typing.)

Edited November 10, 2018 by pH

[Oldddudders]

Oldddudders is right about the A49 south of Shrewsbury - but that was lower quadrant territory IIRC, we have an UQ in the first picture.

Good point, Phil. And although I can clearly recall Marshbrook’s Up Distant having a solar panel, I can’t recall if it was upper or lower quadrant!

 

As it happens, only a year or so after the OP’s pics, I was sauntering down the A49 one Saturday morning when I saw KGV heading north. Doing a swift about turn, it was pedal to the metal to try and get ahead, with 100 bhp of Lancia twin-cam getting the gun! I shot up the Stretton by-pass - no lights at the bottom of Sandford Avenue in those days - and I think stopped at Dorrington, sure I must have been ahead of the train by now. And waited and waited and waited. Zilch. So back to Stretton, where water was being taken from a bowser in the station. Oh, well. Then off over the Mynd to lunch at Wentnor or Bridges, no doubt, where Deb and multiple friends would have tied up their horses outside the pub!

[The Stationmaster]

Oldddudders is right about the A49 south of Shrewsbury - but that was lower quadrant territory IIRC, we have an UQ in the first picture.

 

And that church looks distinctive - St Mary's Ruabon perhaps? 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=saint+mary%27s+church+Ruabon&rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB569GB631&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUoNKC38reAhWnCMAKHS4KDwsQ_AUIECgD&biw=1093&bih=526#imgrc=ip1Q47gUqNHLuM:

 

Which puts us here if we are in agreement - KGV heading south

 

https://earth.google.com/web/@52.98557991,-3.04801827,121.37872454a,485.21312258d,35y,0h,0t,0r

 

Phil

 

But there were some UQ signals south of Salop Phil - I have a photo of one ( the Down Starter) at Church Stretton

[Trev52A]

Sorted! Ruabon it is, then. Many thanks for all the replies.

 

This one must have been too easy - I'll have to dig out some more with less to go on!

 

Cheers

Trevor

[Phil Bullock]

Sorted! Ruabon it is, then. Many thanks for all the replies.

 

This one must have been too easy - I'll have to dig out some more with less to go on!

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

Welcome Trev - really enjoyed your contributions to the end of steam in 1968 thread so glad to be able to put something back for you

 

For some reason once I had decided it was north of Shrewsbury I was drawn to Ruabon....

 

As for any more.....bring em on! Good fun

 

Phil

[Trev52A]

 

….. As for any more.....bring em on! Good fun

 

Phil

 

OK Phil, since you asked..

 

Does anyone recognise this field?!

 

6000 northbound, also taken on 23rd April 1977. This was taken earlier in the day when the loco was heading the 'Severn Valley Ltd' special between Hereford and Chester, before it returned on the 'Cathedrals Express' special shown on the original post. (The train had originated on the SVR using their stock and had arrived at Hereford behind 47012.)

 

 

It must have been taken between Hereford and Shrewsbury, probably nearer to the former. This looks like quite a good photo location so perhaps someone has views from there on another occasion.

 

Once we get this one cleared up I'll upload a shot of 'Princess Royal' No 6201 taken on the same day.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Thanks again in advance

Trevor

[Phil Bullock]

So - northbound. No sign of A49 in picture but there is a watercourse in the field before we get to the ridge - is the A49 is between that and the ridge?

 

Wondering about Marshbrook

 

https://earth.google.com/web/@52.50249731,-2.82136953,163.88669302a,592.57459049d,35y,0h,0t,0r

 

https://farm1.static.flickr.com/798/26220223457_56623e36ae_b.jpg

 

Fence line looks right too.....

 

Phil

Edited November 11, 2018 by Phil Bullock

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that may have been the trip that I was on (I don't do many main line steam excursions). And I thought Ruabon too.

 

KGV had a few issues with overbridges. Reballasting of the track led to reduced clearances.

[Trev52A]

@ Phil Bullock

 

I think you are right, Phil! What a super 'now' photo you provided.

 

Apart from the obvious same(?) high ridge in the background, which has understandably changed due to tree growth, the shallow cutting the train is emerging from and the slope of the field leading down to that feature seem identical to me.

 

So unless someone else chips in I am happy to go with Marshbrook, although sadly when I tried to check on Google Earth street view the trees and bushes in the foreground prevented me from getting the same viewpoint .

 

Regards

Trevor

[Trev52A]

As intimated earlier, here are a couple of shots of 6201 working the southbound 'Severn Valley Limited' special on the same day, 23rd April 1977.

Both were taken between Chester and Shrewsbury (I know this because a later shot was actually marked 'Shrewsbury' on the slide mount). They were taken in the order they are shown and both include lower quadrant signals, if that helps.

 

 

I have tried looking on Google Earth to no avail - either trees now block the views or 'Street View' is not activated out in this part of the countryside - so I'm hoping someone with local knowledge or similar photos can help (Phil?) 

 

Thanks again

Trevor

[Gareth 73]

The northbound king pic is nearer little stretton rather than marshbrook. I would say the old a49 bridge is just behind u where the start of the stretton bypass is

 

 

The 1st 6201 pic looks to be on the bank up out of salop going towards Chester I'm sure that's where crewe junctio distant signal is but its 13 years since I worked crewe junction so might b wrong

Edited November 12, 2018 by Gareth 73

[Bulleidnutter]

Slowly but surely that set of coaches is being restored/ repainted. Leading brake is 6562 which has not long been outshopped, then comes 9615, which is being totally reframed, then 9627 as the dining open. 4 SKs 1116, 2119,1086 and 1087 (I think) then the much missed Clapham buffet (bar car), what looks like 5883 and then 2 composites one of which would be 7284 but not quite certain on the other one. Out of all those coaches only 4 are non runners at this time. Not bad for nearly 30 years on from these photos.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Bulleidnutter

[big jim]

I’d put money on the 2nd pic of the princess being Weston Rhyn looking toward chirk from ‘old chirk road’, the signal having a subsidiary arm into the now removed loop at Weston rhyn

 

The road bridge in the distance being trehowel Avenue

Edited November 12, 2018 by big jim

[beast66606]

I’d put money on the 2nd pic of the princess being Weston Rhyn looking toward chirk from ‘old chirk road’, the signal having a subsidiary arm into the now removed loop at Weston rhyn

 

The road bridge in the distance being trehowel Avenue

 

Agree with that Jim

 

https://goo.gl/maps/c68N2R3YoxK2

[beast66606]

I think I was at Chester when these ran, I've certainly got photos of both at Chester around that time

[Phil Bullock]

Great stuff gentlemen

 

The railway north of Shrewsbury isnt so familiar to me and my poxy old laptop has been on a go slow tonight....

 

Any more for sorting Trev?

 

Phil

[big jim]

The first princess picture is bugging me big time!

 

admittedly as gareth73 said i immediatly thought of the climb out of salop (coton hill) but it doesnt add up, the up distant is a lot futher back and the only arch bridge is a lot lot taller than the one in the pic and its on an embankment rather than a slight cutting and of course the OP says its going south, the climb is northbound!

 

If as the OP says they are taken in order then Part of me says it’s somewhere near bersham looking toward Wrexham but I think there are one too many bridges (you can see a longer shadow through the bridge hole which could be Ruabon tunnel), the distant could be for croes newydd south but the skyline in the distance looks wrong but I’m also (subliminally) seeing the old Wrexham lager tower and brewery, all of course in ruabon red brick!

 

the change in gradient is quite pronounced in the picture too which as I sign the route should jump out at me but it’s not!

 

thing I’ve got to bear in mind though is when the photo was taken I was only 2 years old so an awful lot will have changed in the last 40 years!

 

EDIT: im now thinking its south of ruabon in the rhosymedre, plas madoc area looking north, basically two bridges down from the metal skewed llangollen rd bridge (maybe thats what the long shadow is?) as featured in the original post, the buildings in the distance being ruabon, the red herring being the pointy tower, ruabon church (and indeed wrexham) dont have pointy spires

Edited November 13, 2018 by big jim

[Swindon 123]

The first princess picture is bugging me big time!

 

If as the OP says they are taken in order then Part of me says it’s somewhere near bersham looking toward Wrexham but I think there are one too many bridges (you can see a longer shadow through the bridge hole which could be Ruabon tunnel), the distant could be for croes newydd south but the skyline in the distance looks wrong but I’m also (subliminally) seeing the old Wrexham lager tower and brewery, all of course in ruabon red brick!

 

the change in gradient is quite pronounced in the picture too which as I sign the route should jump out at me but it’s not!

 

thing I’ve got to bear in mind though is when the photo was taken I was only 2 years old so an awful lot will have changed in the last 40 years!

I think you are in the right ballpark Jim. I'm also convinced the photo is looking towards Wrexham and Ruabon Road tunnel and probably taken with a telephoto lens, which would exaggerate the gradient changes. I think the photo was taken from a footpath that crosses the line just north of the Glanyrafon Brook, at which point the line is in a shallow cutting, (the footpath needs steps to get down to track level). In the background is a church spire, which I think is Wrexham Cathedral, The Cathedral Church of Our Lady of Sorrows. The signals in the photo would be, on the left, Bershams section/starter signal, with the distant for, what was then Croes Newydd South Fork signal box, whilst the signals on the right, just behind the rear of the train, would be the latters section/starter with Bershams distant beneath.

 

Paul J.

[Trev52A]

Thanks once again for the suggestions regarding the shots of 6201 this time, particularly to big jim.

 

The second view (on the curve) must definitely be just south of Chirk. The distinctive houses seen in the background above the train are still there today as per Google Earth Street View.

 

The first one seems to be less obvious. We are looking for a fairly long straight and going by Google Earth again, two possible locations stand out - just south of Wrexham and just south of Ruabon, both put forward by big jim.

 

The former is tempting - the stone bridge to the rear of the train could well be today's Bersham Road - but where was my vantage point? It would appear I was on a bridge looking down on the train, but even allowing for the foreshortening caused by the telephoto lens (135mm) there is (now) no bridge for quite a distance to the south which I could have stood on. Up a signal post or similar, perhaps? Unlikely, as I was always wary of even standing inside the fence, never mind trespassing up railway structures.

Paul J. agrees with this location and suggests a footpath across the tracks just north of Glanyrafon Brook - presumably this lead down the embankment and crossed at  track level and I could have been standing at the top of the bank. I'm struggling to find the Brook or the footpath on Google Earth - perhaps they are too small to see on the map? Are they north of a couple of bridges which the tracks cross on this long straight? There is no sign of the bridges on my picture. And there is the compelling evidence of the spire which could well be Wrexham Cathedral in the background.

 

Jim's second suggestion, that the picture was taken from the second bridge south of the skew bridge at Ruabon (which appeared in my first post in this topic) also seems to fit the bill rather well, apart from the church(?) spire which seems to be on the horizon. Ruabon Cathedral has a tower and the more modest Methodist Church has neither a tower nor a spire. Could it be some sort of optical illusion, or completely un-church related? Sadly the background is out of focus and the structure is not clear enough to be definite.

 

I'm not going to commit one way or the other at the moment, although I'm leaning slightly towards Wrexham!

 

Here are a couple more from 23rd April 1977 to think about, featuring 6000 on the northbound 'Severn Valley Ltd' with the GW stock.

 

This was one of the first pics I took that morning so it must be fairly close to Hereford I would guess. I nice location we thought at the time - not realising the alignment of the track on the curve would hide part of the wheels on the far track!

 

This was taken after the earlier one I posted at Marshbrook, so it must be north of there.

 

I hope people are enjoying the detective work!

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

 

 

 

 

[big jim]

right picture 1 of the princess im going to say wrexham too now, still cant work out the vantage point but compare to this ariel shot of wrexham from 1973

 

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/150_exhibition/aerial_images3.htm

 

lets start with the spire, as pointed out possibly st marys cathedral, however look very very carefully in front of it on the 6201 picture and you can see what last night i thought to be a fire station training tower which very conveniently in the link above happens to be in pretty much the right place

 

moving right on the 6201 pic, a long white fronted building maybe? in the linked picture the shopping centre and car park are light and again appear to be in the right place

 

finally moving to the far right of the trees the final dark 'tree' to the right just before the smoke could actually be the other big church in wrexham (st giles)

 

trying to figure out what the towers are too the left of the 6201 pics are though, i think one is the 'new' brewery

 

some more ariel pics from 1973 here

 

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/150_exhibition/aerial_views.htm

[Swindon 123]

Thanks once again for the suggestions regarding the shots of 6201 this time, particularly to big jim.

 

The second view (on the curve) must definitely be just south of Chirk. The distinctive houses seen in the background above the train are still there today as per Google Earth Street View.

 

The first one seems to be less obvious. We are looking for a fairly long straight and going by Google Earth again, two possible locations stand out - just south of Wrexham and just south of Ruabon, both put forward by big jim.

 

The former is tempting - the stone bridge to the rear of the train could well be today's Bersham Road - but where was my vantage point? It would appear I was on a bridge looking down on the train, but even allowing for the foreshortening caused by the telephoto lens (135mm) there is (now) no bridge for quite a distance to the south which I could have stood on. Up a signal post or similar, perhaps? Unlikely, as I was always wary of even standing inside the fence, never mind trespassing up railway structures.

Paul J. agrees with this location and suggests a footpath across the tracks just north of Glanyrafon Brook - presumably this lead down the embankment and crossed at  track level and I could have been standing at the top of the bank. I'm struggling to find the Brook or the footpath on Google Earth - perhaps they are too small to see on the map? Are they north of a couple of bridges which the tracks cross on this long straight? There is no sign of the bridges on my picture. And there is the compelling evidence of the spire which could well be Wrexham Cathedral in the background.

 

Jim's second suggestion, that the picture was taken from the second bridge south of the skew bridge at Ruabon (which appeared in my first post in this topic) also seems to fit the bill rather well, apart from the church(?) spire which seems to be on the horizon. Ruabon Cathedral has a tower and the more modest Methodist Church has neither a tower nor a spire. Could it be some sort of optical illusion, or completely un-church related? Sadly the background is out of focus and the structure is not clear enough to be definite.

 

I'm not going to commit one way or the other at the moment, although I'm leaning slightly towards Wrexham!

 

Here are a couple more from 23rd April 1977 to think about, featuring 6000 on the northbound 'Severn Valley Ltd' with the GW stock.

 

(1008aS) 6000 Heref-Chester 'SVLtd '23-4-77 (T Ermel) .jpg

This was one of the first pics I took that morning so it must be fairly close to Hereford I would guess. I nice location we thought at the time - not realising the alignment of the track on the curve would hide part of the wheels on the far track!

 

(T0198aS) 6000 on SVLtd Heref-Chester 23-4-77 (TE) .jpg

This was taken after the earlier one I posted at Marshbrook, so it must be north of there.

 

I hope people are enjoying the detective work!

 

Cheers

Trevor

The first one is just north of Hereford, between Shelwick Junction and Moreton-on-Lugg. The railway here takes a long sweeping LH curve looking north at this point. the track is very heavily canted, hence the difficulty in getting a good photo from down the bank. Heres one on my Flickr site, taken from in the trees on the bank above KGV, although not of the same train.  37124. [JC6-099] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

The second photo is at Baschurch, with Baschurch signal box poking above the 1st & 2nd coaches. Don't be fooled by the signal next to the 3rd track over, as it applies to the Up line, which is the 2nd track over. The 3rd track was a layby siding. the distant is for Eyton LC.

 

Paul J.